Technics SP-10 and SL-1200 motor units are known for torque and speed stability. Are there any other budget alternative to these direct drives ? if possible only motor units without tonearm.
Thanks and Regards.
Thanks and Regards.
The SP-10 is a turntable w/o base and tonearm. Also, the SP-110, SP-15, SP-25, etc., as well as other brands.
I would spend some time on vinylengine.com doing research
I would spend some time on vinylengine.com doing research
Denon did make bare motor/platter units. Not sure about their model numbers.
Quite rare compared to Technics though.
Quite rare compared to Technics though.
Any of the motor-only units from other manufactures will likely be more expensive, harder to repair and support, and perform more poorly.
There is a renaissance in people paying attention to the good Direct-Drive turntables, they will all be expensive. I suspect that a SL-1200 will be the most affordable, and certainly the best performing for the total money spent. Motor-only units need many other bits to get them to work, (Plinth and Arm to start...) and it all adds up very quickly.
There is a renaissance in people paying attention to the good Direct-Drive turntables, they will all be expensive. I suspect that a SL-1200 will be the most affordable, and certainly the best performing for the total money spent. Motor-only units need many other bits to get them to work, (Plinth and Arm to start...) and it all adds up very quickly.
lHi,
You may also strip any of the earlier Technics DDs that feature the typical green stator coil design and build a new plinth.
Preferrably of course the Quartz-Lock types.
SL-Q2 for example or the older SL-5210 or OEMs like Grundig.
The higher momentary torque of Your examples is no advantage whatsoever for home useage, as it only allows a greater range of load.
Such amount of torque is only needed for very fast startup and to keep the platter on speed when breaking by hand.
I personally don't mind if it takes just 1/4 revolution or a complete 1/1 revolution to speed up and once running almost no torque is required to keep the speed.
As otherwise motors, bearings and electronics are the same, there's no need to spend more money on the typically overprized overhyped high-torquers.
Take for example a SL-Q2 of decent condition, strip it, do a little servicing (damping the platter, polish bearing and spindle, reoil, recap electronics, maybe even a new supply/regulator), build a decent plinth and combine with a good arm and cartridge.
Besides beeing transformed into a personalized unique piece it probabely will even sound better.
jauu
Calvin
You may also strip any of the earlier Technics DDs that feature the typical green stator coil design and build a new plinth.
Preferrably of course the Quartz-Lock types.
SL-Q2 for example or the older SL-5210 or OEMs like Grundig.
The higher momentary torque of Your examples is no advantage whatsoever for home useage, as it only allows a greater range of load.
Such amount of torque is only needed for very fast startup and to keep the platter on speed when breaking by hand.
I personally don't mind if it takes just 1/4 revolution or a complete 1/1 revolution to speed up and once running almost no torque is required to keep the speed.
As otherwise motors, bearings and electronics are the same, there's no need to spend more money on the typically overprized overhyped high-torquers.
Take for example a SL-Q2 of decent condition, strip it, do a little servicing (damping the platter, polish bearing and spindle, reoil, recap electronics, maybe even a new supply/regulator), build a decent plinth and combine with a good arm and cartridge.
Besides beeing transformed into a personalized unique piece it probabely will even sound better.
jauu
Calvin
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Thanks for suggestions BrianL, Charles, 6L6, Calvin and Arch
I guess one mentioned as SP-110 is SL-110 and other Denon DP 6000.
SL-1200 is always preferable. And probably in budget of most of the people too. I have SL-Q3 and it has green coils. Any specific advantage of green coils ? I am graphic designer with little knowledge of electronics, but I do read technical articles.
Torque is contentious issue. Excellence is always preferred but for budget minded people there ought to be some conclusive (just little more than conservative figure) of torque required and audible speed accuracy which all agree upon.
I guess one mentioned as SP-110 is SL-110 and other Denon DP 6000.
SL-1200 is always preferable. And probably in budget of most of the people too. I have SL-Q3 and it has green coils. Any specific advantage of green coils ? I am graphic designer with little knowledge of electronics, but I do read technical articles.
Torque is contentious issue. Excellence is always preferred but for budget minded people there ought to be some conclusive (just little more than conservative figure) of torque required and audible speed accuracy which all agree upon.
Hi,
To me it seems like this is due to a lot of people talking about DD without knowing about how the servos function.
I've written someting on that theme on my website under projects/phono/directdrive.
It seems that people think, that with a DD the platter receives multiple discrete, short pushes with the full torque.
This is not the case. The motor supplies a constant small amount of torque to account for friction losses from the bearing, needle drag and maybe a brush.
If a disturbance occurs the system reacts in a sliding way, increasing or decreasing torque softly.
The difference to full possible torque doesn't increase regulation speed or precision, but only allows for a larger load range.
Now if You slow down platter speed intentionally and regularly high torque is of use.
For typical home useage it is not.
The 'green coil' is representative for the 3phase iron-cored motor Technics used from the beginning on.
From about the early-90s on Technics and most other manufacturers simplified to 2-phase coreless motors with lower numbers of coils.
The motor became an integral part of a subassembly, containing the electronics (FG-and PLL-servos only) and bearing at the same .... easy and cheap to manufacture and used rather in the lowcost entry range.
Typically the assemblies reduced building height also.
Combined with ever lower platter- and overall turntable weight and ever more use of plastic the players looked and felt cheap.
The magnet used in these assemblies is a flat disc with the coils mounted on a PCB immediately below the rotating magnet disc.
So the difference in the drive systems between the good old drives and the younger cheapies is obvious as soon as You lift the platter off of the spindle.
jauu
Calvin
Yes, that may well be.
To me it seems like this is due to a lot of people talking about DD without knowing about how the servos function.
I've written someting on that theme on my website under projects/phono/directdrive.
It seems that people think, that with a DD the platter receives multiple discrete, short pushes with the full torque.
This is not the case. The motor supplies a constant small amount of torque to account for friction losses from the bearing, needle drag and maybe a brush.
If a disturbance occurs the system reacts in a sliding way, increasing or decreasing torque softly.
The difference to full possible torque doesn't increase regulation speed or precision, but only allows for a larger load range.
Now if You slow down platter speed intentionally and regularly high torque is of use.
For typical home useage it is not.
The 'green coil' is representative for the 3phase iron-cored motor Technics used from the beginning on.
From about the early-90s on Technics and most other manufacturers simplified to 2-phase coreless motors with lower numbers of coils.
The motor became an integral part of a subassembly, containing the electronics (FG-and PLL-servos only) and bearing at the same .... easy and cheap to manufacture and used rather in the lowcost entry range.
Typically the assemblies reduced building height also.
Combined with ever lower platter- and overall turntable weight and ever more use of plastic the players looked and felt cheap.
The magnet used in these assemblies is a flat disc with the coils mounted on a PCB immediately below the rotating magnet disc.
So the difference in the drive systems between the good old drives and the younger cheapies is obvious as soon as You lift the platter off of the spindle.
jauu
Calvin
Thanks Calvin. I read the translated article on your website. The essence of what you are saying is for home use where we don't start and stop the turntable too often the torque is sufficient. I presume that covers the stylus drag too. Also If I put a load on the drive system, for example a center weight the speed will adjust itself and probably due to added load would over come stylus drag too. If at all one wants to be sure. Am I right ?
Just for the sake of the thread; Sony also had TTS-3000 motor unit. Don't know how good they were. Here (India) I see classic Garrards, Thorens, Lencos some times, but never a separate direct drive motor unit.
Regards
Just for the sake of the thread; Sony also had TTS-3000 motor unit. Don't know how good they were. Here (India) I see classic Garrards, Thorens, Lencos some times, but never a separate direct drive motor unit.
Regards
Hi,
in 80's flyers Technics showed diagrams and numbers, talking of their drives beeing able to pull (iirc) more than 100 needles through the groove at the same.
Well, the PLL doesn't loose its lock even if the torque would only be sufficient for say the drag of 10 needles. 😉
jauu
Calvin
in 80's flyers Technics showed diagrams and numbers, talking of their drives beeing able to pull (iirc) more than 100 needles through the groove at the same.
Well, the PLL doesn't loose its lock even if the torque would only be sufficient for say the drag of 10 needles. 😉
jauu
Calvin
Don't know how much force is required for cutting vinyl. Wasn't some similar SP model used for cutting lathe ?
Regards.
Regards.
The SP-10Mk3 was based on the cutting lathe motor. Good Mk3 trade for about $10,000 USD. Sometimes much more.
Hi,
here´s an excerpt from the SL-1300mkii service manual.
The 1200mkii, as well as the 1400mkii and 1500mkii feature the same specs.
The maximum starting torque of the motor is 1.5kg*cm with a motor supply voltage of 21V.
The platters look differently but are almost identical in inertia.
The same motor used in the SL-5210/5310/-Q2/-Q3, supplied with 12V delivers a starting torque of 1kg*cm. As those platters are only slightly lighter and less inertial the startup time is a bit longer.
As one may read from the SM-excerpt Technics the 1.5kg*cm torque is good or 300g of stylus pressure.
And from Fig.2 one can see that for any load less than the starting torque the speed deviation is 0.
So Technics themselves state that as long as You stay within the torque limits of the motor, there´s absolutely no difference between the low-torque and the high-torque motor.
The 1/3 lower torque of the lower voltage models would calculate to 200g stylus pressure without any speed deviation.
Stay below this load and you can´t differentiate between the speed performance of all above named models.
jauu
Calvin
here´s an excerpt from the SL-1300mkii service manual.
The 1200mkii, as well as the 1400mkii and 1500mkii feature the same specs.
The maximum starting torque of the motor is 1.5kg*cm with a motor supply voltage of 21V.
The platters look differently but are almost identical in inertia.
The same motor used in the SL-5210/5310/-Q2/-Q3, supplied with 12V delivers a starting torque of 1kg*cm. As those platters are only slightly lighter and less inertial the startup time is a bit longer.
As one may read from the SM-excerpt Technics the 1.5kg*cm torque is good or 300g of stylus pressure.
And from Fig.2 one can see that for any load less than the starting torque the speed deviation is 0.
So Technics themselves state that as long as You stay within the torque limits of the motor, there´s absolutely no difference between the low-torque and the high-torque motor.
The 1/3 lower torque of the lower voltage models would calculate to 200g stylus pressure without any speed deviation.
Stay below this load and you can´t differentiate between the speed performance of all above named models.
jauu
Calvin
Attachments
Here is a Denon that actually uses the same motor as their cutting lathes:
Denon DP-100 on thevintageknob.org
Makes the SP-10 look puny and is remarkably similar to the later EMT 948/950.
Seriously rare but there is one for sale at €24 000!
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