I looking for build something this winter and I'd like to get advice from everyone here. A big thank you to HiFiCompass for all of the information available on their website. I tried to find drivers that I thought had some of the best performance where they would be utilized for this project.
Tweeter: ScanSpeak 9900
ScanSpeak D2905/990000 | HiFiCompass
Midrange: I am open to ideas from everyone here. I like the Purifi 6.5" driver, Satori Textreme or AudioTechnology 18H. I have always had a fondness for AudioTechnology products. I could even start with Mr. Bagby's Spirit Wind then add the bass bin underneath.
Midwoofer: SB Acoustics SB23NRSS45-8
SB Acoustics SB23NRXS45-8 | HiFiCompass
Woofer: SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 (prefer a 10" driver for cabinet size reasons)
SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 | HiFiCompass
I'd like to keep the TM behind a passive crossover and the other two drivers on a FA252 for power and filtering.
Hypex FusionAmp FA252 (250W+250W)
If a passive radiator isn't used on the midrange I like the look and benefits of a faceted cabinet like seen here.
Any critiques or additional thoughts out there?
Tweeter: ScanSpeak 9900
ScanSpeak D2905/990000 | HiFiCompass
Midrange: I am open to ideas from everyone here. I like the Purifi 6.5" driver, Satori Textreme or AudioTechnology 18H. I have always had a fondness for AudioTechnology products. I could even start with Mr. Bagby's Spirit Wind then add the bass bin underneath.
Midwoofer: SB Acoustics SB23NRSS45-8
SB Acoustics SB23NRXS45-8 | HiFiCompass
Woofer: SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 (prefer a 10" driver for cabinet size reasons)
SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 | HiFiCompass
I'd like to keep the TM behind a passive crossover and the other two drivers on a FA252 for power and filtering.
Hypex FusionAmp FA252 (250W+250W)
If a passive radiator isn't used on the midrange I like the look and benefits of a faceted cabinet like seen here.
Any critiques or additional thoughts out there?
Attachments
Only thought is that what you're talking about is a four-way speaker, a three way should be able to to cover just about everything and be (relatively) simpler to design. These are expensive drivers and unless you can get the crossover right you will not be happy with the sound. That said, I haven't used a FA52 so maybe all you have to worry about is the crossover for the tweeter and mid?
Still, that has to be right for the speaker to sound good.
Geoff
Still, that has to be right for the speaker to sound good.
Geoff
I was born and raised in New Hampshire. Being from New England does feel like a different country at times. 🙂
My goal with this build is to create something that could compete with those big, expensive speakers like Alexia Series 2 and Vandersteen's offerings.
I plan on keeping these speakers for LONG time!
My goal with this build is to create something that could compete with those big, expensive speakers like Alexia Series 2 and Vandersteen's offerings.
I plan on keeping these speakers for LONG time!
If you find the right project, yours may well sound better than expensive commercial products: remember that allegedly about half of what you pay is mark-up, according to many sources. I've heard speakers with four figure price tags that don't sound as good as my Classix II.
While I haven't heard them, high end DIY designs like Curt Campbell's Bordeaux, Joe Rasmussen's Elsinores, Dennis Murphy's Philharmonias (just off the top of my head, there are many others) will reportedly give anything a run for the money.
Could you let us know about room size, music preferences, cabinet size/type, etc? It sounds like budget isn't an issue.
Cheers
Geoff
While I haven't heard them, high end DIY designs like Curt Campbell's Bordeaux, Joe Rasmussen's Elsinores, Dennis Murphy's Philharmonias (just off the top of my head, there are many others) will reportedly give anything a run for the money.
Could you let us know about room size, music preferences, cabinet size/type, etc? It sounds like budget isn't an issue.
Cheers
Geoff
Last edited:
3 way or 4 way...
Most (but not all) 4 ways could be fairly categorized as a 3 way + sub. If the lowest crossover in a 4way is 120 Hz or below, I think it would be fair to call the lowest driver a "subwoofer".
Some people start the design process by picking out a mid driver that they like... For me it helps to start with the HF driver and see how low it can go, since that will drive the selection of the mid driver, which will in turn form the requirements of the bass driver(s).
If the best sounding tweeters had a pass band that only extended down to 4k or so, we might see a lot more 4 ways. But most of the really great sounding tweeters can be comfortably crossed as low as 2.5k or 2k... some even lower. This includes many beryllium tweeters, AMTs, and ribbons... certainly your Scanspeak 2905/9900 is highly capable of getting down to 2k.
So now you know you need a mid driver that needs to have excellent behavior and dispersion up to 2k... but not up to 4k. This lets you go with a 5 or 6 inch driver for the mid. Any of the drivers you mentioned could work really well... so how low can a 6 inch driver go? well generally 200 Hz would be no problem, even at quite high SPL...
So now you need a woofer(s) that can go from deep-deep up to 200 Hz. There are a lot of combinations that would work.
Vandersteen needs to use 4 way because they are wedded to 1st order crossovers, so each driver needs to operate over a very large bandwidth. Wilson and Magico do 3 ways. BW 800 diamond is 3way.
When I look at your driver selection, i think the 8 inch driver is an unnecessary complication. Go for 12 - 6 - 1. You won't miss the 8 between the 12 and the 6... my humble opinion.
Most (but not all) 4 ways could be fairly categorized as a 3 way + sub. If the lowest crossover in a 4way is 120 Hz or below, I think it would be fair to call the lowest driver a "subwoofer".
Some people start the design process by picking out a mid driver that they like... For me it helps to start with the HF driver and see how low it can go, since that will drive the selection of the mid driver, which will in turn form the requirements of the bass driver(s).
If the best sounding tweeters had a pass band that only extended down to 4k or so, we might see a lot more 4 ways. But most of the really great sounding tweeters can be comfortably crossed as low as 2.5k or 2k... some even lower. This includes many beryllium tweeters, AMTs, and ribbons... certainly your Scanspeak 2905/9900 is highly capable of getting down to 2k.
So now you know you need a mid driver that needs to have excellent behavior and dispersion up to 2k... but not up to 4k. This lets you go with a 5 or 6 inch driver for the mid. Any of the drivers you mentioned could work really well... so how low can a 6 inch driver go? well generally 200 Hz would be no problem, even at quite high SPL...
So now you need a woofer(s) that can go from deep-deep up to 200 Hz. There are a lot of combinations that would work.
Vandersteen needs to use 4 way because they are wedded to 1st order crossovers, so each driver needs to operate over a very large bandwidth. Wilson and Magico do 3 ways. BW 800 diamond is 3way.
When I look at your driver selection, i think the 8 inch driver is an unnecessary complication. Go for 12 - 6 - 1. You won't miss the 8 between the 12 and the 6... my humble opinion.
Thank you for all of the input. I am aware of almost every DIY design website on the interweb. I have not found a design that meets exactly what I am looking for in regards to unique looks and over the top parts. Troels Gravesen's work comes close but it's not exactly what I am looking for. I also don't see much on his site about off-axis response so I am hesitant as I have read mixed thoughts about his design approach. I intended on building Jeff Bagby's Helios or one of the Purifi 2-ways (HiFiCompass or xrk971) but having a hard time figuring out how to turn those into unique 3-ways. I gotta have a 3-way 🙂
I want a split cabinet speaker because of it being easier to move/relocate and I feel this type of design offers flexibility in design options. Also, my last DIY speaker used quality drivers and the snob in me prefers the boutique options. I sold the speakers because they were designed (with the help of others) by a young 20-something me which were clunky and too dark in color with an automative glossy black finish.
I currently live in an apartment but I will own a house again someday which will have ample space for a stereo system - it's a must. I intend on starting with the 2-way build that will ultimately be outfitted with a bass bin. I'd like my speakers to be the centerpiece of my home because it's where all of my passion resides and I want it to be a conversation starter.
I spend too much time on a computer/thinking during my day to want to tackle the crossover design on my own. I'm hoping to find someone to design the passive crossover for the MT section for me. I understand that they would need the speaker(s) to do that. This is another reason for the two cabinet approach so I can ship part of it more easily. I am currently looking for someone locally I can pay to assist me in the cabinet build and finish. This part I want to do as much of as I can. It's important to me to be able to say that I built the speakers while also being able to explain the electronic/acoustic aspects. I am an electrical engineer after all; who also does acoustic design work for a local company on the side.
The active bass bin is interesting because I could measure and tweek to my heart's content from my couch. Sure seems like it would also help obtaining a flat in-room frequency response where the MT handoff.
I'd say my budget would be about $4k for drivers and active components.
Sorry for the wicked long post. I am just trying to figure how I could build a unique looking speaker that is over the top with performance to match.
Open to all ideas out there.
I want a split cabinet speaker because of it being easier to move/relocate and I feel this type of design offers flexibility in design options. Also, my last DIY speaker used quality drivers and the snob in me prefers the boutique options. I sold the speakers because they were designed (with the help of others) by a young 20-something me which were clunky and too dark in color with an automative glossy black finish.
I currently live in an apartment but I will own a house again someday which will have ample space for a stereo system - it's a must. I intend on starting with the 2-way build that will ultimately be outfitted with a bass bin. I'd like my speakers to be the centerpiece of my home because it's where all of my passion resides and I want it to be a conversation starter.
I spend too much time on a computer/thinking during my day to want to tackle the crossover design on my own. I'm hoping to find someone to design the passive crossover for the MT section for me. I understand that they would need the speaker(s) to do that. This is another reason for the two cabinet approach so I can ship part of it more easily. I am currently looking for someone locally I can pay to assist me in the cabinet build and finish. This part I want to do as much of as I can. It's important to me to be able to say that I built the speakers while also being able to explain the electronic/acoustic aspects. I am an electrical engineer after all; who also does acoustic design work for a local company on the side.
The active bass bin is interesting because I could measure and tweek to my heart's content from my couch. Sure seems like it would also help obtaining a flat in-room frequency response where the MT handoff.
I'd say my budget would be about $4k for drivers and active components.
Sorry for the wicked long post. I am just trying to figure how I could build a unique looking speaker that is over the top with performance to match.
Open to all ideas out there.
Have you ever seen this graphic?
It's from Floyd Toole's book on home audio. The point he makes in the book is that you need two audio systems, one for low frequencies below the small room transition frequency and a separate one above. A four way speaker can't deal with the low frequency zone.
In fact, if you look at Floyd Toole's house you'll see Revel Salon 2s mounted upside down. Strange. But the part I'm not sure is widely known is that Todd Welti specifically crossed the low frequencies out of the Revel Salon 2s in Toole's house. The low frequencies from the Revel Salon 2s interfered with Welti's four subwoofer low frequency sound field management system.
So, if Welti and Toole crossed the low frequencies out of the Salon 2s I'd argue it isn't a good idea to follow that kind of design as a DIYer. Instead, just build the top part and then add a low frequency multi-sub sound field management system.
It's from Floyd Toole's book on home audio. The point he makes in the book is that you need two audio systems, one for low frequencies below the small room transition frequency and a separate one above. A four way speaker can't deal with the low frequency zone.
In fact, if you look at Floyd Toole's house you'll see Revel Salon 2s mounted upside down. Strange. But the part I'm not sure is widely known is that Todd Welti specifically crossed the low frequencies out of the Revel Salon 2s in Toole's house. The low frequencies from the Revel Salon 2s interfered with Welti's four subwoofer low frequency sound field management system.
So, if Welti and Toole crossed the low frequencies out of the Salon 2s I'd argue it isn't a good idea to follow that kind of design as a DIYer. Instead, just build the top part and then add a low frequency multi-sub sound field management system.
Attachments
How About Jeff Bagby's Spiritwinds (using the tweeter you have picked out with a AT C-Quence woofer you identified) and sit these on top of a Seas L26ROY + Passive Radiator sub box. Add a Hypex FA amp onto the rear of the sub box and and you have both active crossover and some room eq ability. Spritwinds can be passive crossover and amp of your choice or use a two channel FA or an additional separate hypex amp from Nord/Ghent to match the FA, the NC500 would be cracking.
Spirit Wind, Bare Bones Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
This is what the l26 sub plus passive radiator looks like and seas have info of this arrangement in a 40-50l box.
http://www.seas.no/images/stories/design/pdf_datasheet/L26ROY_Application_Note.pdf
Spirit Wind, Bare Bones Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
This is what the l26 sub plus passive radiator looks like and seas have info of this arrangement in a 40-50l box.
http://www.seas.no/images/stories/design/pdf_datasheet/L26ROY_Application_Note.pdf
Last edited:
Troels Gravesen have a number of well designed projects which you could use as a starting point.
DIY-Loudspeakers
F.ex this is likely to be a speaker one could live with for a long time:
SBA-741
or this:
SBA-761
Tony Gee also have a number of interesting projects
Humble Homemade Hifi - Archive
DIY-Loudspeakers
F.ex this is likely to be a speaker one could live with for a long time:
SBA-741
or this:
SBA-761
Tony Gee also have a number of interesting projects
Humble Homemade Hifi - Archive
Last edited:
If you want to go fully active, you might try something like this. I used separate woofer drivers for the same reasons you outlined...
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
My winter project will be to build a new set of satellites using Satori Textreme drivers.
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
My winter project will be to build a new set of satellites using Satori Textreme drivers.
Thank you for all of the feedback guys.
The Spirit Winds are looking like a winner to me. I have admired Jeff's skills and knowledge for a long time.
The Seas bass bin I have seen before. I prefer the look of black cones or domes. One reason why I don't consider some of the Accuton offerings.
What approach do folks take when approaching a 3-way? Do they aim for a crossover point between 200-400 Hz depending on the midrange driver used? Looks like most folks in this thread are suggesting letting the midrange play down below 100 Hz with a capable woofer to handle the rest. I don't hate that idea at all.
The Spirit Winds are looking like a winner to me. I have admired Jeff's skills and knowledge for a long time.
The Seas bass bin I have seen before. I prefer the look of black cones or domes. One reason why I don't consider some of the Accuton offerings.
What approach do folks take when approaching a 3-way? Do they aim for a crossover point between 200-400 Hz depending on the midrange driver used? Looks like most folks in this thread are suggesting letting the midrange play down below 100 Hz with a capable woofer to handle the rest. I don't hate that idea at all.
Troels seems to like the Audio Technology 10C77-25-10-KAP as a bass driver, Link below gives a load of info on it. But they are not cheap, 690euro in Europe - each!
10C77
As for the L26ROY, just build a black grill to go over the fronts.
If you want really deep in a smallish box And can cross over below 300hz then have a look at the Scanspeak 23w4557, goes really deep in a BR Of around 50l And is pretty good sealed but is very inefficient, c.80db/w/m but as you are looking at the FA hypex amps that should not be an issue, you can eq out and add a link with transform to a closed box and get decently low. Again not cheap But does the job.
Finally an alternative to the L26ROY but black might be the SB29NRX75 with passive radiator (an option on the Bagby Kairos/Continuum 3 way mod) or Scanspeak 26W4558 again with the matching PR.
Troels does a sub with the 23W and PR plus hypex amp, no reason why this could not be made like the tall L26ROY version with front firing PR.
Subwoofer-26W
10C77
As for the L26ROY, just build a black grill to go over the fronts.
If you want really deep in a smallish box And can cross over below 300hz then have a look at the Scanspeak 23w4557, goes really deep in a BR Of around 50l And is pretty good sealed but is very inefficient, c.80db/w/m but as you are looking at the FA hypex amps that should not be an issue, you can eq out and add a link with transform to a closed box and get decently low. Again not cheap But does the job.
Finally an alternative to the L26ROY but black might be the SB29NRX75 with passive radiator (an option on the Bagby Kairos/Continuum 3 way mod) or Scanspeak 26W4558 again with the matching PR.
Troels does a sub with the 23W and PR plus hypex amp, no reason why this could not be made like the tall L26ROY version with front firing PR.
Subwoofer-26W
Last edited:
With all of the heartache we have seen in 2020 I feel like the DIY speaker scene has been one bright spot in the world. I have been following DIY audio for 15 years and what I see from this year is more energy around new products and the tackling of unique design concepts. Hmm...anyone else concur with these sentiments?
After doing more deep dives into DIY designs I am leaning heavily towards building the Helios again. If measurements of the Satori TW29BNWG (TW29BN w/ waveguide) prove that it's exactly what Mr. Bagby designed the Helios with then I might start with that build for the current apartment living. The measurements really should be phenomenal if built right.
To go after an all-out assault of a 3-way, one could borrow from the lower half of Mr. Noerbaek's SBA 951 which utilizes two WO24 woofers crossed over at 200Hz. On paper, I think this proposed design could compete with any DIY 3-way build I could find on the interweb. Thoughts on this craziness?
What effects do you think would occur if the Helios sat on top of a cabinet (solid surface) opposed to a stand (open air) as was designed by Jeff and Javad?
Thank you all for continuing to offer your time chiming in on this thread. I have spent countless hours navigating through Troels' site and Humble Homemade HiFi over the years. Troels' site is actually the first web visit I make every morning to see if he posted a new design or added another share from a DIY'er from around the world. I appreciate all of the suggestions pointing to Troels' and Tony's work.
On a last note, the AudioTechnology 10C77 is one driver I have dreamed of utilizing in a build. After reading the experiences DIY'ers have had using the 10" driver, I have been sold on its capabilities. I have not decided against using it, if I ever do decide to go with a 3-way design, however dual WO24 seems like it should out perform any single 10" driver out there even from the likes of the Skaaning family or from Lambda Acoustics.
After doing more deep dives into DIY designs I am leaning heavily towards building the Helios again. If measurements of the Satori TW29BNWG (TW29BN w/ waveguide) prove that it's exactly what Mr. Bagby designed the Helios with then I might start with that build for the current apartment living. The measurements really should be phenomenal if built right.
To go after an all-out assault of a 3-way, one could borrow from the lower half of Mr. Noerbaek's SBA 951 which utilizes two WO24 woofers crossed over at 200Hz. On paper, I think this proposed design could compete with any DIY 3-way build I could find on the interweb. Thoughts on this craziness?
What effects do you think would occur if the Helios sat on top of a cabinet (solid surface) opposed to a stand (open air) as was designed by Jeff and Javad?
Thank you all for continuing to offer your time chiming in on this thread. I have spent countless hours navigating through Troels' site and Humble Homemade HiFi over the years. Troels' site is actually the first web visit I make every morning to see if he posted a new design or added another share from a DIY'er from around the world. I appreciate all of the suggestions pointing to Troels' and Tony's work.
On a last note, the AudioTechnology 10C77 is one driver I have dreamed of utilizing in a build. After reading the experiences DIY'ers have had using the 10" driver, I have been sold on its capabilities. I have not decided against using it, if I ever do decide to go with a 3-way design, however dual WO24 seems like it should out perform any single 10" driver out there even from the likes of the Skaaning family or from Lambda Acoustics.
Last edited: