I remember reading on the web somewhere about some "stuff" available to paint on speaker cones.......like a clear lacquer ???......can someone help me with it's name & where it's available from
(especially in Oz-stralia )
Thanks
Andrew
(especially in Oz-stralia )
Thanks
Andrew
So what are we trying to achieve?
Are we trying to lessen flex on soft paper cones, or are we trying to damp out some ringing on aluminum cones?
What are we trying to do? And exactly what affect will the laquer have?
James
Are we trying to lessen flex on soft paper cones, or are we trying to damp out some ringing on aluminum cones?
What are we trying to do? And exactly what affect will the laquer have?
James
Trying to lessen flex on soft paper cones = YES.
Have some 300mm drivers I want to use in a sub project.
Someone mailed me & said the stuff I'm looking for might be called
"Damar" , but I'm a newbie so I don't know !
Any ideas appreciated.
Andrew
Have some 300mm drivers I want to use in a sub project.
Someone mailed me & said the stuff I'm looking for might be called
"Damar" , but I'm a newbie so I don't know !
Any ideas appreciated.
Andrew
Re: So what are we trying to achieve?
Firstly James, those are very impressive looking line arrays. I would love to listen to them.
There are two issues in your posting.
Firstly, what are we trying to do?
Andrew has to answer this one. He didn't say why he wanted to lacquer his cones.
On the question of C37 ...
C37 is used on all types of cone materials, not just aluminium. I first listened to it applied to a paper-coned speaker, with the other cone of the pair left 'naked' so we could compare the sounds.
Recently, I have been experimenting with it on my aluminium cones with good results. I don't know the exact effect that the lacquer has but I believe that it changes the break-up pattern of the cone that it is used on. All I do is compare the sound of my drivers with and without the lacquer.
For more information, I suggest that you contact Dieter Ennemoser the developer of the stuff. He knows a lot more about what C37 does and will, I'm sure, be helpful in answering any enquiries that you put to him.
Steve
jmiyake said:
Firstly James, those are very impressive looking line arrays. I would love to listen to them.
There are two issues in your posting.
Firstly, what are we trying to do?
Andrew has to answer this one. He didn't say why he wanted to lacquer his cones.
On the question of C37 ...
C37 is used on all types of cone materials, not just aluminium. I first listened to it applied to a paper-coned speaker, with the other cone of the pair left 'naked' so we could compare the sounds.
Recently, I have been experimenting with it on my aluminium cones with good results. I don't know the exact effect that the lacquer has but I believe that it changes the break-up pattern of the cone that it is used on. All I do is compare the sound of my drivers with and without the lacquer.
For more information, I suggest that you contact Dieter Ennemoser the developer of the stuff. He knows a lot more about what C37 does and will, I'm sure, be helpful in answering any enquiries that you put to him.
Steve
andrew01 said:
Andrew, I think the stuff you want is Damar varnish which is available from art supply stores.
There wouldn't be any point in spending the extra money for C37 Lacquer if you're building a subwoofer.
Steve
I would recommend painting a long spiral on the cone fron the inside to the outside. That way when you spin it really fast it looks like a windmill.
C37
With the caveat that I haven't tried this particular elixer, I note the following:
The "technical" stuff on the C37 website is garbage.
The self-promotion is amazing. "The sensational possibilities of my discoveries..."
The price is astonishing. Sensational, even.
The lack of real performance parameters is unconscionable.
If you want to stiffen paper cones and make them moisture impermeable, there are reasonably-priced cone dopes from reputable companies. Or you can make one by dissolving Saran resin in a suitable solvent. One thing is for sure, there ain't no such thing as magic.
One more thing- despite the claim regarding "patented" cone shapes, a search of USPTO issued and pending patents turned up zero.
With the caveat that I haven't tried this particular elixer, I note the following:
The "technical" stuff on the C37 website is garbage.
The self-promotion is amazing. "The sensational possibilities of my discoveries..."
The price is astonishing. Sensational, even.
The lack of real performance parameters is unconscionable.
If you want to stiffen paper cones and make them moisture impermeable, there are reasonably-priced cone dopes from reputable companies. Or you can make one by dissolving Saran resin in a suitable solvent. One thing is for sure, there ain't no such thing as magic.
One more thing- despite the claim regarding "patented" cone shapes, a search of USPTO issued and pending patents turned up zero.
Battlepriest said:C37? I didn't expect to read about it here. I'm really ashamed, that Ennemoser is a german.
Isn't he Austrian?
Just one thing, Battlepriest, I take it that you've listened to a cone treated with C37 but preferred the cone un-treated, yes?
Steve
Re: C37
Steve
PS: I think I agree with you about the "technical" stuff and about the self-promotion, although I don't think that anyone is claiming magic here (except me, see below
)
Really though, isn't it possible that Stradivarius made the same claims about his violin varnish and shouldn't we try this expensive gunk, or at least hear it, before making judgements?
Isn't that rather a large caveat?SY said:
Steve
PS: I think I agree with you about the "technical" stuff and about the self-promotion, although I don't think that anyone is claiming magic here (except me, see below
)Really though, isn't it possible that Stradivarius made the same claims about his violin varnish and shouldn't we try this expensive gunk, or at least hear it, before making judgements?
Wow, earth to V7.
That C37 Theory is the funniest thing I've read in a long long time.
Using that guy's logic, the best speaker cabinets would be
made using ground up violins and bones. Humanity is clearly
indebted to Dieter Ennemoser for "explaining the secrets of
the character of sound". He clearly skipped a few classes during his "technical" training.
I think if it was a good idea to add a coating to the speaker
cone, the engineers at the speaker company that built the
speaker would have done it. If you coat a speaker cone you
can count on the cone mass going up, and the efficiency going
down. So I've seen people do it to lower the free air resonance of a speaker, but I think it's a poor trade for the lower efficiency.
That C37 Theory is the funniest thing I've read in a long long time.
Using that guy's logic, the best speaker cabinets would be
made using ground up violins and bones. Humanity is clearly
indebted to Dieter Ennemoser for "explaining the secrets of
the character of sound". He clearly skipped a few classes during his "technical" training.
I think if it was a good idea to add a coating to the speaker
cone, the engineers at the speaker company that built the
speaker would have done it. If you coat a speaker cone you
can count on the cone mass going up, and the efficiency going
down. So I've seen people do it to lower the free air resonance of a speaker, but I think it's a poor trade for the lower efficiency.
No more so than not having tried the latest perpetual motion machine or healing crystal.
Somewhat true, but not entirely. Cost, consistency, and other production constraints can limit what's done in a manufacturing environment. It's pretty easy to see the fs of an untreated paper cone go up and down as the humidity changes. And only the end user can really know whether or not added mass and lower efficiency are worthwhile trade-offs for lower fs, stiffer cones, and reduced sensitivity to humidity.
But a gallon of cone dope can be made for a couple of dollars; charging thousands of dollars for it is a pretty good indication that we've got a scam here. And I seriously doubt that this guy knows enough about polymers and formulation to have done any real optimization of his magic goop, at least if I'm to judge him by what he writes.
Hi there !
You may want to check this:
http://www10.big.or.jp/~dh/tips/dammar.html
Best Regards,
Guilherme.
You may want to check this:
http://www10.big.or.jp/~dh/tips/dammar.html
Best Regards,
Guilherme.
Hi Andrew,
I have used Aquadhere (pva wood glue) in the past and it worked well for stiffening and quieting a noisey cone.
Thin the glue with water so that it will soak right into the paper cone, allow to mostly dry and apply more coats and allow to dry.
When fully dry you can add more coats in stages.
This will add some weight to the cone, but should not be a big issue for bass drivers.
Eric.
I have used Aquadhere (pva wood glue) in the past and it worked well for stiffening and quieting a noisey cone.
Thin the glue with water so that it will soak right into the paper cone, allow to mostly dry and apply more coats and allow to dry.
When fully dry you can add more coats in stages.
This will add some weight to the cone, but should not be a big issue for bass drivers.
Eric.
I cannot comment on the efficacy of C37, as I have never heard it, but I do have a story to tell...
A long long time ago
In a galaxy far away...
I worked for an AV company that had loads of Bose 802s as their main conference PA speakers. Now, anyone who has ever used 802s will know about the really nasty peak at about 1.2K, that needs to be Eq'ed out. So a new "Marketing" bloke came in, and one weekend decided that all the kit looked tatty, and brought in a mates' spray gun and refinished all the speakers, including the drivers, in matt black cellulose paint.
Well, in the six weeks before the driver surrounds collapsed, those 802s never sounded so good...😉
A long long time ago
In a galaxy far away...
I worked for an AV company that had loads of Bose 802s as their main conference PA speakers. Now, anyone who has ever used 802s will know about the really nasty peak at about 1.2K, that needs to be Eq'ed out. So a new "Marketing" bloke came in, and one weekend decided that all the kit looked tatty, and brought in a mates' spray gun and refinished all the speakers, including the drivers, in matt black cellulose paint.
Well, in the six weeks before the driver surrounds collapsed, those 802s never sounded so good...😉
GUILHERME said:
From your link: "Some Japanese audiophiles paint 'Kakisibu' over the entire cone.
Kakisibu is the fermented juice of persimmon fruit."
Now that's just cool.
full range driver forum
try a search on the full range driver forum,
those guys are keen on painting stuff on their drivers to acheive the impossible dream.........
you should find lots of info on Dammar etc. there:
http://f18.parsimony.net/forum31999/
Pete McK
try a search on the full range driver forum,
those guys are keen on painting stuff on their drivers to acheive the impossible dream.........
you should find lots of info on Dammar etc. there:
http://f18.parsimony.net/forum31999/
Pete McK
Some of the commercial cone treatment liquids contain nothing else than wood glue.
Several times I have treated cones with wood glue and it works indeed fine for stiffen paper cone bass drivers but I would be very careful to apply on higher frequency range drivers.
As any cone treatment it changes dampening properties of diaphragms - while for bass drivers IMO stiffening cones is always a good idea, for higher frequency drivers this might have effects which may not always be desirable (because it actually may happen the opposite of "quieting" due to introducing cone breakup patterns that are worse than the ones You wanted to cure with).
Effects of changing dampening respectively break-up pattern of diaphragms due to cone treatments can be nicely seen on decay waterfall plots (Cumulative Spectral Decay) and this measurements are very helpful to decide (unless hearing of course) how much to apply of which stuff.
Unfortunately when one can get aware that it has been applied to much or the wrong treatment ......it`s too late for that driver - removing often is not possible anymore.
So I`d better be careful how much of which treatment to apply -particular with expensive drivers
Besides this I believe it does not make much sense to treat for instance an expensive 300$ Scan-Speak driver - I trust the engineering guys in this case that they would have done it already if it really were any better.
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