rdf said:At the risk of sounding like a parrot, woo-hoo & thanks! After reading the adjectives used in the complete slagging these resistors took on another board - colourless, lacking life and air (metrics usually associated with added 'spice') - I had to try them and was delighted with the results. Better than Mills to my ear/application.
Keep arguing guys.
I've never tried the Mills. They are quite large (for my applications) and rather expensive. Besides, they are wirewound, and I have an inherent mistrust of such a construction. But most importantly, another designer I trust implicitly told me that they sound "zippy" and "wiry". (I don't have enough time to listen to something that doesn't show at least some promise.)
But what is fascinating is that some people *like* resistors that sound "zippy" and "wiry". Kind of like the Halcro amps....
If you don't mind, please post the link to the discussion you mentioned. I'd be curious to read the thread. Thanks.
Charles Hansen said:
Charles & John,
Okay...buuuut, I've got this little, bitty problem...I've never found a source other than Percy, and I can assure you that he doesn't sell them for .01 ea. At least, not in any quantity that I can justify. Bear in mind that I've got well over a hundred resistance values in stock in RN60 alone, and I buy them in 100 qty boxes. That's a pretty fair hunk 'o pocket change for a little feller in my position. As I've said before, I'm not a business so I can't write this off my taxes. It all comes out of my wallet. But if they're readily available and reasonably priced, I'm all ears (so to speak...).
Grey
Grey,
E-mail me with a list of values and quantities (either for your next project or if you want to build a duplicate of an existing project for comparison) and I'll send you some. We get them from a distributor, but I'm not sure which one. Probably Arrow or Kent. But we usually buy in ammo boxes (I think they are 1000 pieces) or 3000 piece tape and reels). That's only $10 to $30, but if you are buying 100 different values it adds up for the hobbyist...
Thanks,
Charlie
E-mail me with a list of values and quantities (either for your next project or if you want to build a duplicate of an existing project for comparison) and I'll send you some. We get them from a distributor, but I'm not sure which one. Probably Arrow or Kent. But we usually buy in ammo boxes (I think they are 1000 pieces) or 3000 piece tape and reels). That's only $10 to $30, but if you are buying 100 different values it adds up for the hobbyist...
Thanks,
Charlie
The comments were in the AudioAsylum Tube DIY forum. A typical example, a search will bring up others:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/tubediy/messages/11/114947.html
Generally I closely read the recommendations of the PIO/carbon comp contingent and closely consider their pans.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/tubediy/messages/11/114947.html
Generally I closely read the recommendations of the PIO/carbon comp contingent and closely consider their pans.
Wow! What a bunch of whack jobs! The only thing I can say in their defense is that PRP makes several different sizes and several different tempcos in their offerings. Not all of them sound the same, and maybe someone got a particularly bad combination. But they are insane if they think that Roederstein MK-3's "destroy" the PRP's.
One hint of how deluded these guys are was their comments about grid stoppers. They clearly don't understand what their actual function is. And their conclusions regarding their effect on sound quality is so outlandish as to be laughable.
Another telling comment was from the guy who recommended using different brands of resistors in different points in the circuit. Like you are making soup -- just "spice it to taste". I guess there's no point in making it sound like real musical instruments or anything...
One hint of how deluded these guys are was their comments about grid stoppers. They clearly don't understand what their actual function is. And their conclusions regarding their effect on sound quality is so outlandish as to be laughable.
Another telling comment was from the guy who recommended using different brands of resistors in different points in the circuit. Like you are making soup -- just "spice it to taste". I guess there's no point in making it sound like real musical instruments or anything...
Speaking of whackjobs...
"Unlike metal film resistors, this type of resistors incorporates a stable ceramic core coated with metal oxide, such as tin oxide. The metal oxide film does not burn, thus withstanding a few watts. Although metal oxide film resistors do not burn, utmost attention is required when mounting metal oxide film resistors because they radiate heat"
Written in "engrish", but still worth a laugh. You need to avoid these metal oxide units because of the power losses I guess.
😉
"Unlike metal film resistors, this type of resistors incorporates a stable ceramic core coated with metal oxide, such as tin oxide. The metal oxide film does not burn, thus withstanding a few watts. Although metal oxide film resistors do not burn, utmost attention is required when mounting metal oxide film resistors because they radiate heat"
Written in "engrish", but still worth a laugh. You need to avoid these metal oxide units because of the power losses I guess.
😉
Why not try something more likely to reveal a difference, such as comparing metal film to bulk metal foil, instead of metal film to metal film? Sure, the foils are truly expensive, but if it really makesmore of a positive difference than a Shakti stone, wouldn't it be worth it?
What, no teflon caps for you?
Kidding, everyone knows that real men use vacuum capacitors. 😀
I bought a bunch from Percy a few years ago (they were $0.25 a piece) and used them for a balanced stepped attenuator.
Unfortunately, I have tin ears (I think that's what they call people less susceptible to psychological bias in non-blind listening tests), so I couldn't be sure if there was any improvement. Not really a waste, however, for their prettier colors brought me much increased visual enjoyment. 😎
It can actually be an invaluable resource for DIYers at my stage for learning what to avoid. Every now and then an interesting concept does come up but it's normally a truffle hunt.
Hey poobah! Want to team up on developing those zero loss resistors? I read somewhere about a relationship between current and power dissipation. It might be a clue.
Hey poobah! Want to team up on developing those zero loss resistors? I read somewhere about a relationship between current and power dissipation. It might be a clue.
I'm up for it...
I think these guys are onto something big here... I always KNEW there was a reason to stay away from those metal oxide devils. I always avoided them because they're made of "rust".
I am under the gun with an efficiency mandate for a certain product I'm working on... NO metal oxide... and last night I measured conversion efficiencies at about 101%. So there's your proof.
🙂
[yes... my meters are going to cal on Monday]
Anybody know a good source for high power (300 watt) resistors that are super stable? Or is it circulating oil bath time?
I think these guys are onto something big here... I always KNEW there was a reason to stay away from those metal oxide devils. I always avoided them because they're made of "rust".
I am under the gun with an efficiency mandate for a certain product I'm working on... NO metal oxide... and last night I measured conversion efficiencies at about 101%. So there's your proof.
🙂
[yes... my meters are going to cal on Monday]
Anybody know a good source for high power (300 watt) resistors that are super stable? Or is it circulating oil bath time?
poobah said:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Abzug, I find your 'tin ear' explanation to be an insult to those who can hear differences. It is surprising that you can get away with such a statement, here.
FWIW, we have not found the Mills 12W resistors to be wiry or zippy. Crossover uses mostly polyprop/Al Foil, tin foil and polystyrene/tin, silver wiriing, and it is possible there is some compensation going on, but we dont see any indication that it is. It should be noted that the only comparison was with the olde sandcast resistors, a very brief excercise; the Mills sounded so good that we did not look further.
Mid is Skaaning 4" and tweeter is the 2905/9000 Revelator, both very revealing drivers that do not tolerate wirey or zippy components gladly.
Mid is Skaaning 4" and tweeter is the 2905/9000 Revelator, both very revealing drivers that do not tolerate wirey or zippy components gladly.
How can you, in the same post, criticize "rhetorical flourishes",
~~~~~
Take thermal memory distortion for example. In how many cases have audio components with harmonic distortion and noise below perceptible thresholds yet sounding different had something like this measured?
Could this be a type of distortion that would vary significantly between ICs and discrete designs? In a discrete amplifier the thermal effects are limited to directly modulating only an individual part's parameters; in an IC, the package thermally couples all devices.
Could this also be the source of one of the sonic advantages of tubes?
I'm sure other types of distortions have also escaped measurement. On the other hand, there's no magic--if an audible difference exists, it is ultimately measurable.
~~~~~
then immediately pull off one yourself?
And no one seems to have caught it! I'm impressed--it was quite smooth.
~~~~~
Well, it's not just about weighting the measurements, since you first have to measure all terms in your metric to which you will be applying weights to. It is not clear that this far this has been accomplished.
Take thermal memory distortion for example. In how many cases have audio components with harmonic distortion and noise below perceptible thresholds yet sounding different had something like this measured?
Could this be a type of distortion that would vary significantly between ICs and discrete designs? In a discrete amplifier the thermal effects are limited to directly modulating only an individual part's parameters; in an IC, the package thermally couples all devices.
Could this also be the source of one of the sonic advantages of tubes?
I'm sure other types of distortions have also escaped measurement. On the other hand, there's no magic--if an audible difference exists, it is ultimately measurable.
~~~~~
I'm curious as to what his reply was.
We have sometimes used Mills resistors when we need power dissipation in a small space. We usually use Caddock for medium high power, Holco for 2W, and Resista for 1/2 and 1/4 W operation. Holco used to be very good, but they changed their assembly techniques, and it is not so good today. Old Resistas look and sound slightly different from new Resistas. Corning Grey resistors were pretty good, in their time.
abzug,
I have not posted this:
"Originally posted by PMA
Please study, very closely, how the ear actually works. Then weight the measurments the same way, and the results of the measurements will finally correlate exactly to what the ear hears."
that you are putting into my mouth.
I have not posted this:
"Originally posted by PMA
Please study, very closely, how the ear actually works. Then weight the measurments the same way, and the results of the measurements will finally correlate exactly to what the ear hears."
that you are putting into my mouth.
Oops, I don't know how that happened; it was actually KBK that posted that...I certainly don't want to put things into your mouth. Unfortunately, I cannot edit my post this late after posting.
PMA, trust your ears. Don't trust your brain, it's a lying, cheating b******.
It's easy? Who knew?😀
It's easy? Who knew?😀
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