Re: The deam damping factor
I think B&W speakers sound amazingly dull and boring
unless you get to the 800 series... I wanna yawn myself to sleep cause of their monotonal nature
though the 800 sounds better, I like many many many speakers better
it sort of makes sense now... not to be rude...
but seems to me that you probably own B&W speakers... and therefore much of what you're talking about makes sense... simply because you spent $11,000-20000 on speakers... of course you will fret over every detial to get the most out of them...
also probably you feel that you own the best speakers right? 😀
simply put... you can not comprehend all the things inherently WRONG in a B&W speaker that need to be fixed... before I WOULD EVEN think of speaker wires/op-amps making drastic SQ differences
carlosfm said:
One of the very few amps that can REALLY drive a pair of B&W Nautilus 801D or 802D. Yes, they are THAT tough.
For some very hard to drive speakers you don't need just power, you need power and current with quality, which is not easy to achieve.
Of course, you don't need all this artillery to enjoy music with quality.
And you don't need B&W speakers.
The end.
I think B&W speakers sound amazingly dull and boring
unless you get to the 800 series... I wanna yawn myself to sleep cause of their monotonal nature
though the 800 sounds better, I like many many many speakers better
it sort of makes sense now... not to be rude...
but seems to me that you probably own B&W speakers... and therefore much of what you're talking about makes sense... simply because you spent $11,000-20000 on speakers... of course you will fret over every detial to get the most out of them...
also probably you feel that you own the best speakers right? 😀
simply put... you can not comprehend all the things inherently WRONG in a B&W speaker that need to be fixed... before I WOULD EVEN think of speaker wires/op-amps making drastic SQ differences
Audiophilenoob said:
I must be talking chinese.
Who cares...
Audiophilenoob said:
Deam, LISTEN (again!!!):
If you have a very linear woofer that doesn't need a crossover you have just a cap on the tweeter, why do you need active crossovers for????!!!!!
Audiophilenoob said:
Again?!
Omigod, I quit.
I have Epos ES11 speakers, if you use active crossovers here I'll smackah u face.😀
Read this ALL, if you dare.
http://www.stereophile.com//interviews/567/
re crossovers
Mass market speaker designers build "showroom bumps" into their designs, you sell more that way. The oldest trick in two way systems to get a "presence" peak is to put a capacitor in series with a tweeter forming a resonant circuit and giving an upper midrange peak.
In three way systems you can do the same thing with the upper roll off of the midrange driver. A case in point is the jbl century, this was the largest selling speaker in the USA in the 70's. It started off as the perfectly respectable 4130 studio monitor, and with an upper midrange resonance and a higher tuning of the port it aquired the nessesary showroom bumps, i.e. punch and presence peaks.
A system with only a single capacitor in series with the tweeter is guaranteed to have such a peak, it is incidentally called a presence peak because voices and instruments with a lot of output in this region are projected forward and seem to be more "present" in the room, sounding to some more "real".
The resemblance to the obseravations of the single capacitor advocates and this are uncanny, or perhaps I am just being cynical.
Mass market speaker designers build "showroom bumps" into their designs, you sell more that way. The oldest trick in two way systems to get a "presence" peak is to put a capacitor in series with a tweeter forming a resonant circuit and giving an upper midrange peak.
In three way systems you can do the same thing with the upper roll off of the midrange driver. A case in point is the jbl century, this was the largest selling speaker in the USA in the 70's. It started off as the perfectly respectable 4130 studio monitor, and with an upper midrange resonance and a higher tuning of the port it aquired the nessesary showroom bumps, i.e. punch and presence peaks.
A system with only a single capacitor in series with the tweeter is guaranteed to have such a peak, it is incidentally called a presence peak because voices and instruments with a lot of output in this region are projected forward and seem to be more "present" in the room, sounding to some more "real".
The resemblance to the obseravations of the single capacitor advocates and this are uncanny, or perhaps I am just being cynical.
carlosfm said:
I must be talking chinese.
Who cares...
Deam, LISTEN (again!!!):
If you have a very linear woofer that doesn't need a crossover you have just a cap on the tweeter, why do you need active crossovers for????!!!!!
Again?!
Omigod, I quit.
I have Epos ES11 speakers, if you use active crossovers here I'll smackah u face.😀
Read this ALL, if you dare.
http://www.stereophile.com//interviews/567/
I'm sry for my lack of catchup...
this thread is too massive to read all the way through
I had a few other questions though for you .... especially concerning vinyl and digital media.... I hope you respond to those while I read the review on those speakers
Re: Re: The deam damping factor
In 90% of the cases there is no amp to show their potential, so you may have heard them, but you din't hear them sing.
The Nautilus range are good speakers, but not a speaker I would like to have.
You must have some problem...
No, I just listen to many things and I like to know what's good and what's junk.
Magazines are bathroom reading, I LISTEN to almost everything I want.
This saturday, with my friend, it was a Linn CD12, Halcro Pre + Power amp and B&W 802D.
Just figure out, the top of the range (huge) Classé monoblocks can't drive these speakers, it sounds plain horrible.
And it's recommended by B&W. You take your own conclusions. Lots of insensitive ears out there.
Audiophilenoob said:
In 90% of the cases there is no amp to show their potential, so you may have heard them, but you din't hear them sing.
The Nautilus range are good speakers, but not a speaker I would like to have.
Audiophilenoob said:
You must have some problem...
No, I just listen to many things and I like to know what's good and what's junk.
Magazines are bathroom reading, I LISTEN to almost everything I want.
This saturday, with my friend, it was a Linn CD12, Halcro Pre + Power amp and B&W 802D.
Just figure out, the top of the range (huge) Classé monoblocks can't drive these speakers, it sounds plain horrible.
And it's recommended by B&W. You take your own conclusions. Lots of insensitive ears out there.
Audiophilenoob said:
😕
It's not a review, it's an enterview with a genious: Robin Marshall, Epos creator.
Read that.
PS: Yes, that woofer is special. 😀
The tweeter too.
And the enclosure. And.. and...
Whats the difference? Whats the difference between a pa amp and home amp? NOTHING, DUH... The freaking name...carlosfm said:
I told you that I have several amps and my favorite is a crown K2 look it up if you want to know what it is...
I insist on what counts... I did the homework, I did the math, and I have done the tests with both my ears and test equipment.... so far you have shown us nothing but ghosts and goblins and as far as I am concerned you are not interested in getting to the bottom of things and gaining a better understanding of this stuff you just want to hear yourself talk out here... so by all means buy 50,000 dollar razmataz wire and gold plate your whole freaking house ok... whatever turns your crank!!!carlosfm said:
This is getting very tiresome must be some young kid...
Re: re crossovers
NO, it isn't.
That's curiously how most commercial speakers sound to me.
You go and listen to an Epos, from the (old) ES range, or the new (unfortunately not quite the same thing) M range.
And before anything, go and investigate how the Epos woofer is done.
Yes, it works.
Beautifully.
A very neutral sounding speaker, but at the same time very musical, detailed, dynamic.
It's very rare to listen to such a neutral midband.
It's to for.
Hey, I don't sell Epos.😀
rcw said:
NO, it isn't.
That's curiously how most commercial speakers sound to me.
You go and listen to an Epos, from the (old) ES range, or the new (unfortunately not quite the same thing) M range.
And before anything, go and investigate how the Epos woofer is done.
Yes, it works.
Beautifully.
A very neutral sounding speaker, but at the same time very musical, detailed, dynamic.
It's very rare to listen to such a neutral midband.
It's to
for.Hey, I don't sell Epos.😀
It is very interesting to see lots of people argue about crossovers in a speaker wire thread. Maybe somebody should organize an annual competition. Select a common speaker driver set and encolsure, each side of the argument come up with designs that they think would be best, select a jury, and vote.🙂
Re: Re: Re: The deam damping factor
I should have known.... Just some dreamer going from store to store listening to different pieces with no experience, thinking those speakers will sound the same when he puts them in his house and bragging about amps that do not even give a full documentation and specs... yeh yer right man!!! You got it happening!!!! what a winner...
Yeh right, spare me... Now its the amps fault if they sound bad, and all this while I thought they sounded bad because it was raining peru... How about the speaker s**ks 90% of the time and the 10% of the time they sound good when you are drunk?carlosfm said:
I know that was not meant for me but it is clear who has the problem...carlosfm said:
carlosfm said:
I should have known.... Just some dreamer going from store to store listening to different pieces with no experience, thinking those speakers will sound the same when he puts them in his house and bragging about amps that do not even give a full documentation and specs... yeh yer right man!!! You got it happening!!!! what a winner...
rnrss said:
No, it's your father, full of white hair.
The first part of your post shows ignorance, but who cares?
I guess you listen with the maths, not with your ears.
You go and put ten 741 op-amps on the signal path and go active, if that makes you happy. After all, it's what they 'use' in the studios...
This last part of your post is childish, and we're not in kindergarden.
I haven't seen any proofs that what you say it the recipe for good sound, and you can throw me with 1000 formulas.
This is neverending story, but I'm not interested, thanks.
See ya.
carlosfm said:
you do not recognize proof when you see it...
you have fixation issues you should get help...
I am no longer going to respond to any of your posts, I have more interesting conversations with a stuck record...
Re: Re: Re: Re: The deam damping factor
What if they sound very good with one amp?
Are they bad speakers?
Well, they are, because they are very hard to drive, just that.
Look how childish you are.
I'm a very close friend (since almost 20 years) to a guy that sells hi-fi, but our old relation didn't (and doesn't) have anything to do hi-fi, we are just very good friends.
I just went to visit him AT HIS WORK, and we ended up listening to good music.
Jeff Buckley, if you wanna know.
That system was on the main room.
This sunday we'll go drink some beers.
I'm out.
rnrss said:
What if they sound very good with one amp?
Are they bad speakers?
Well, they are, because they are very hard to drive, just that.
rnrss said:
Look how childish you are.
I'm a very close friend (since almost 20 years) to a guy that sells hi-fi, but our old relation didn't (and doesn't) have anything to do hi-fi, we are just very good friends.
I just went to visit him AT HIS WORK, and we ended up listening to good music.
Jeff Buckley, if you wanna know.
That system was on the main room.
This sunday we'll go drink some beers.
I'm out.
Re: re crossovers
Well many commercial speakers I have found to be nasty in the 2k through 8kish area and that is what prompted me to build my own and of course my own designs we tamed down in that area...
rcw said:
Well many commercial speakers I have found to be nasty in the 2k through 8kish area and that is what prompted me to build my own and of course my own designs we tamed down in that area...
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THis fight is over who has the best speakers and its become one sided. I have the best speakers. Better then EPOS and certainly better then B&W. Want to know why ??
Madmike2 said:THis fight is over who has the best speakers and its become one sided. I have the best speakers. Better then EPOS and certainly better then B&W. Want to know why ??
It's either we get drunk at your place, or you're the speaker, a hi fi one too, no wires or interconnects.😀 That really your picture!.😱
You caught me 😱 I was going to get you all virtually hammered and sing danny boy. You would all swear it was my speakers and not my wires that made you beleive it was a faithful funeral rendition.😀
re bumps
A bald no it isn,t is insuficient Carlos, Beson, (he of the Benson, Thiele, Small parameters), in work that goes back to the 60's shows that this is an inevitable result, and it 's presence is usually masked by the fact that the actual peak occurs below the crossover frequency in "serious" speakers but it has sufficient level to be audible.
The way to fix it is to cancel the complex part of the drivers impedance by means of a notch filter. It should also be noted that a tweeter is acoustically a 2nd. order high pass filter and most so called first order crossovers are in fact psudo third order ones with rather dubious phase and amplitude characteristics, this is especially so if only a capacitor and no conjugate matching is used.
If you don't believe it I can quote all of the relavent AES papers, that demonstrate that these theoretical results are born out in measurement, and also the double blind testing of the subjective reaction of people to these effects.
A bald no it isn,t is insuficient Carlos, Beson, (he of the Benson, Thiele, Small parameters), in work that goes back to the 60's shows that this is an inevitable result, and it 's presence is usually masked by the fact that the actual peak occurs below the crossover frequency in "serious" speakers but it has sufficient level to be audible.
The way to fix it is to cancel the complex part of the drivers impedance by means of a notch filter. It should also be noted that a tweeter is acoustically a 2nd. order high pass filter and most so called first order crossovers are in fact psudo third order ones with rather dubious phase and amplitude characteristics, this is especially so if only a capacitor and no conjugate matching is used.
If you don't believe it I can quote all of the relavent AES papers, that demonstrate that these theoretical results are born out in measurement, and also the double blind testing of the subjective reaction of people to these effects.
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