It's usually a good idea to define terms, if the idea is clear communication of course. How were you using the term in the context of your question?
I wont come back with a negative "I never said"...
What I remember saying at various times / places;
1. I attended a get together with other audiophiles from a forum at Digital Equipment. The host made a change, causing everyone to jump out of their seat over it, but I couldnt hear it / didnt have the same response.
2. I can no longer hear some of my favorite aspects of favorite recordings, while my wife - when pointed to what to listen for and where in the soundstage - can. That tinkling bell tree in Dave Grusin's or Steely Dan recordings? Can_no_longer_hear - at all!
3. I can still hear soundstage / instrument placement localization just fine. (That, decent bass and dynamics are all I have left to enhance my enjoyment of reproduced music) It's just that some of them are gone -
4. I can still hear differences between the sound of components like DACs, which surprises me given the above, as I expect them to all sound the same "in our Era". They dont - somehow. I've made a couple of minor "in our Era" hardware investments with disappointing results.
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Joe, thank you. That was helpful.
Sorry for my error 😱
Also sorry to read about your hearing loss.
For good bass and for good imaging, you might like Topping D90 a lot. Maybe something to check out if you know anyone that has one you can listen to.
This pretty much points to there being more than one definition.
Certainly many words acquire new meanings over time. Electrocute is one of favorite examples, it originally only meant execution by electric shock for those convicted of capital punishment, then later (but still before my lifetime) meaning accidental death from electric shock, and in recent memory meaning accidentally injured but NOT killed by electric shock.
I'm reminded of an event circa 1972 when I was about 14 years old, my father (an engineer, had a ham radio license, but not interested in music/hifi) took me to a big event in Atlanta, a stereo/hifi conference. Every booth had manufacturers' products, such as the then-new (and apparently more budget/mainstream oriented rather than "hifi") BIC Venturi speakers. One booth had some huge speakers, wish I could remember the model or brand name, but they played "Lucky Man" at a nice high volume, and the synth lead at the very end goes to some really low note, perhaps under 20Hz, and everyone was suitably impressed. This was around the time of the original opening of HiFi Buys in Atlanta, and I had the impression this conference was related to that, but maybe not.
At SMWTMS we tested the effect of volume differences on listener perceptions, very slight increases in the volume level were interpreted as better, larger ones were interpreted as louder. This is googlable, and is probably partially responsible for the amount of compression in modern pop music.
The largest influencers on bass and imaging are the speakers and room. How do audiophiles (all types) attain and judge imaging?
You want my recommendation for speakers? Its like one cannot mention a dac without mentioning speakers and room? I don't know of any recent breakthroughs in speakers, don't follow it closely enough. For dacs, I do try to keep up as best I can. Just happens to be an area of audio gear that I find interesting. There are no Cordell, Self, or Toole books on dacs like there are on other things to make it easy for people to get up to speed. Besides, there are already plenty of forum members active in other areas like speakers and amplifiers.
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My question was for anyone, how do they get the best imaging out of their speakers regards positioning/room etc. and how do they evaluate/judge it? For me it's one of the most important aspects of an enjoyable, believable musical experience.
I'll venture in here..........
It's all about speaker positioning both in the room and in regards to each other. You want to position the speakers where they are least affected by room boundaries and at the same time trying to not excite the room modes and nulls.
Then you want to equally load the room with each speaker so that the sound is essentially the same in most places in the room.
Once this is accomplished, then everything else pretty much falls into place regarding the stereo image. I don't think there is much to judge/evaluate as it's all pretty much in the recording itself. But you have to get the speakers properly positioned to realize this.
I can get pretty long and detailed with this, though the procedure for doing it is fairly simple.
It's all about speaker positioning both in the room and in regards to each other. You want to position the speakers where they are least affected by room boundaries and at the same time trying to not excite the room modes and nulls.
Then you want to equally load the room with each speaker so that the sound is essentially the same in most places in the room.
Once this is accomplished, then everything else pretty much falls into place regarding the stereo image. I don't think there is much to judge/evaluate as it's all pretty much in the recording itself. But you have to get the speakers properly positioned to realize this.
I can get pretty long and detailed with this, though the procedure for doing it is fairly simple.
That set up suggests to me that level difference takes priority over time difference when it comes to image creation.
Um, perhaps I didn't write clearly enough as you seem to have no understand of what I was getting at.
Equal loading of the room means you hear both speakers equally from most any place in the room. Anything other than equal loading means that you are hearing the speakers unequally at every place in the room with the result that the sound is different at every place in the room, and also the room effects get magnified at the same time.
The only real alternative to positioning the speakers for equal loading is DSP. Properly administered DSP can correct most everything at any particular spot in the room, no matter how poorly positioned the speakers may be.
I'm only familiar with DEQX. It works very well and is expensive. I'm unfamiliar with REW, a free download that has the appeal of free to it.
Nudging the speaker position a few millimeters doesn't cost anything either.
Equal loading of the room means you hear both speakers equally from most any place in the room. Anything other than equal loading means that you are hearing the speakers unequally at every place in the room with the result that the sound is different at every place in the room, and also the room effects get magnified at the same time.
The only real alternative to positioning the speakers for equal loading is DSP. Properly administered DSP can correct most everything at any particular spot in the room, no matter how poorly positioned the speakers may be.
I'm only familiar with DEQX. It works very well and is expensive. I'm unfamiliar with REW, a free download that has the appeal of free to it.
Nudging the speaker position a few millimeters doesn't cost anything either.
"played Lucky man (Emerson Lake & Palmer) at a nice high volume...to some really low note, perhaps under 20 Hz."
I know that particular "note" in that song...while I was in tech school, I took a scope home to "play with"....running the sweep on automatic, this very long waveform appeared briefly, maybe three cycles across the screen, I didn't read the gradiations ..I was too shocked at the height of the cycles.
This ending of the song is beyond virtually all systems considering the signal is there & very strong...the likes of a speakers F3 being in the mid-teens...would mean that particular note would set everything in motion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------Rick.........
I know that particular "note" in that song...while I was in tech school, I took a scope home to "play with"....running the sweep on automatic, this very long waveform appeared briefly, maybe three cycles across the screen, I didn't read the gradiations ..I was too shocked at the height of the cycles.
This ending of the song is beyond virtually all systems considering the signal is there & very strong...the likes of a speakers F3 being in the mid-teens...would mean that particular note would set everything in motion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------Rick.........
Mark, Thanks for the tip! Alas, I'm stuck with needing a single DAC with multichannel output for my current speaker setup. A stereo DAC would require active filters downstream to split out my speaker crossover requirements. If Topping made a "D4-90" I could make use of such a beast, however most people's speakers have passive xovers inside, driven by a stereo amplifier.
Let's say I had the "Stray Cats" playing in my living room - guitar / amp, a standup bass player and a guy playing a snare. Am I going to tell the bass guy "Hey, could you move a little over this way - so you're not so loud when I happen to be standing over here"?
No; they're going to sound like they sound in actually being in the room - room warts and all. Which to me begs the question, is the goal to make our listening spaces disappear and hear how it sounded within the recording venue - or hear how it would sound if "they" were present in our own personal listening space?
An interesting experiment is to take your speakers outside, away from any kind of reflecting structure - and see how a recording sounds then. See if you can then get your room to match what that does...
I'm not sure what you are getting at with your post.
I will only restate my point.........
If the speakers load the room equally, the sound will not move around with you as you laterally move around the room.
If the speakers load the room unequally, the sound will move around with you laterally. You will always hear the dominant speaker, which will be the one on the side of the room you move to.
If you take your speakers outdoors, that is completely different, as in no room effects at all.
That is what I am aiming for with equal loading as mentioned.
I will only restate my point.........
If the speakers load the room equally, the sound will not move around with you as you laterally move around the room.
If the speakers load the room unequally, the sound will move around with you laterally. You will always hear the dominant speaker, which will be the one on the side of the room you move to.
If you take your speakers outdoors, that is completely different, as in no room effects at all.
That is what I am aiming for with equal loading as mentioned.
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