Tekton Paradigm DIY replication, help needed!

[trulsrohk]

Tekton Pendragon DIY replication, help needed!

Hello everyone, as my first big DIY project I will be looking (in most ways) to replicate the Tekton Pendragon speakers.

Before proceeding and ordering parts I would like some feedback and/or confirmation based on some research and assumptions on my part (always dangerous just assuming i suppose)

First assumption is that it is simply a 2-way system with the lower frequencies going to two Eminence Delta-10A 10" Midrange Driver 8 Ohm (which seem to be the woofers used, i may use a different one)

And the highs going to 3 https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...sb29rdcn-c000-4-neo-magnet-ring-dome-tweeter/

(I plan on either using those tweeters or substituting these https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...b-acoustics-sb29rdc-c000-4-ring-dome-tweeter/).

If it is indeed a simple two-way design, does anyone know the crossover points? I will be bi-amping with an electronic crossover, so I have plenty of flexibility, but it would be nice to know what the point is that seems to work well with those particular drivers.

Lastly, given the woofers used and this Tekton Pendragon Loudspeaker Review review it seems that the enclosure is basically functioning as an extended bass shelf design and counting on room gain from the rear ports to give it the frequency response it has.


So I guess basically I am just looking for confirmation of my assumptions and any other, more specific info/expertise that some of you all might have.

Thank you much! 😀

 

[xrk971]

I was looking into somethning similar with this thread. Never got too far but there may be some useful info here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/240591-slay-pen-dragon.html

 

[trulsrohk]

Yeah thanks, I did glean some of my information from there ��

You see anything wrong with my assumptions?

 

[xrk971]

Yeah thanks, I did glean some of my information from there ��

You see anything wrong with my assumptions?

I think your assumptions are good. I am not sure about Tekton's avid use of multiple dome tweeters though. It will cause frequency combing effects and not be the best for spatial coherency. For the price of three of those tweeters I would go with a higher sensitivity ribbon or AMT pleated diaphragm tweeter. This is not a criticism of your assumptions but of the Tekton approach in general.

I may have the Pendragon XO somewhere - let me see if I can dig it up.

since you are going active DSP it will be easier to just measure each driver and decide on best XO.

Edit: according to my notes and sims, the XO used for the triple SB Acoustics SB29 tweeters and the Delta 10B woofers, was a 4th order LR high pass for the tweeters and a second order LR low pass for the woofers - the frequency is such that the acoustical XO is at 2kHz.

Here is the script for the XO in Akabak:

|Power amp input at node=1  ground at node=0
| Tweeters connect at nodes 102=104=105=0
| Woofers connect at nodes 201=0
| Tweeter 4th order high pass Linkwitz Riley
  Capacitor    'C1'  Node=1=101  C=4.3uF  Rs=7.23mohm
  Capacitor    'C2'  Node=101=102  C=8.2uF  Rs=5.6mohm
  Coil    'L1'  Node=101=0  L=0.4mH  Rs=0.296ohm
  Coil    'L2'  Node=102=0  L=1.8mH  Rs=0.457ohm
| Woofer second order low pass Linkwitz Riley
  Coil    'L3'  Node=1=201  L=2.0mH  Rs=0.48ohm
  Capacitor    'C3'  Node=201=0  C=20uF  Rs=3.6mohm
| Tweeter Equalization
  Resistor    'Req-tweeter'  Node=102=103  R=9.1ohm  | 9.1 ohm
  Capacitor    'Ceq-tweeter'  Node=103=0  C=2uF
| Woofer Equalization
  Resistor    'Req-woofer'  Node=201=202  R=5.6ohm
  Capacitor    'Ceq-woofer'  Node=202=0  C=12uF
  Resistor    'Rm-woofer'  Node=202=203  R=0.22ohm
  Capacitor    'Cm-woofer'  Node=204=0  C=1200uF
  Coil    'Lm-woofer'  Node=203=204  L=5mH
| End Cross Over

 

[trulsrohk]

Some great info thanks!

I'll be sure to get an active crossover that can do 24dB an octave for the high pass then.

And yeah, I have heard the criticisms/concerns with the stacked tweeters, i may or may not choose to do something different there.

If I do go with the same tweeter setup, do you foresee any issues with wiring those in series parallel to present a 6 ohm load to the amp that will be driving them?

 

[planet10]

I am not sure about Tekton's avid use of multiple dome tweeters though. It will cause frequency combing effects and not be the best for spatial coherency. For the price of three of those tweeters I would go with a higher sensitivity ribbon or AMT pleated diaphragm tweeter. This is not a criticism of your assumptions but of the Tekton approach in general.

+1

dave

 

[Scottmoose]

+2. Still, they seem to be doing something that appeals to a few people at least, so horses for courses & all that. That said, I for one have significant reservations about using those Eminence woofers higher than @500Hz for a start. The triple-tweeter idea doesn't enchant me either, although possibly more than ribbons do in a 2-way (most have lousy HD < c.3KHz).

 

[trulsrohk]

I get the objections to the tweeters, but what would be the reservations with running up to even 3k or so with a woofer like the Eminence provided it has nice smooth frequency response up into that range?

 

[sreten]

Hi,

You can do a lot better as your first project.

It may be a 2 way, but I don't like that tweeter array, in
fact there is nothing much about it I like for $2.5K. Its a
pretty lousy two way in all sensible respects I can see.

The tweeter array has lobing issues, the twin bassmids
have lobing issues and are all over the place for a 2KHz x/o.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/290-412-eminence-delta-10a-specifications-44326.pdf

Its all wrong, basically a glorified pair of PA speakers that the
only good thing they do is go loud, and the rest is just very poor.

This review contains just about everything I abhor about the gutter press :
Tekton Design Pendragon Floorstanding Loudspeaker Reviewed
All the warning signs are there. Complete and utter unmitigated nonsense.
Same level of drivel here :
http://hometheaterreview.com/tekton-design-m-lore-loudspeaker-reviewed/
A totally clueless, self opiniated, self justify so called "reviewer".
Sadly, some will take him very seriously ... big mistake ...

rgds, sreten.

 

[planet10]

I get the objections to the tweeters, but what would be the reservations with running up to even 3k or so with a woofer like the Eminence provided it has nice smooth frequency response up into that range?

My biggest reservation is that ideally the the 1/4 wavelength of C-C distance of the midbasses is the ideal maximum crossover point...

These look to me to be an excersize in talking advantage of the popularity of the Zu Audio speakers.

dave

 

[xrk971]

+2. Still, they seem to be doing something that appeals to a few people at least, so horses for courses & all that. That said, I for one have significant reservations about using those Eminence woofers higher than @500Hz for a start. The triple-tweeter idea doesn't enchant me either, although possibly more than ribbons do in a 2-way (most have lousy HD < c.3KHz).

I don't have any experience with ribbons but my ESS Heil AMT has low HD above 750Hz. It can cross at any freq above that as it has a flat impedance curve. Wonderful articulate transient response.

 

[chrisb]

Well, the issue with the Eminence is that it doesn't extend smoothly that high - while spec'd to 3700, it has an fairly substantial rise from 900 to peak around 2800 or so, then drops like a rock. Fine for a lead or bass guitar, but perhaps to much "presence" in the vocal range if run that high?

http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/290-412-eminence-delta-10a-specifications-44326.pdf

Dual Alpair 12PW and Dayton AMTPRO4, Fountek Neo 2 or 3 series ribbons, actively bi-amped? It's not altogether clear how much budget is a consideration here, and I could say that the Alpairs are not inexpensive, but as 3 per side of either of the 2 SB tweeters, and 2 of the Delta mid woofers cited as candidates would be broaching $370 per side, the Alpairs and a ribbon might be comfortably close to that figure.

Many of the ribbon / AMT / planar candidates want to see XOs smack in the middle of the telephone band, which is always nice to avoid, while the SB domes are shown measured at 2600- which I'd be inclined to take as manufacturer's recommendation.

Yes, the Heil AMT should still be considered a world class driver although at $350 ea, a bit pricy, and as a dipole device, I'd imagine more complicated to implement in an MTM configuration.

 

[Scottmoose]

What reservations with running the Eminence up to ~3KHz? Plenty, because even one of them can't manage it. Two, widely spaced? No thanks.

AMTs can be very good (I'm very familiar with Beyma's models), but standard ribbons can't get low enough for most MTM use, and that's before you start to consider the directivity issues.

 

[trulsrohk]

Some really good info here, thanks. I appreciate good sound, but know enough to know I'm not a golden eared audiophile. And part of the appeal for me on these are the simplicity of two way design, the spl, and the power handling. I will be running 550 watts to the woofers at 4 ohms and 250-300 to tweets

 

[planet10]

And part of the appeal for me on these are the simplicity of two way design, the spl, and the power handling. I will be running 550 watts to the woofers at 4 ohms and 250-300 to tweets

1-way designs are even simplier (with 2 mid-bass & 3 tweeter this is not a simple 2-way).

Power handling is notall that relevant in home hifi... with the sensitivity if these midbass you are going to be in hearing damage range with less than 10w... which hi-lites another potential reason for 3 tweeters, a band-aid to get the sensitivity of the HF up to that of what is below.

dave

 

[Dissi]

I am just looking for confirmation of my assumptions

The impedance plot of the Tekton Pendragon published by Stereo Mojo allows to do some reverse engineering and even to conclude on the crossover.

The woofers certainly are not Delta-10A, it's a driver with much lower Fs. Hints on the net (Legend series, 4 and 8 ohm version) led me to the conclusion that it's more likely the Eminence Legend BP 102.

A simulation of the reverse engineered speaker shows a crossover at 2 kHz.

 

[trulsrohk]

The impedance plot of the Tekton Pendragon published by Stereo Mojo allows to do some reverse engineering and even to conclude on the crossover.

The woofers certainly are not Delta-10A, it's a driver with much lower Fs. Hints on the net (Legend series, 4 and 8 ohm version) led me to the conclusion that it's more likely the Eminence Legend BP 102.

A simulation of the reverse engineered speaker shows a crossover at 2 kHz.

great info thanks! Does that by chance have the port tuned to around 20hz or so in line with stereo moho's review findings?

I do appreciate all the feedback as well

 

[xrk971]

I do recall they were identified as BP102's by one of the reviews. The 2khz XO matches what I posted earlier. The inpedance plot above indicates tuning at 40Hz.

 

[Dissi]

The tuning frequency actually is the impedance minimum between the two peaks and is 30 Hz. You need at least a 5" port, length around 10". 🙂

 

[planet10]

Does that by chance have the port tuned to around 20hz or so in line with stereo moho's review findings?

The impedance curve says they are tuned to about 30 Hz.

dave