Variac said:
you know that's all the fun of this place though
why else do people come here except to better themselves and argue 😀
Audiophilenoob said:
no sir you cannot... any fullrange driver would having amazingly bad off axis response without filtration...
I can guarantee what I'm currently building is one of the finest audio pieces a person can even DIY/purchase... and it happens to be a 3-way...... the 60 degree off axis response is near flat across the entire bandwith... with slight drop off past 15khz... efficency of everything is near 98db and max SPL capabilities around 120 db across all frequencies from 30hz-15khz.... not only that but SQ is above anything I've ever experienced... the tweeter I'm using bests the Seas Millenium in every way to my ears... it even has better dispersion
a full range driver would sound like ****... trust me I've heard plenty of "fantastic" ones without xover
maybe you like that sound... who am I to say otherwise if you do... but it's not SQ by my definition...
simplification can be harmful... actually it can be REALLY harmful...maybe I'm just cynical
I have stayed out of this discussion, but I feel its important to clarify that most contributors to this thread are starting from a different set of goals wrg to audio pleasure and are therefore taking largely logical....very different...paths to audio bliss.
For me i see little reason to want decent 60 degree off axis response....I want to take my room (I have never been able to have a symmetrical one) out of the equation. With beamy fullrange speakers in my room I measure NO reflections that significant wr to the noise floor. In consequence I get phenomenal imaging in my one listening position and a "live" sound. This is the sacrifice I make and within my choices it makse sense. To assume however that my sacrifices are RIGHT or are the correct ones for you are where this thread can get emotional and sometimes vituperative.
The third paragraph from the bottom is this way.
The second where you add the "by my definition" is much more useful.
Sean
(oh and single cap crossovers can work provided the crossover and resonance of the driver are significantly far apart as in a supertweeter....otherwise a notch filter is often needed)
seanzozo said:
Right you are.
The Epos tweeter has a big rear chamber, much bigger than what I see in most tweeters. They should go low without problems.
The ES11 uses on the tweeter a 1.5uf film cap, and 47R to ground after it.
Unfortunately, I don't have any data of these tweeters, but I would like to.
seanzozo said:
I like a wide listening area with a very well thought out room so reflections are limited or not really there... 1st reflections are the most damaging and also easiest to get rid of 🙂 🙂
a sofa as my "sweet spot" is 😎
it's not necessarily what I think SQ is however...
reflections is something that I feel needs to be addressed in a room vs. compromising the speakers ....
it's without contest that having flat 60 degree off-axis is ideal given no increased room reflections... however we live in a world of compromises so many times designing a room for this isn't possible
why do you think everyone loves line sources 😀
re active
It is possible to build a 2nd. order L-R filter by cascading two passive first order filters. Some people do it by the value of the input capacitor on the power amp and a capacitor in series with the speaker, plus a suitable notch filter.
It is possible to build a 2nd. order L-R filter by cascading two passive first order filters. Some people do it by the value of the input capacitor on the power amp and a capacitor in series with the speaker, plus a suitable notch filter.
yeh anytime you get in town let me know, we can drink a few brewskis and defile our ears lolAudiophilenoob said:
yes mostfets... but I dont want be quoted on that since I did not really check it out for sure, it is my assumption...
yes the crown k2 has earned its wings at my house...
well anyu single speaker system I ever heard was typically raspy on the highs and way to thin on th ebass for my taste... maybe I am synical too... but I do not like full range either...Audiophilenoob said:
What other drivers are you using in this system?
tru but unfortunately from what i have seen so far many of the arguements come from people who are dreamers and believe in majik or they feel they have a majik bullet to audio and there are none...Variac said:
Different specs will yield different results and different people will like different things regardless of rhyme or reason... taste has no reason as it is that taste nothing more...
The only time I take issue really is when these guys come out here and indiscrimately throw the proven work of others who have done the extensive labor to quantify and qualify what we hear with some reasonable consistancy and validity, and they just flippantly throw it right out the window and try to convince us that all is meaningless but their ears... Granted there is some truth to that but it is only 1/2 the story as much of the math was developed based on what we hear to begin with... The way I see it if their ears were the holy grail then they would be traveling all over the world setting up sound systems in industry as well as concerts etc... LOL yeh right!!!
I applaud anyone who is willing to go up against the staus quo but then I expect them to show their work just like the people they are going up against have done and so far NONE of the people on here who have made these claims been capable of showing their work... Now am I supposed to feel these guys have valid opinions and are qualified to guide my work? I think not...
The way I see it the really big bands have the best sound management as a whole... Its a world that not to many people out here are all to familiar with... although I have heard someone give it lip service a few pages ago... There is no time in the world of professional music for majik, soothsaying and never never land acoustical analysis when you need to have 50,000 people walking away at the end of a show saying WOW what a concert...
Although I did walk out of a skynard concert because it was so bad once lol... I think the sound man was on something really good....
Yeh it is one of those things that there is no wrong way... and even less right ways, and many your ways...seanzozo said:
Personally I feel the truly important thing is to have a reasonable understanding of what your system will sound like when you are finished....
Same here to a degree... I am for the most part the only person who listens to it albeit I wpould prefer high dipersion I really do not need extremely high dispersion because I always sit in the same place to liten to it anyway... and when people audition it I st them in my spot... I call it my one man speaker LOL For people who have lots of company or friends over they will need either greater dispersion or more horns pointed in different directions to get proper coverage...seanzozo said:
as far as the room goes.. well lets just say it will destroy a perfect speaker...
I woold expect few people who on here have the opportunity to check their system out with a rta... Its not the holy grail but an indespensible tool to really get a system aligned well...
Personally I use the behringer deq 2496 as it has replaced 3 other peices in a nice neet package as well...
seanzozo said:
Another good point for going active
Re: re active
Rc can you tell me more about this?
or give me some references to brush up on?
I would like to know the background and the boundaries for it....
I have become lazy in my middle age and I use the brute force method with equaliaztion and notch filters but I would like to know a littl more background on this....
rcw said:
Rc can you tell me more about this?
or give me some references to brush up on?
I would like to know the background and the boundaries for it....
I have become lazy in my middle age and I use the brute force method with equaliaztion and notch filters but I would like to know a littl more background on this....
Couldn't figure out how a speaker wire thread gets into these discussions, but it seems fun.😀
For those who like to minimze first reflection regardless of what driver dispersion, then you need to face a room corner when listening to them. 😀 naughty. The speakers should be placed so that at the listening position, the first reflection is reflected many times before it reaches the listener.
Got to go now, but I will come back with some more.
For those who like to minimze first reflection regardless of what driver dispersion, then you need to face a room corner when listening to them. 😀 naughty. The speakers should be placed so that at the listening position, the first reflection is reflected many times before it reaches the listener.
Got to go now, but I will come back with some more.
re filter
Its just that a L-R filter is a "Butterworth squared" one rn.
If you take a first order filter that has a fixed Q=.707, and cascade it with another one, with a suitable buffer, such as an amplifier in between, you get a .707*.707=.5, Q second order filter this is a second order L-R type of filter.
The simplest bi-amped system I have seen uses the natural 3kHz. region 2nd. order roll off of a Vifa P17WJ driven by one amp, in conjunction with a Vifa double chamber d25 tweeter, with the filter arrangement I mentioned driven by a second amp.
In addition the input capacitor to the bass driver amp. has a value suitable for a B5 reflex alignment , and this gives a very usefull increase in excursion limited power handling.
Its just that a L-R filter is a "Butterworth squared" one rn.
If you take a first order filter that has a fixed Q=.707, and cascade it with another one, with a suitable buffer, such as an amplifier in between, you get a .707*.707=.5, Q second order filter this is a second order L-R type of filter.
The simplest bi-amped system I have seen uses the natural 3kHz. region 2nd. order roll off of a Vifa P17WJ driven by one amp, in conjunction with a Vifa double chamber d25 tweeter, with the filter arrangement I mentioned driven by a second amp.
In addition the input capacitor to the bass driver amp. has a value suitable for a B5 reflex alignment , and this gives a very usefull increase in excursion limited power handling.
rnrss said:
I was more or less waiting for it to be fairly close to completion in the next couple days before I let DIYaudio in on it lol 😛
but if you must know... 😀
Active crossovers via DBX driverack
per side I'm using a 4.3 micron ribbon tweeter that I DIY'd... size of the ribbon is identical to an LCY ribbon with several things improved upon (fully dampening the back wave via open back circuit and 12" of thin to heavy dampening behind the backwave) also the flux is very high in the gap
2 PHL 1120's sealed to .707 specs... probably high passed at 300 hz or so and LP at 2khz or so (this is of course changable)
for lows... 2 Lambda TD15x's... ported with dual 6" flared ports to 35hz in 10 cubes total...
I'll go into details about my construction of the enclosures when I post pics in a week... but just for your interest just the 2 15's enclosure (the top end is seperated from this) comes in a little under 300 lbs without speakers
and it's roughly 40" talloh and to throw a personal note on the RTA thing.... I have a RTA 🙂 🙂 invaluable in placing speakers optimally in a room... even if you can't dampen walls
Re: re filter
ah ok thanks gotcha... I had a totally wrong impression of what you were doing there lol
rcw said:
ah ok thanks gotcha... I had a totally wrong impression of what you were doing there lol
Audiophilenoob said:
I was more or less waiting for it to be fairly close to completion in the next couple days before I let DIYaudio in on it lol 😛
but if you must know... 😀
Active crossovers via DBX driverack
per side I'm using a 4.3 micron ribbon tweeter that I DIY'd... size of the ribbon is identical to an LCY ribbon with several things improved upon (fully dampening the back wave via open back circuit and 12" of thin to heavy dampening behind the backwave) also the flux is very high in the gap
2 PHL 1120's sealed to .707 specs... probably high passed at 300 hz or so and LP at 2khz or so (this is of course changable)
for lows... 2 Lambda TD15x's... ported with dual 6" flared ports to 35hz in 10 cubes total...
I'll go into details about my construction of the enclosures when I post pics in a week... but just for your interest just the 2 15's enclosure (the top end is seperated from this) comes in a little under 300 lbs without speakers
oh and to throw a personal note on the RTA thing.... I have a RTA 🙂 🙂 invaluable in placing speakers optimally in a room... even if you can't dampen walls
Now that sounds like a system I can appreciate! I will be very interested in seeing those details and pics, and hearing your analysis on it...
As you already can tell I am sure that I am a fan of pro and semi pro audio and especially personal mods and good sound design principles...
Yes an rta in my opinion is essential to maintain a reasonable sanity level while setting up and testing etc... Not the holy grail but an extremely useful to help us to hit design goals and do a proper system alignment...
So how you taper your curve? Do you use the standard -1db/octave or do you have your own curve?
rnrss said:
thanks for the compliments...
the DIY ribbon's final sensitivity is right around 95-96 db/w 🙂
I really haven't messed with my RTA too much... it is on my computer though...
when you speak of tapering the curve do you mean smoothing?
As far as active crossover goes.
If you have a two way speakers, if you do a low pass for the woofer, then al you need for the tweeter will be a subtractor. This will put the least componenets in the high frequency band, and also be assured that regardless what you do with the low end, the sum of the high and low pass section will be the original signal. All you have to figure out then would be the characteristics of the drivers to make the time alignment and any other phase adjustments.
If you are doing a 3-way system, then to the high and low filtering and use a subtractor to subtract the high and lows to get your band pass. This uses less components and preserves signal integrity regardless what you do with the high and low filtering.
If you have a two way speakers, if you do a low pass for the woofer, then al you need for the tweeter will be a subtractor. This will put the least componenets in the high frequency band, and also be assured that regardless what you do with the low end, the sum of the high and low pass section will be the original signal. All you have to figure out then would be the characteristics of the drivers to make the time alignment and any other phase adjustments.
If you are doing a 3-way system, then to the high and low filtering and use a subtractor to subtract the high and lows to get your band pass. This uses less components and preserves signal integrity regardless what you do with the high and low filtering.
Audiophilenoob said:
Thats awesome sensitivity for a ribbon...
Well speakers and rooms have hot spots and drop out spots and it really takes the work out of finding them.. that and you can make a change on one end and it changes the phase just abit and results in a pek or dip on the oether end lol Its a real science of trial and error... Then the trick is to learn its limitations... If i have radical peaks I often back it up a bit as going strictly by the rta will tend to over compensate from my experience with them... The nice thing is you can leave them run while playing music and see why the wierd thing you heard or did not hear hapened they it did and make tweeks accordinly...
ya I always taper to make up for room rise... rougly 1db/octave... what works best for really cranking it I have found is to drop it maybe 1/2 to 3/4 db/octave up to roughly 630 to 1000 area then I drop it like 3 per up to 4000ish and then i raise it like 3 per to 12k...
Since I listen so loud I probly do a 15db drop by the time I hit 3k and then back up a bit to a 10db drop by the time I hit 12k... If you listen very quietly then you may only want 1/2 that or even less depending on your ears...
Yeh when I build a system for someone I give them a lame sort of hearing test... then when I set it up I set it up to my ears and tweek it to match theirs...
you can look up the fletcher munsen or white curves for human hearing... it is similar to that...
In the end compensating for room rise and the human ear... My ear does not follow that curve exactly but resaonably close
rnrss said:
Nope! 🙂
For example, if you have XO points at 3K and 300Hz, then do a 3K high pass, a 300Hz low pass, use the full pass to subtract the high pass and low pass outputs to get your band pass.
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