Support Peace! What can WE do....??

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#2,821
DIY_Peter said:
I did some reading on the web about it and most articles state that the us is spending more on prisons than on higher education.
Click to expand...

Please show me an article which says this. Prison spending has increased faster than spending on higher education (a fact widely reported in the US media), but that's something entirely different.

Most of the inmates are black.
Click to expand...

Please show me an article which says this. African Americans are disproportionately represented in the prison population, but that's something entirely different.

Building more prisons isn't going to bring the number of offenders down.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more, but's important to get the facts right. Lies in support of a larger truth are still lies.
 
#2,822
please Rob, get your head out of the sand. I just typed in "education prison budget" or something like that in google and read a few of the results. All of them said that spending on prisons was rising and spending on education was going down. Some of them also stated (don't remember which state it was) that they spend about three times as much on prisons than on higher education.

Most of them also said that african american inmated where in the majority.

But I probably just happend to pick all the falls negative articles 🙂
Strange that somehow I only get to see the negative things about america. I bet it's a european conspiracy. There probably filtering all my media. Yes that's it!
 
#2,824
Something different now.

There was a funny program on BBCWORLD yesterday. "what the world thinks about america"

They did a worldwide poll and the outcome was that a majority of the people think that the USA is less dangerous than Al-Qaeda.
Although that's not really true, I can understand that, since they've seen so much bad things about Al-qaeda.
Al -qaeda was on the other hand the only one they won against.
Even N.Korea, Iran and Syria were considered to be less dangerous than the USA!

More than 60% of the South Koreans thought the USA was more dangerous to them then N. Korea 🙂

Then they asked if the invasion of Iraq was fair.
Israel: more than 60%
USA: 51%
UK and Australia both 16%

All the rest about 0%


You guys have a serious image problem 🙂
 
#2,825
DIY_Peter said:
. Some of them also stated (don't remember which state it was) that they spend about three times as much on prisons than on higher education.
Click to expand...

Higher education? Okay, that is only about 25% of the American population. That still leaves grades Kindergarten through 12, which is close to all of the population.

Please notice that the figures are for spending, not for actual prisoners and students. It costs between $50,000 and $75,000 to keep a prisoner. It is considerably less for a student, even a college student.

Funny thing about students-most of them will attend class willingly. However, take away iron bars, barbed wire and armed guards, and most prisoners will not attend prison. Needless to say, this requires extra expense to keep prisoners as opposed to college students.

I certainly hope that your next suggestion is not that we send armed robbers to college instead of prison to save money.
 
#2,827
I don't think it is such a bad suggestion either, if what you are talking about is giving a prisoner a chance to do college level work while he is incarcerated. Many of the people in jail come from bad neighborhoods and environments where college is not really considered an option.

I do believe that some locales do in fact allow prisoners to get degrees, or at least a good percentage of college credits toward graduation.

I was, of course, talking about sending dangerous, convicted criminals to a college dorm instead of cell block.

Actually, if they wanted to cut down on the prison population, this nation could take a long hard look at our drug laws. Some options would include legalizing marijuana and "medicalization" for heroin and cocaine, (a carefully supervised program of administration, on an outpatient basis, for those already addicted).

But that is another story. Fact is, the growth of prisons has coincided with a drop in violent crime. Some of us see a connection. 🙂
 
#2,830
DIY_Peter said:
please Rob, get your head out of the sand. I just typed in "education prison budget" or something like that in google and read a few of the results. All of them said that spending on prisons was rising and spending on education was going down.
Click to expand...

Please. You're a physicist, right? I would hope that you could understand the difference between a function, its derivative, and its second derivative. What all the articles actually say is that the rate of increase of prison spending is increasing faster than the increase in education spending is increasing. Education spending is not decreasing, nor is it less than prison spending.

Some of them also stated (don't remember which state it was) that they spend about three times as much on prisons than on higher education.
Click to expand...

That's my question -- who's "they"?

Most of them also said that african american inmated where in the majority.
Click to expand...

The link you posted:

http://www.oomo.org/who's_who_in_us_prisions.htm

precisely does not say that, and as far as I know, it's not true. Actually read the whole article, and point out to me where is says that the majority of prisoners are black. I admit, it comes close, but this article is an excellent example of "how to lie with statistics". You'd do better to look at the original source for all those figures:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/

But I probably just happend to pick all the falls negative articles 🙂
Strange that somehow I only get to see the negative things about america. I bet it's a european conspiracy. There probably filtering all my media. Yes that's it!
Click to expand...

Yeah, actually, that is it. It's a kind of demonization. The European media constantly pounds away on "what's wrong with America", taking real problems (too many African Americans are in prison) and blowing them way out of proportion, and downplaying comparable problems in Europe. It gets to the point where otherwise reasonable people are willing to believe anything, so long as it make the US look bad.

I mean, really, think about it. What kind of country would spend more on prisons than education? That would require Ceacescu-level insanity on the part of the leaders, and the people would have to be either brainwashed or brain dead to go along with it. Why, a country like that would be more dangerous than North Korea! But it's just not true.

Here's something to keep in mind: American society is more like European society than it is different. That stands to reason, after all, since most Americans are only removed from Europe by a generation or two. So when you hear that something is happening in the US that would be absolutely inconceivable in Europe, you should at least consider the possibility that it isn't conceivable here either.
 
#2,831
SY said:
There's apparently a positive correlation between crime reduction and right-to-carry laws, too, but it's impolite to bring that up.
Click to expand...

It's hard to know what to make of that, though. Crime did go down in states with liberal gun laws, but it also went down in states with strict gun laws. It went down in states with the death penalty, but it also went down in states without the death penalty. And the same for just about any anti-crime measure: crime went down with it, and crime went down without it. It's really hard to establish causality.
 
#2,836
Better warrior for Peace, using words, than ..

Better warrior with words for Peace,
than getting human blood on your hands.

This is from "Marketing Terms" thread.

It started out with some ironic comments
about american sit-coms
distrubuted and watched on TV worldwide.
Ended up in a war between Sweden and USA
contains some subjects targetting peace and war.

That is why I would like to give you an opportunity
to read this discussion.
Me and kelticwizard at least don't rsort the lowest form of argumentation.

A guy from Napa Valley, USA
stuck this away into Off Topic, unnessesary in my opinion.
I guess he is a little ashamed of some things
his country represent. And so he should be.

But gladly to say, he has also many reasons to be happy
and content for other things his country has contributed
to the world.

********************************************************************
from: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18761
********************************************************************

halojoy wrote:

... otherwise it would be dead quiet Post #1


In Sweden, and I guess in other European countries,
we have a massive amount of american "sit-coms" series
running day out and day in from morning to night.

It almost seems like it is some stuffing
between the "real programs", to fill in the spaces.

I couldn't help laughing, when I came across this post
by a fellow european. He seems to have had a similar experience
by watching dutch television.
Those planted faked laughs are very annoying.
You wouldn't have to put in artificial laughs
in a Charlie Chaplin or Oliver & Hardy movie, would you.

This statement by jean-paul surely
has its given place in this thread.
Because the technique used is to try to convince
the tv-program consumer, that something is very funny,
when it not necessarely is funny at all.

quote:

Originally posted by jean-paul
Location: The Netherlands

"Level of humor of most american comedy series that are shown here
is only enough to make some Dutch cows frown.
Good thing is that the background laughing comes from a tape
otherwise it would be quiet.
The price must be the reason that they're bought otherwise I don't see any reason
for poisoning our youth with these dumb programs."


halojoy - demands freedome of laugh

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kelticwizard wrote:

I will say this. While there are plenty of non-Americans claiming that they find American culture second-rate or worse, I cannot help but notice that foreign theaters keep showing our movies, overseas record buyers keep buying our music, (rock, jazz, blues, country), and foreign TV stations keep buying our TV shows.

Yet so many Europeans maintain that they dislike American culture.

Kelticwizard is beginning to suspect that the European way is to tell one's neighbors that you watched the symphony while in fact you gorged yourself on the Steven Seagal Movie Marathon.


__________________
"A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move a body."
-Anonymous

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halojoy wrote:

I wouldn't like most of such sit-coms, with artificial laughs
if it was from Soviet, China or from my own country.
There are swedish sit-coms, replicas of the concept,
but not so many.

Of course any critic of anything from the states
arises "the nationalistic feelings" in every true yankee.

One thought I have had:
During the Soviet era, surely the kids were indoctrinated
in school and media controlled by governement
that anything from west, especially from USA was bad.
This happend in East-germany and Russia .....

This so no more in those countries. They want to belong to EU.

But I still think indoctrination goes on in some parts
of the world, where we do not regard it as indoctrination.
Of my contacts with americans on the web
and by follwing the political propaganda from governement in charge
I have gotten the impression, that it is a true american's
duty to be patriotic and think that his country is the best
of all places on earth.
We all know that this isn't true.

Too much nationalism isn't good. You got to like your country
but there are others who are glad they were born
in other countries too.
I don't know exatly how young people are tought
by parents and school.
Can they get a coloured picture of the world today?

"What did you learn in school today, dear little boy of mine?"
(I associate this line to Bob Dylan, might be wrong)

Hitler was one example, where nationalistic propaganda/indoctrination
caused a hell for many people for decades.

I am glad I am swedish. I wouldn't like to live anywhere else.
But we swedish have a very selfcritical attitude towards
ourselves and our swedish way.
We can say in an ironic way:
"typiskt svenskt!"
"typical swedish!"
and that expression is NOT used in positive ...

Of corse there are american TV-shows I like,
Seinfeld is such a program.
But that is not the issue here. Here we have a look
at crooked things producers do to make us buy/consume
their products, whether we need them or not.
And try to convince us that those things we buy
have some special quality, said in twisted formulations.

that is the subject of this thread, kelticwizard

halojoy - hope Second 11th September won't come
but revenge and giving back is strong mechanism

****************************************************************

halojoy wrote:

Visit tom paxton web site! Post #4


What Did You Learn In School Today
Tom Paxton
--------
What did you learn in school today, dear little boy of mine?
I learned that Washington never told a lie
I learned that soldiers seldom die
I learned that everybody's free
That's what the teacher said to me
And that's what I learned in school today
That's what I learned in school

What did you learn in school today, dear little boy of mine?
I learned that policemen are my friends
I learned that justice never ends
I learned that murderers die for their crimes
Even if we make a mistake sometimes
And that's what I learned in school today
That's what I learned in school

What did you learn in school today, dear little boy of mine?
I learned that war is not so bad
I learned about the great ones we have had
We fought in Germany and in France
And someday I might get my chance
And that's what I learned in school today
That's what I learned in school

What did you learn in school today, dear little boy of mine?
I learned that our government must be strong
It's always right and never wrong
Our leaders are the finest men
So we elect them again and again
And that's what I learned in school today
That's what I learned in school
--------------

Visit the Tom Paxton web site
Tom Paxton Website

Almost 40 years has passed, since Tom Recorded
"What did you learn in school today?"
--------------

Ramblin' Boy - Tom Paxton (CD)
Released: 1964 (LP)

This was the first album I recorded for Elektra, in 1964. Paul Rothchild produced and I was joined in the studio by Barry Kornfeld on guitar and banjo and Felix Papparlardi on guitarron.
1 A Job Of Work
2. A Rumblin’ In The Land
3. When Morning Breaks
4. Daily News
5. What Did You Learn In School Today?

some music, played with Hifi or without,
never lose its actuality .....

/halojoy

************************************************************
Click to expand...
 
#2,837
Better warrior with words for Peace, than .....

Better warrior with words for Peace,
than getting human blood on your hands.

Part 2

*****************************************************************

kelticwizard wrote:

I don't think the Laugh Track is necessarily false advertising or deceptive. I think it is there to create some the sense of a live audience and a piece of shared experience. Even the audience knows the show was not filmed in front of a live audience.

Seinfeld is funny with or without the Laugh Track. If the Europeans don't like the Laugh Track, that is certainly their prerogative. But I don't think if falls under the umbrella of deceptive.


__________________
"A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move a body."
-Anonymous

************************************************************

kelticwizard wrote:

quote:
Originally posted by halojoy

Of course any critic of anything from the states
arises "the nationalistic feelings" in every true yankee....


No, it is just that I have read from quite a few posters from outside the US that they think little of American popular culture. Yet the overseas sales figures show that outside the US American popular culture is in demand. I just think it is humorous that so many claim not to watch or listen to it, yet the sales figures belie these protests.


quote:
Of my contacts with americans on the web
and by follwing the political propaganda from governement in charge
I have gotten the impression, that it is a true american's
duty to be patriotic and think that his country is the best
of all places on earth.
We all know that this isn't true.

Too much nationalism isn't good. You got to like your country
but there are others who are glad they were born
in other countries too.



It is a matter of opinion if one country is the best there is, and there is nothing wrong with feeling yours is the best, as long as you recognize others' right to feel the same. You might notice that it was I who started the thread congratulating Norway for being rated best country to live in by the UN. That does not mean that I necessarily think that Norway is a better country to live in than the US. I just thought that congratulations were in order for Norway to get the "prize", (LOL, I wonder if the UN gives a trophy for that?).

As for falling for political propaganda, you might note that in your own Support Peace thread I came out repeatedly against American involvement in Iraq.

What all this has to do with whether or not you like a Laugh Track on your TV shows, I couldn't say.


__________________
"A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move a body."
-Anonymous

************************************************************

purplepeope wrote:

quote:
Originally posted by halojoy


But I still think indoctrination goes on in some parts
of the world, where we do not regard it as indoctrination.


Of course... half the comics in the USA are from Canada. 😉


quote:
Originally posted by kelticwizard


I don't think the Laugh Track is necessarily false advertising or deceptive.


Comedy is always deceptively funny.

Case in point - "A good friend will help you move a body." Indeed!

🙂ensen.

*****************************************************************

kelticwizard wrote:

Re: Drifting topic....sorry Post #9


quote:
Originally posted by dhaen
(My italics...)
This is not a "knock US" post.


I have found that you really do not make anti-US posts. If you take a look at your posts over time, you see that you knock your own country at least as much as you knock the US or anyone else.


__________________
"A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move a body."
-Anonymous

******************************************************************
 
#2,838
Rob M said:


Yeah, actually, that is it. It's a kind of demonization. The European media constantly pounds away on "what's wrong with America", taking real problems (too many African Americans are in prison) and blowing them way out of proportion, and downplaying comparable problems in Europe. It gets to the point where otherwise reasonable people are willing to believe anything, so long as it make the US look bad.
Click to expand...

It really isnt hard to make the US look bad. They're doing all the work for us.
And all the articles I read about the subject were on US websites


I mean, really, think about it. What kind of country would spend more on prisons than education? That would require Ceacescu-level insanity on the part of the leaders, and the people would have to be either brainwashed or brain dead to go along with it. Why, a country like that would be more dangerous than North Korea! But it's just not true.
Click to expand...

it isnt? in my eyes it is. And many agree with me.
N. Korea does not have the power to what it wants it the world. The us does have that power and uses it.



Here's something to keep in mind: American society is more like European society than it is different. That stands to reason, after all, since most Americans are only removed from Europe by a generation or two. So when you hear that something is happening in the US that would be absolutely inconceivable in Europe, you should at least consider the possibility that it isn't conceivable here either.
Click to expand...

that's a naive statement. people can change very quickly. It looks to be similar, and on the surface it is. Also mainly because our culture has been dictated by the US since WWII.

Yet, We don't have that "we are the best" mentality. We are not such patriots.

And ofcourse you will say now, that most americans aren't patriots and that I don't know anything about america and blablablabla.....

The fact is that everyone knows it, you just dont want to admit it.


ANd about the ratio of black people in prison. You say it's not true that majority is black, but it could be close to that. Well, ask yourself the question then what percentage of americans is blank?
 
#2,840
DIY_Peter said:
ANd about the ratio of black people in prison. You say it's not true that majority is black, but it could be close to that. Well, ask yourself the question then what percentage of americans is blank?
Click to expand...

No question about it, blacks make up a disproportionate fraction of the prison population, and that's a problem. But that doesn't mean they are a majority of prisoners. Not all negative statements about the US are equivalent: some are true and some are false. Not everything that "everyone knows" is actually true.

Now, here's a question for you: what percentage of Belgian prisoners are of Turkish or North African origin?

It's hard to tell, since the Belgian government doesn't release these kinds of figures, but according to this:

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/worldbrief/europe_records.php?code=127

more than 40% of the Belgian prison population holds a foreign passport. About 12% of the general population are foreigners, and of those more than half are from other EU countries. I haven't been able to find numbers for the fraction of either the prison population or the general population which is made up of Belgian nationals of foreign ancestry, but from the numbers I could find it seems likely that a majority of Belgian prisoners are members of ethnic minorities. And the numbers for other European countries are similar.
 
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