Hello, and thanks for stopping by.
Although I have built my own guitars, tube amps, FX pedals, and work as an Engineering R & D tech at Zoll Medical, this particular facet of things is unchartered territory for me. I'll just try to dive in and see where this goes.
Having been a professional guitarist that dreamed about having Cello/violin like melody expression I build a guitar with no frets and it is to be played with only an Ebow.(electronic bow) So, for frequency range, that means my lowest note is around 80 Hz and the Ebow with the pickup I use will generate up to 10-12Khz, which, is unusual for a normal guitar which usually uses speakers that roll off around 5-6K at the most.
Considering this expected range, I thought it would be a reasonable idea to use a high power full range speaker, could be 8", 10" or 12". I don't think I need to go 12", for this application an 8" full range speaker may be fine. I'd like this system to be loud enough to work in small to medium rooms, and I'd like to get "the sound" on stage so, a sort of fully produced sound on stage to be stereo mic'd and act as the stage monitor as well. This rig will be in stereo with stereo effects so, I'm looking at 2 cabinets powered with a 2 channel Crown or QSC power amp, probably 300 watts would do.
Just to clarify, the Ebow/fretless "guitar" goes into a DI/Neve mic pre/Kurzweil Rumour 2 channel reverb-ambience processor then finally out to a 2 channel power amp and into the 2 cabinets, each with a full range speaker.
This is what I picture as far as what I know in life about sound so far plus, I can look to keep it fairly compact and maybe affordable (maybe).
So all of this seems to live somewhere in the middle of "Hi-Fi, live sound and guitar amp". Least of all, guitar amp - I have my Fenders and Marshall for that. I will also be using IR pedals to emulate different wooden violin/cello body resonances and such so, my choices in speakers/cabs may want to lean toward at least a little "flatter responce". It certainly doesn't need to be super accurate or flat, just not super colored or have high distortion like a guitar amp. Like a little good sounding stereo PA system for the stage. If I ever need huge volume, I'll mic up the two cabs.
So I've been looking at various full range speakers by Eminence, Celestion and a few others that I cant even remember, and wondering if I choose a speaker then match a fitting cabinet, or the other way around. I probably can't afford to custom build speaker cabs based on the speakers electrical/mechanical characteristics so, I'll be trying to find a decent match of speaker and cabinet that is reasonably affordable, just for starters.
So, in your opinion, considering my particular application, how would you recommend I look at putting this together? I'd surely be interested in your ideas. It doesn't have to be perfect to start, I just need a reasonable start and take it from there as I learn the elements, and experience the issues.
Thanks so much for reading through this, I know it was a bit loaded post
Best,
Phil Donovan
Although I have built my own guitars, tube amps, FX pedals, and work as an Engineering R & D tech at Zoll Medical, this particular facet of things is unchartered territory for me. I'll just try to dive in and see where this goes.
Having been a professional guitarist that dreamed about having Cello/violin like melody expression I build a guitar with no frets and it is to be played with only an Ebow.(electronic bow) So, for frequency range, that means my lowest note is around 80 Hz and the Ebow with the pickup I use will generate up to 10-12Khz, which, is unusual for a normal guitar which usually uses speakers that roll off around 5-6K at the most.
Considering this expected range, I thought it would be a reasonable idea to use a high power full range speaker, could be 8", 10" or 12". I don't think I need to go 12", for this application an 8" full range speaker may be fine. I'd like this system to be loud enough to work in small to medium rooms, and I'd like to get "the sound" on stage so, a sort of fully produced sound on stage to be stereo mic'd and act as the stage monitor as well. This rig will be in stereo with stereo effects so, I'm looking at 2 cabinets powered with a 2 channel Crown or QSC power amp, probably 300 watts would do.
Just to clarify, the Ebow/fretless "guitar" goes into a DI/Neve mic pre/Kurzweil Rumour 2 channel reverb-ambience processor then finally out to a 2 channel power amp and into the 2 cabinets, each with a full range speaker.
This is what I picture as far as what I know in life about sound so far plus, I can look to keep it fairly compact and maybe affordable (maybe).
So all of this seems to live somewhere in the middle of "Hi-Fi, live sound and guitar amp". Least of all, guitar amp - I have my Fenders and Marshall for that. I will also be using IR pedals to emulate different wooden violin/cello body resonances and such so, my choices in speakers/cabs may want to lean toward at least a little "flatter responce". It certainly doesn't need to be super accurate or flat, just not super colored or have high distortion like a guitar amp. Like a little good sounding stereo PA system for the stage. If I ever need huge volume, I'll mic up the two cabs.
So I've been looking at various full range speakers by Eminence, Celestion and a few others that I cant even remember, and wondering if I choose a speaker then match a fitting cabinet, or the other way around. I probably can't afford to custom build speaker cabs based on the speakers electrical/mechanical characteristics so, I'll be trying to find a decent match of speaker and cabinet that is reasonably affordable, just for starters.
So, in your opinion, considering my particular application, how would you recommend I look at putting this together? I'd surely be interested in your ideas. It doesn't have to be perfect to start, I just need a reasonable start and take it from there as I learn the elements, and experience the issues.
Thanks so much for reading through this, I know it was a bit loaded post
Best,
Phil Donovan
I would use a decent livesound fullrange driver that is high efficient, reasonable flat and not to expensive. That could be something like a Beyma 12GA50, Monacor SP-30PATC or a Fane 12-250TC in a basic ported or sealed cabinet that fits the driver. Those cabinets will be custom, but easy to make if you can do basic woodworking. Both drivers are relative cheap. And every hobby woodworker should be able to do this, even with little skills. I'm not trained as woodworker nor have a big workshop, but i did build cabinets like that for my own and others with basic tools. You could use a CNC shop to do the big cutting altough (i do that)
The easiest and probally the cheapest will be the Fane (the driver costs 80€ down here) in a 80L sealed cabinet, but this only works with a low power amplifier. 30W gives you already +/- 108dB at one meter (should be enough) and an flat response (F3) to 63Hz. Higher power will cut of the bass, advertised power of this driver does cut the bass to 200Hz. The driver has a slight rising response, but that is not that bad off axis, and with a typical amp speaker cloth it's already enough filtered for hifi (so also for your needs i think).
An 80L box in 18mm (birch or similar) plywood (don't use mdf for this, it won't last) is something like 45cm x 45cm x 50cm on outside size, but that size is not that important (can vary a bit if it fit you better). Fill the box with rockwool (Sono it's called here) of about 40 to 50kg/m³ or similar fiberglass (OC703) for 3/4th to dampen and you're done...
Fitting this driver to an existing open back cab won't work as the bass will roll of to soon, if you can find an existing sealed box of 75 to 150L it can work, as size is not that important for sealed in this kind of application, but make sure it's air-sealed and filled with damping like i described.
That's how i would do it at least...
The easiest and probally the cheapest will be the Fane (the driver costs 80€ down here) in a 80L sealed cabinet, but this only works with a low power amplifier. 30W gives you already +/- 108dB at one meter (should be enough) and an flat response (F3) to 63Hz. Higher power will cut of the bass, advertised power of this driver does cut the bass to 200Hz. The driver has a slight rising response, but that is not that bad off axis, and with a typical amp speaker cloth it's already enough filtered for hifi (so also for your needs i think).
An 80L box in 18mm (birch or similar) plywood (don't use mdf for this, it won't last) is something like 45cm x 45cm x 50cm on outside size, but that size is not that important (can vary a bit if it fit you better). Fill the box with rockwool (Sono it's called here) of about 40 to 50kg/m³ or similar fiberglass (OC703) for 3/4th to dampen and you're done...
Fitting this driver to an existing open back cab won't work as the bass will roll of to soon, if you can find an existing sealed box of 75 to 150L it can work, as size is not that important for sealed in this kind of application, but make sure it's air-sealed and filled with damping like i described.
That's how i would do it at least...
I would approach it as, find the smallest driver for a sealed cabinet that will get the 80hz at the spl needed given the power handling of the driver, so that beaming will be minimized (with the smaller driver). I think that will work. The loudspeakerdatabase site has spl simulations that are helpful imo. I think they're using driver xmax rather than power handling as the cut off for spl though.
Last edited:
Hi Phil,
I think there´s no such thing as a high-power fullrange driver... you want to reach 80Hz, fine, and decent volume levels in a smallish room, but not PA levels, did I get this right? You will need only a few watts to do this, and, let´s stay with an 8" for a while, if you throw a few more your drivers will start to sound aggressive and congested.
You don´t need 300 watts. Quality is your friend, and a nice 10-watter may be a better choice than brute force PA amps.
Just a few thoughts about your project: a decent 8" will meat your response requirements, and will need a box of a few dozen litres, depending on driver, alignment and so on. With a correction filter, taking care of baffle step (an irregularity caused by the box´ baffle) and driver issues (nearly every FR driver produces a rising response and breakups in upper mid and treble region. Some ignore them, I prefer to have a sensible correction of these issues) a decent linearity in the given bandwith can be achieved.
This will not play very loud. You´ll need to build an enclosure.
Any more specific suggestions will depend on a lot of variables, like your budget, volume requirements, quality level wanted and so on.
All the best
Mattes
I think there´s no such thing as a high-power fullrange driver... you want to reach 80Hz, fine, and decent volume levels in a smallish room, but not PA levels, did I get this right? You will need only a few watts to do this, and, let´s stay with an 8" for a while, if you throw a few more your drivers will start to sound aggressive and congested.
You don´t need 300 watts. Quality is your friend, and a nice 10-watter may be a better choice than brute force PA amps.
Just a few thoughts about your project: a decent 8" will meat your response requirements, and will need a box of a few dozen litres, depending on driver, alignment and so on. With a correction filter, taking care of baffle step (an irregularity caused by the box´ baffle) and driver issues (nearly every FR driver produces a rising response and breakups in upper mid and treble region. Some ignore them, I prefer to have a sensible correction of these issues) a decent linearity in the given bandwith can be achieved.
This will not play very loud. You´ll need to build an enclosure.
Any more specific suggestions will depend on a lot of variables, like your budget, volume requirements, quality level wanted and so on.
All the best
Mattes
I agree with Mattes, 300W is way to much power for full range drivers. Maybe you should consider PA coaxial speakers like Eminence for eg.
One of the comments here what that without frets you get higher frequencies attenuated. And that would be entirely true if it wasn't for the inclusion of the Ebow - makes for a whole new set of circumstance. I was shocked to find that with tone control full open that there was an "angry beehive" of hornets right around 8.5Khz. I needed about an 8dB cut with a moderate to narrow Q in order to calm that down. The only other time I had seen someone use a fretless guitar with Ebow was over in the Mideast. Although, it was played very good by a couple of gentlemen, there was a huge roll off of high frequencies causing me to think that the coupling of wood and skin created an enourmous low pass filtering. Now, I believe that they has their tone control on fully to roll off as much highs as possible. I almost didn't do the project due to the huge lack of highs that weren't present. So, I asked the Seymour Duncan forum about a pickup that is full but has the most extended highs of all pickups. Strangely, I was recommended the Dimebucker, a pickup that was designed for one of the hardest heavy metal guitar slayers in the business. Somehow, Duncan was able to produce a pickup with a series DCR of 16k ohms but still have a resonant frequency around 5.3Khz. That was all a huge surprise to me to find such a high level of high frequencies when the Ebow was fully in the proximity of the pickup magnets (which does have a large effect on how much high freq energy will be present).
In regards to another comment here, I got into email exchange with one of Eminence's audio techs, and he informed me of a speaker they produced specifically designed for fiddle and violin players. They named it the, "Guit-Fiddle". It was a usable range of 80-4.5Khz and is 100 watts. He also recommended a particular super tweeter that he felt would make a good partner with the speaker to give me the rest of the frequencies that my guitar is happy to produce in spades. Its a 35 watt super tweeter with a range from 3.5Khz to 20Khz. I would be happy to design a crossover and build it for the project. There seems to be very good free apps available for this (XSim I believe is one of them)?
So this sounds like a good way to go for what I'm doing - afterall, I'm not trying to "reproduce" audio, I am trying to "produce" a sound for an instrument. I may have been trying too hard in the wrong direction for starters. Well certainly the only way to really find out is to start somewhere and see where I land. This is a fairly unique situation so, I really don't have a reason to think I know how one approach will result from another. Only educated (or for me, non-educated guesses).
Thank you for coming by here, you all had interesting input in to this and its valued.
I'll probably be by again when I find my head against a wall which is likely to happen!
Stay healthy and thank you,
Phil Donovan
In regards to another comment here, I got into email exchange with one of Eminence's audio techs, and he informed me of a speaker they produced specifically designed for fiddle and violin players. They named it the, "Guit-Fiddle". It was a usable range of 80-4.5Khz and is 100 watts. He also recommended a particular super tweeter that he felt would make a good partner with the speaker to give me the rest of the frequencies that my guitar is happy to produce in spades. Its a 35 watt super tweeter with a range from 3.5Khz to 20Khz. I would be happy to design a crossover and build it for the project. There seems to be very good free apps available for this (XSim I believe is one of them)?
So this sounds like a good way to go for what I'm doing - afterall, I'm not trying to "reproduce" audio, I am trying to "produce" a sound for an instrument. I may have been trying too hard in the wrong direction for starters. Well certainly the only way to really find out is to start somewhere and see where I land. This is a fairly unique situation so, I really don't have a reason to think I know how one approach will result from another. Only educated (or for me, non-educated guesses).
Thank you for coming by here, you all had interesting input in to this and its valued.
I'll probably be by again when I find my head against a wall which is likely to happen!
Stay healthy and thank you,
Phil Donovan
I ran a mobile disco for many years in small to medium sized gigs.
I got away with a 225WRMS power amplifier.
I had four Fane 12-50WRMS speakers, with a pair in each box and that was seriously loud when needed. The cabinets were sealed.
I got away with a 225WRMS power amplifier.
I had four Fane 12-50WRMS speakers, with a pair in each box and that was seriously loud when needed. The cabinets were sealed.
Visaton b200 looks kind of nice. Not sure how easy it will be to mic a speaker with a crossover?
Last edited:
micing speaker with crossover
Micing a loudspeaker with a crossover.
I've found that we really have to watch out for local TV stations that send their crew down to record video of the gig for their town station. Quite often a tech would be found sticking something like a Shure SM58 right into the cone of a 15" woofer. In trying to explain that there will be nothing over 1-2K present in the recording you would be met with smile and a "we'll work with it, it will be fine".
Of course, you know dang well how that playback is going to sound
And it did.
Best and thanks,
Phil
Micing a loudspeaker with a crossover.
I've found that we really have to watch out for local TV stations that send their crew down to record video of the gig for their town station. Quite often a tech would be found sticking something like a Shure SM58 right into the cone of a 15" woofer. In trying to explain that there will be nothing over 1-2K present in the recording you would be met with smile and a "we'll work with it, it will be fine".
Of course, you know dang well how that playback is going to sound
And it did.
Best and thanks,
Phil
"Guit-fiddle" has a paper surround. Then you're adding a tweeter. Seems a little slipshod. You sure you didn't get slicked by a sales dude?
slicked by salesman
Thanks for coming by tansand,
Sure I could have been slicked by a salesman. The whole speaker/tweeter match up is a new world to me.
Could you briefly educate me in the issue with a match up concerning that? I never imagined that speaker material itself would impact compatibility with a separate tweeter but, that's why I'm posting about these things now.
Thank you,
Phil
Thanks for coming by tansand,
Sure I could have been slicked by a salesman. The whole speaker/tweeter match up is a new world to me.
Could you briefly educate me in the issue with a match up concerning that? I never imagined that speaker material itself would impact compatibility with a separate tweeter but, that's why I'm posting about these things now.
Thank you,
Phil
XRK's XKi with Eminence's Beta8X with an inexpensive compression driver would be pretty powerful/rugged and external bulk not much over a cubic foot.
12-250TC could be used in a 2-cubic foot internal volume sealed box with series capacitor.
Look at its predicted performance in only 40 liters with a series cap
For $59 PRV has a durable 10 inch fullrange speaker - its main fault would be higher QTS than wanted for vented application. (generally a SBB4/6th order Q of 0.31 is good) It should play decently in a stock Karlson "K12" cabinet. I'm not super fond of Beta12LTA but it might work well enough in K12. (That combo could play Danley's Harley recording whereas my AN10 in a 42Hz tuned reflex completely fell apart and jumped out of the gap on that track.
A K12 with kappa 12A topped with a "k-tube" could be nice with good power handling. That's one of my fave combo.
An XKi alignment with PRV's 10FR300 would probably like so
12-250TC could be used in a 2-cubic foot internal volume sealed box with series capacitor.
Look at its predicted performance in only 40 liters with a series cap
For $59 PRV has a durable 10 inch fullrange speaker - its main fault would be higher QTS than wanted for vented application. (generally a SBB4/6th order Q of 0.31 is good) It should play decently in a stock Karlson "K12" cabinet. I'm not super fond of Beta12LTA but it might work well enough in K12. (That combo could play Danley's Harley recording whereas my AN10 in a 42Hz tuned reflex completely fell apart and jumped out of the gap on that track.
A K12 with kappa 12A topped with a "k-tube" could be nice with good power handling. That's one of my fave combo.
An XKi alignment with PRV's 10FR300 would probably like so
Last edited:
I think the main concerns with the eminence plan is that a paper surround is a fairly low performance option, there is no damping for the soundwaves moving around and breaking up across he surface of the cone, and Xmax is limited by the stiffness of the paper surround. This is the same technology in an old console, or a modern ceiling announcement speaker ($15 or whatever). Cloth is the best, it seems like.
The Fane mentioned (etc! freddi) seems like a much better driver to me, even if you're going to cross it to a tweeter. With the tweeter the speaker will still start beaming at higher-mid frequencies, and then regain it's dispersion as the tweeter takes over, which contributes to the two sources not blending smoothly, even if the crossover is well designed.
It's basically a two way PA speaker. Nothing wrong with that, but they're plentiful and well refined, used or new?
Last edited:
The Viston B200 actually is interesting, 40W rms, 70W peak 60-18khz or so.
In looking at a speaker like this it makes me wonder what the volume/projection differences are between a speaker like this and a typical guitar type speaker. There may be non as far as I know but having been only a guitar speaker user up to this point, I have to wonder. Is a speaker like this designed more for home entertainment? Live loud projecting PA? This is an aspect that evades me at this point.
In looking at a speaker like this it makes me wonder what the volume/projection differences are between a speaker like this and a typical guitar type speaker. There may be non as far as I know but having been only a guitar speaker user up to this point, I have to wonder. Is a speaker like this designed more for home entertainment? Live loud projecting PA? This is an aspect that evades me at this point.
I've never heard one, for hi-fi I like smaller drivers. Seems like it was designed specifically for the hi-fi fullrange geek market. It doesn't have a lot of efficiency per se, so it's kind of marginal for your purpose. One thing that might not be apparent is that the Karlson type enclosures freddi posted about have the diffracting curved edges in front of the drivers which increase dispersion with the beaming drivers..rolling up with a pair of Karlson enclosures is putting on a pretty good show imo. 🙂
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
Last edited:
Also note there were some mods to the eminence beta8cx cabinet..
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ful...itio-karlson-6th-bandpass-15.html#post4208201
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ful...itio-karlson-6th-bandpass-15.html#post4208201
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
you can ask X what he finally did with that Beta 8cx XKi vent. If the back panel were made removable then adjustments could be made.
I'd imagine a crossover whose lowpass filter does not compensate for baffle step would balance better than one which incorporates it.
Nexos has an interesting patent where they slot their shelf vents to advantage. It would be interesting to get an idea of how to apply that method to avoid some cancellation effects.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/6f/8b/29/357e1bb79011ca/US20150222984A1.pdf
I'd imagine a crossover whose lowpass filter does not compensate for baffle step would balance better than one which incorporates it.
Nexos has an interesting patent where they slot their shelf vents to advantage. It would be interesting to get an idea of how to apply that method to avoid some cancellation effects.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/6f/8b/29/357e1bb79011ca/US20150222984A1.pdf
I came across this driver. It only goes to 5khz but it looks pretty smooth up there. It's kind of a cross between a fullrange and a guitar speaker. They made the cone shallow and curved and the surround pretty stiff. Sealed cabinet looks best. Ymmv.
https://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401030100
https://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401030100