The Bagby design for first order series is from one of the AES papers with Zeta of .5. Also published in Speaker builder 1-82 page 34. Completely different from the approach Fried used. A Gradd had a website that was closer to the Fried design.
The link is very close to Fried designs without Zobel and tweeter R2. The Vifa P17WJ has a voice coil mh almost exactly the same as L1. I have used this driver . This is why it worked in this series crossover design.
Parts Express: Project Showcase
http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/CW2106_Specs.pdf
The link is very close to Fried designs without Zobel and tweeter R2. The Vifa P17WJ has a voice coil mh almost exactly the same as L1. I have used this driver . This is why it worked in this series crossover design.
Parts Express: Project Showcase
http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/CW2106_Specs.pdf
Hi,
Thanks for that information but I suspect its largely practically smoke and
mirrors. I assume in the real world well chosen 1st order x/o functions
work with the driver roll-offs and as such aren't first order filters at all.
The Solen site unbelievably to me lists design tables as old as the ark.
They seem to be quite happy to not inform customers about the
real issues of proper x/o design, commercially I don't blame them.
rgds, sreten.
Absolutely right, but there is hope. The phase difference in theory is still closer to the 90 degree corner so there's maybe three-quarters chance you'll accidentally do better in reality.
To get back to the baffle step on the one model AllenB has the crossover plan of.
The tweeter is 10' above the woofer. The midbass is above the tweeter. The woofers acoustic center is 5" from your ear. This is a triangle with 3 sides 60,10 and 60.8.
Just by increasing the distance to a the listeners ear its the equivalent of moving the tweeter back.
Not as accurate as the sloped front truncated pyramids with rounded corners on top of the 36.5" tall subs.
The tweeter is 10' above the woofer. The midbass is above the tweeter. The woofers acoustic center is 5" from your ear. This is a triangle with 3 sides 60,10 and 60.8.
Just by increasing the distance to a the listeners ear its the equivalent of moving the tweeter back.
Not as accurate as the sloped front truncated pyramids with rounded corners on top of the 36.5" tall subs.
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Hi,
Do you realise that a) basically your posts make no common sense
whatsoever, b) nobody really cares, there is no engagement, and
c) the above is totally incoherent meaningless rambling, its not fun.
rgds, sreten.
Aren't we lucky that drivers don't have any inherent depth or extra phase shift.
David S.
This thread isn't all about you, so don't be speaking for me and others in regard to who does and doesn't care. If you don't like what's being posted in this thread, then show some common sense and don't read or post in it.
P.S. Speakerman has on number of occasions asked you what your personal listening experience has been with series filters, and so far you've ducked the question, so please tell us what your personal listening experience has been with series filters so that the threads' participants will have a reference as to what your expertise is in that area.
Sreten and others have never heard one of these designs or completely understand them. I have many series crossover charts from many publications that many claim are obselete.
.
I have given design parameters I know that are being used in several commercial designs. But very few people can accept this.
One design uses a 6 and 18 db cutoff.
.
I have given design parameters I know that are being used in several commercial designs. But very few people can accept this.
One design uses a 6 and 18 db cutoff.
Hi,
Fair enough point. But this thread (and the one its split off from) isn't
also about what speakerman has done and the speakers he has and
blindingly agreeing they work as described just on someones say so.
Whilst I may have my own personal "listening" preferences, they are
not something up for debate in my book. I'll never write this is "great"
because it sounds good to me, I will write this arrangement does
this and it may or may not be better than that, depending, YMMV.
Not referring to SM, but if your one of those people who like reading
descriptions of how great something is someone has built, that is up
to you, my bugbear is very poor accuracy of technical descriptions
that claim to be be right / informative because they "sound so good".
Returning to SM, if you can work out what he's saying your a better
man than me, your right its not for me to speak for anyone else.
rgds, sreten.
Maybe if many forum users read some old books back isssues of Speaker Builder and purchased the AES papaers in book form they might have a chance of understanding it.
Back in the late 90's the defunct Speakermania message board which was hacked by spammers had some useful observations by trading info between members.
I have found people who took the old Kef drivers used them with a series croosver in a t-line enclosures that abandoned the old enclosures with high order crossovers.
Fried did the same thing having many drivers custom made to his specs. The Fried Dalesford 5' used in his B-2 were far superior to the Kef B110 The same is true with the 6.5' and 10" versions he had produced. He was also the first I know of to use double stacked magnets that are quite common now.
He later used oem versions of the defunct Transparent Sound, Carboneau then Gefco to source his drivers.
Audio asylum members in the early 2000's had many forum users who no longer post as did Audiogon that purchased Fried kits and upgrades and learned the design parameters.
Back in the late 90's the defunct Speakermania message board which was hacked by spammers had some useful observations by trading info between members.
I have found people who took the old Kef drivers used them with a series croosver in a t-line enclosures that abandoned the old enclosures with high order crossovers.
Fried did the same thing having many drivers custom made to his specs. The Fried Dalesford 5' used in his B-2 were far superior to the Kef B110 The same is true with the 6.5' and 10" versions he had produced. He was also the first I know of to use double stacked magnets that are quite common now.
He later used oem versions of the defunct Transparent Sound, Carboneau then Gefco to source his drivers.
Audio asylum members in the early 2000's had many forum users who no longer post as did Audiogon that purchased Fried kits and upgrades and learned the design parameters.
Over the years I have read of many different multipliers for the seriies networks.
What Fried did is different. Below are D. Weems multipiers for series networks.
L and C
1.23 .83
2.00 .5
.71 1.41
.50 2.00
I don't have a scanner and would not want to violate coyright laws by posting charts
In Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook 4th Edition he did not elaborate on the series crossovers. Maybe he did in later editions?
What Fried did is different. Below are D. Weems multipiers for series networks.
L and C
1.23 .83
2.00 .5
.71 1.41
.50 2.00
I don't have a scanner and would not want to violate coyright laws by posting charts
In Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook 4th Edition he did not elaborate on the series crossovers. Maybe he did in later editions?
I am not living in the past Sreten. I have stated companies I know of using series crossovers. Over the years I have contacted some of these companies and found out who they got some of their design ideas from. You should be able to audition a few of them in the U.K. The Magneplain speakers use a 6db series crossover as do the Dahlquist.
People still using parallel crossovesr live in the past. How many watt peaks can your speakers take and spl Sreten ? It does require a large amp to reproduce the deep bass with the anti resonant sound exiting line terminus.
Many people are still taking old drivers and experimenting with improving their sound. More power to them. It's all about enjoying the music. If a forum user is happy with their speakers I am happy for them.
It is very easy to clip a 200 watt per channel amp with these speakers. That is why I am using a 350 watt per channel amp for one pair at a time.
One design chart for 6 and 18 db cutoff use these values for 8ohms.These are approximate values depending on how far you take pie.
L1 = .625 C1= 1.41
fc[Hz] L C
100 19 270
125 15 210
160 12 170
200 9.6 133
250 7.5 105
315 6 84
400 5 67
500 3.8 53
650 3 42
800 2.5 33
1000 2 27
Magnestand - Where Maggies Live And Breathe
Sreten still has not answered most of my questions so I am done answering his
People still using parallel crossovesr live in the past. How many watt peaks can your speakers take and spl Sreten ? It does require a large amp to reproduce the deep bass with the anti resonant sound exiting line terminus.
Many people are still taking old drivers and experimenting with improving their sound. More power to them. It's all about enjoying the music. If a forum user is happy with their speakers I am happy for them.
It is very easy to clip a 200 watt per channel amp with these speakers. That is why I am using a 350 watt per channel amp for one pair at a time.
One design chart for 6 and 18 db cutoff use these values for 8ohms.These are approximate values depending on how far you take pie.
L1 = .625 C1= 1.41
fc[Hz] L C
100 19 270
125 15 210
160 12 170
200 9.6 133
250 7.5 105
315 6 84
400 5 67
500 3.8 53
650 3 42
800 2.5 33
1000 2 27
Magnestand - Where Maggies Live And Breathe
Sreten still has not answered most of my questions so I am done answering his
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I enjoyed reading Speaker Builder.
In those days, DIYers were more isolated from each other. Progress was slow and seemed to go around in circles. People would just build the flavour of the month with no idea of why until they had finished it and could listen to it. At least everyone got a turn on all the rides, got ice cream down their shirt and had a great time of it.
Allen B it's available on disc for much less then I paid for the paper issues.
I have emailed Jerry at Falcon over the years who has put on his site some info about the RAM and Dalesford drivers. The stock units had much higher voice coil inductance the Fried versions.
The custom made Fried versions were only used in the USA. Most U.K. users never heard the only digital ready bextrene cones. They were thinner then the Kef and Audax cones that could not play very loud. I prefer them over the polypropylene Fried later used. I prefer the composite carbon fiber kevlar impregnated doped paper cones over any. I doubt any ever made it to Europe.
Check out this Fried newsletter with his use of his oem bextrene cones. 110+ db peaks. I think they were using one Dynaco St-400 bridged in mono for each speaker.
fried no15 1979-05-15 - Fullscreen
Thiel also uses series crossovers. I don't like the tinty metal cone sound . All metal cones have a tinty sound to my ears.
Thank the Heavens there is chocolate and vanilla.
I have emailed Jerry at Falcon over the years who has put on his site some info about the RAM and Dalesford drivers. The stock units had much higher voice coil inductance the Fried versions.
The custom made Fried versions were only used in the USA. Most U.K. users never heard the only digital ready bextrene cones. They were thinner then the Kef and Audax cones that could not play very loud. I prefer them over the polypropylene Fried later used. I prefer the composite carbon fiber kevlar impregnated doped paper cones over any. I doubt any ever made it to Europe.
Check out this Fried newsletter with his use of his oem bextrene cones. 110+ db peaks. I think they were using one Dynaco St-400 bridged in mono for each speaker.
fried no15 1979-05-15 - Fullscreen
Thiel also uses series crossovers. I don't like the tinty metal cone sound . All metal cones have a tinty sound to my ears.
Thank the Heavens there is chocolate and vanilla.
I think some people found out the hard way about metal cones and I suspect the series crossover may have been found a poor choice with some such drivers.
Maybe at one time, but I can confirm for you their latest CS 3.7 $14K speaker uses parallel xo's. I attended an audio society meeting recently where the 3.7 was the featured speaker. During the meeting we were Skyped with a Thiel design engineer in Kentucky. He was aked the direct question: are your xo's series or parallel? He stated parallel.
I recently found this thread at PE TT which might be of interest. Also check out the link at post #2. It gives details on desigining series xo using PCD. [my apologies if this link has already been posted in this thread or elsewhere].
How did Fried do series crossovers - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
My only reservation here is the author shares some nice looking sims, but NO actual measurements that validate or, refute the model.
How did Fried do series crossovers - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
My only reservation here is the author shares some nice looking sims, but NO actual measurements that validate or, refute the model.
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If a simulator is not created broken, and the data given to it is true then a simulation is not primarily limited by it's accuracy so much as the completeness of it's model. The usefulness of the results is primarily limited by the appropriateness of it's use and the creativity of the user.
So for comparison purposes, or sims without rooms involved, components that work near ideally, distances similar to as the data was taken or whatever the model limitations would be, then sims are accurate enough.
So for comparison purposes, or sims without rooms involved, components that work near ideally, distances similar to as the data was taken or whatever the model limitations would be, then sims are accurate enough.
Oh brother what misleading outright BS. Just because others pointed out the faults of your precious series crossovers you now respond with silly nonsense. You know as well as everyone else( or SHOULD) that parallel crossovers are way easier to design and that changing one component doesn't mess up both the low and high pass response unlike series.Get with the times and use a modern simulator like PCD and find out for yourself.
Taking your ball and going home is childish grow up.
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