Hi,
Yes, the professional illusionist, mountebank and confidence trickster known as "The Amazing Randi" (sorry for having gotten this wrong on prior occasions as "The Great Randi" - credit where it is due) does rather prefer to stack his deck with jokers (and keeps a few Ace's up his sleeve).
He will never be shown for what he is by any honest person, attempting to show something they hold true. Though any confidence trickster more capable (in other words anyone not just "Amazing" but "Beyond Amazing") can do so easily.
If the test protocols are demander to be made fair, "The Amazing Randi" invokes the "Get out of jail free Joker", in which it is the "Foundation" that stipulates what is acceptable as proof, which is then suitably readjusted.
I really fail to see why anyone in their right mind would carry on such an elaborate con job. But a lack of reasonable motive has never proven to be a hindrance to any Phanatique, since Basher Dowsing...
Ciao T
Yes, the professional illusionist, mountebank and confidence trickster known as "The Amazing Randi" (sorry for having gotten this wrong on prior occasions as "The Great Randi" - credit where it is due) does rather prefer to stack his deck with jokers (and keeps a few Ace's up his sleeve).
He will never be shown for what he is by any honest person, attempting to show something they hold true. Though any confidence trickster more capable (in other words anyone not just "Amazing" but "Beyond Amazing") can do so easily.
If the test protocols are demander to be made fair, "The Amazing Randi" invokes the "Get out of jail free Joker", in which it is the "Foundation" that stipulates what is acceptable as proof, which is then suitably readjusted.
I really fail to see why anyone in their right mind would carry on such an elaborate con job. But a lack of reasonable motive has never proven to be a hindrance to any Phanatique, since Basher Dowsing...
Ciao T
You do? I thought we all had a good idea about why the vast majority of 'hifi' wire companies carry on with their elaborate con jobs. 😉
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Hi,
Just one question, how many people do you know off who have made their first and second million in HiFi (Amar B*se disqualified, as what he does is not HiFi).
I know a fair few people in the HiFi Business personally, non are "rich" in the way Wall Street Bankers or military subcontractors or those who adulterate and poison our daily food routinely are (though most do live comfortable) or a professional illusionist and confidence trickster like "THE AMAZING RANDI".
Most in fact could make more money doing their "real" jobs and often did the make money to dabble in HiFi in those jobs. They do it because they "love music", some others because they "love hifi".
There are of course exception, like Sidney Harmon and Noel "Headmonster" Lee (and Amar), but funny enough, they generally did not make the big bux with expensive "High End" either, but with "MidFi" and below stuff...
So, what I most of all do not get is why some people single out High End makers and claim them to be scum of the earth, when there are so many more deserving targets, but...
Ciao T
Just one question, how many people do you know off who have made their first and second million in HiFi (Amar B*se disqualified, as what he does is not HiFi).
I know a fair few people in the HiFi Business personally, non are "rich" in the way Wall Street Bankers or military subcontractors or those who adulterate and poison our daily food routinely are (though most do live comfortable) or a professional illusionist and confidence trickster like "THE AMAZING RANDI".
Most in fact could make more money doing their "real" jobs and often did the make money to dabble in HiFi in those jobs. They do it because they "love music", some others because they "love hifi".
There are of course exception, like Sidney Harmon and Noel "Headmonster" Lee (and Amar), but funny enough, they generally did not make the big bux with expensive "High End" either, but with "MidFi" and below stuff...
So, what I most of all do not get is why some people single out High End makers and claim them to be scum of the earth, when there are so many more deserving targets, but...
Ciao T
Frankly, I couldn't care tuppence how many people have made how many millions in audio. Nor did I mention high end. Or any end come to that (although Pippa Middleton's rear end is certainly worthy of contemplation). The fact is, the hifi wire industry is riddled with liars, knowingly peddling false or misleading information in order to flog products which frequently have an enormous mark-up. Simple as that.
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Except they leave out what a weasel Randy was for disingenuously pulling the rug out from under Fremer.
se
Hi,
The Mark-ups are observable, though with ANY vertical market item you find them as well.
From Sportscar's and Rolex Watches via Armani Suits to luxury appartments (I was scandalised recently to find that that a certain development attempts to sell their property with a nice view [but no beach access] for 16 times that of my apartment [I do hope the value of mine goes up though, as a result - go ahead and call me a hypocrite], but offers smaller windows and worse design and build quality...).
If you do not like the markups, follow Caveat Emptor and don't buy. I mean no-one is holding a gun to your head and making you, right? Buy what you like.
As to: "riddled with liars, knowingly peddling false or misleading information", yes, there are some, but probably fewer than you may expect.
The same BTW may be said of many if not any other trade, be it 2nd Hand Car sales people, double glazing sales people, Builders, Canary Warf and City Investment Bankers, Politicians and not the least News of the World Journalists and Editors or indeed the owners of said former publication and as we are being told, even the old bill.
Maybe try for a change not "Hug A Hoodie" after the events of the week before last I believe this has been changed to "Arrest, Try, Convict and send down A Hoodie", but try "get to know HiFi makers".
You may be pleasantly surprised in some cases to find all your prejudices fully confirmed, though in many you may feel disappointed on the same score when you find that many be wanting in many areas, but are not knowing and willing liars.
Ciao T
PS, I feel there are still causes by far more worthy to oppose and fight than HiFI makers, but I remarked on this before twice above...
The Mark-ups are observable, though with ANY vertical market item you find them as well.
From Sportscar's and Rolex Watches via Armani Suits to luxury appartments (I was scandalised recently to find that that a certain development attempts to sell their property with a nice view [but no beach access] for 16 times that of my apartment [I do hope the value of mine goes up though, as a result - go ahead and call me a hypocrite], but offers smaller windows and worse design and build quality...).
If you do not like the markups, follow Caveat Emptor and don't buy. I mean no-one is holding a gun to your head and making you, right? Buy what you like.
As to: "riddled with liars, knowingly peddling false or misleading information", yes, there are some, but probably fewer than you may expect.
The same BTW may be said of many if not any other trade, be it 2nd Hand Car sales people, double glazing sales people, Builders, Canary Warf and City Investment Bankers, Politicians and not the least News of the World Journalists and Editors or indeed the owners of said former publication and as we are being told, even the old bill.
Maybe try for a change not "Hug A Hoodie" after the events of the week before last I believe this has been changed to "Arrest, Try, Convict and send down A Hoodie", but try "get to know HiFi makers".
You may be pleasantly surprised in some cases to find all your prejudices fully confirmed, though in many you may feel disappointed on the same score when you find that many be wanting in many areas, but are not knowing and willing liars.
Ciao T
PS, I feel there are still causes by far more worthy to oppose and fight than HiFI makers, but I remarked on this before twice above...
now Scott, don't distract us, I just got over watching a time-shifted interview with Hayley Atwell on the tube last night - either end of which is worth of contemplation
still, they are servicing a clientele willing to spend obscene amounts of money (and often suspend disbelief that by not doing so they're missing something life-changingly relevatory*), and certainly committing less harm than the purveyors/pushers of unnecessary prescription drugs, radical political/ religious agenda - fill in your own blanks.
*not restricted of course to cabling - at a recent visit to a local shop the reply to my frequent tease of "OK boys, what's (really) new and exciting?" answer was - "Power regenerators - 'cause of course you know the power is the source". The implication is that if you're not man enough to try out a minimum $1200 conditioner (described as essentially a high current, low distortion 60Hz power amplifier) the rest of time/money invested in your system is wasted - even if you're not a charter member of the $100K club. "You won't wanna bring it back" Maybe - but I've still got memories of whiplash from all the bandwagon jumping during the mid-late 80s - there are a lot of things I've learned to live without in my audio system during the past 15yrs, and the approval of "peers" and earnest audio sales personnel (who have their own bills to pay) is among them.
The Randi Million Dollar Challenge
"A Lawyer Explains: James Randi Challenge Exposed"
A Lawyer Explains: James Randi Challenge Exposed - JREF Forum
Start with post #4
"A Lawyer Explains: James Randi Challenge Exposed"
A Lawyer Explains: James Randi Challenge Exposed - JREF Forum
Start with post #4
You are unfair. They have to invest a lot in research and development, diving all these metals wires in all these hot and cold liquids, listening to the sound of all those isolating material and their combinations, including varnishes, and that, both for all those kind of + and - electrons in order to determine the good sens for the cables...
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A few- Mark Levinson, Matt Polk, Sandy Gross, Bill Johnson, Noel Lee, John Atkinson, Larry Archibald... I know a lot more who THINK that there's millions to be made, but the opportunities are shrinking as audio per se becomes more marginalized.
This is not to excuse the peddlers of snake oil. Just because they're not successfully raking in millions doesn't make them any less reprehensible. They would stand a better chance in the quack medicine game.
I'll start to prepare a new range of genuine Victorian era cure-alls. I think the market would stand a return of Pink Pills for Pale People.
Yeah, right. If you say so. There's about a googol of them. You want us to list them? We can do that easily enough (this is a field of rich pickings), but it'd be a heck of a long one.
I know. The amount of time and money they put into their in-depth research and engineering... staggering. And the scientific advances; the Nobel prizes they have won! 😀
You could have a point there. A damn sight more interesting than wire, that's for sure.
Agreed. I still call liars when I see them though.
Yeah, right. If you say so. There's about a googol of them. You want us to list them? We can do that easily enough (this is a field of rich pickings), but it'd be a heck of a long one.
I know. The amount of time and money they put into their in-depth research and engineering... staggering. And the scientific advances; the Nobel prizes they have won! 😀
You could have a point there. A damn sight more interesting than wire, that's for sure.
Agreed. I still call liars when I see them though.
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The real reason audiophiles purchase wire products is because it is low hanging fruit. You don't have to have much technical know how to change wires. Speakers are scary, amps are a devilish mystery. But wires are accessible. I must point out that most of the people who post on this forum can address more than wires, eventually, unless they run away after their ignorance is displayed for them.
This desire to have some influence upon their hidey hole hobby is what drives the masses, who really do like music, into purchasing wires. Since they have no (and do not really want uncomfortable) objective standards to judge by, they utilize market standards. Ferrari's are better cars than Corvette's. The proof is in the price and a few marketing rags called magazines. The same must be true in audio. Designer wires with a nice story that can be retold to others are going to outsell something any fool can purchase at Radio Shack.
Why wouldn't their counterparts in knowledge provide a good story, proof through price and sell them expensive low hanging fruit? Fruit that makes them think (?) they are participating in their hobby and have better music because of this participation. Why would these purchasers care about an objective opinion, when the one that matters to them in particular has been satisfied by purchasing a more expensive set of wires that they can actually utilize?
Read about chimpanzee social organization. Give some thought to our "progress".
Bud
This desire to have some influence upon their hidey hole hobby is what drives the masses, who really do like music, into purchasing wires. Since they have no (and do not really want uncomfortable) objective standards to judge by, they utilize market standards. Ferrari's are better cars than Corvette's. The proof is in the price and a few marketing rags called magazines. The same must be true in audio. Designer wires with a nice story that can be retold to others are going to outsell something any fool can purchase at Radio Shack.
Why wouldn't their counterparts in knowledge provide a good story, proof through price and sell them expensive low hanging fruit? Fruit that makes them think (?) they are participating in their hobby and have better music because of this participation. Why would these purchasers care about an objective opinion, when the one that matters to them in particular has been satisfied by purchasing a more expensive set of wires that they can actually utilize?
Read about chimpanzee social organization. Give some thought to our "progress".
Bud
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It's really about the ego, you try to educate someone who has been scammed and they will defend their ego with all the nonsense that sold them on the scam in the first place. sad really.
A few 'corrections'. I doubt that just because Mark Levinson spent money like a millionaire, that he really became one. In fact, he bankrupted Mark Levinson Audio Systems, and lost the company. It is possible that his ex wife did make some money from 1/2 the stock that she got in the divorce, but I suspect that Mark did not get so much. Cello was funded by a Japanese investor who had made lots of money from the original Mark Levinson Audio Systems, and then was summarily cut off by HK, who started to market the company in Japan. I think this was both a 'getting back' at HK, who basically 'stole' a successful product line, and giving this investor something to sell in Japan in order to have an equivalent company in his lineup.
If I am not mistaken, John Atkinson and Larry Archibald were bought by a big corporation at just the right time. I know that Gordon Holt did not benefit much from the sale of the magazine. This happens, and I do not resent someone getting lucky.
There are several others mentioned, but I cannot comment on them, as I do not know them very much.
I am always miffed that once, in 1977, I had to bail out Noel Lee out by using MY credit card to rent a car in Chicago. He made plenty later, but he was pretty broke, at first. He made his money in MID-FI, not hi end. He failed in hi end, closing SYMMETRY that was hi end, around 1980.
If I am not mistaken, John Atkinson and Larry Archibald were bought by a big corporation at just the right time. I know that Gordon Holt did not benefit much from the sale of the magazine. This happens, and I do not resent someone getting lucky.
There are several others mentioned, but I cannot comment on them, as I do not know them very much.
I am always miffed that once, in 1977, I had to bail out Noel Lee out by using MY credit card to rent a car in Chicago. He made plenty later, but he was pretty broke, at first. He made his money in MID-FI, not hi end. He failed in hi end, closing SYMMETRY that was hi end, around 1980.
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Buying cables ask you submission to authority.
You go, by appointment, in this special audiophile shop and ask this well known specialist to design your equipment. When the amplifier and the enclosures are determined, you will to take a modest attitude, asking "And what do you propose as best cables for this system ?". Sure this guy will answer with some kind of respect: "Ah, i can see that you are a knowledgeable audiophile..."
No way! You are not that kind of naive people. You are a clever and intelligent consumer. So, using your spreadsheet and your computer, you will compare 20 comparatives tests on 20 web sites. Then, once you had found the best cable for your price, not so easy when, on site 5, they note this cable as poor while it is described as fantastic on the site12, (need statistical calculations)...
Then you have to Goggle again to find the best price for it and wait 10days for it comes from China.
No doubt, now YOU have the best cable available. Time to make listen to it all your friends, and show how this cable sound dynamic, with warm low medium, brilliant and smooth trebles, those deep and tight basses and this unbelievable precise localization. And your friends will know you are a real expert.
That the way i buy my computers. It took 3 weeks of full time work . Now i have the latest four core, oversampled at 5 GHz, with a special kind of very fast 16 gigs memory pack, water cooled with a Gallium/Indium thermal Pad. And the last SSD along with a black diamond HD.
I can be proud of it performance.
Just, i don't understand why it takes two times to start the delay of my very old single core, and why it is so noisy.
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You are 100% right Bud look at the golf industry, Rory Mcilroy and Ricky Fowler both wear magnetic energy enhancing necklases. There are more BS tweaks than you can shake a stick at. They might be paid to do this but the BS is the same, funny as it seems, as the speaker wire nonsense.
Congratulations, my friend! Now you need quiet and fast cables. Also, you've got a new supercomputer that will run much more than your web browser: it will run a network of virtual computers that are parts of different botnets: if we used 80386 machines with 1 MB memory for full-blown internet servers in 1990-Th, can you imagine how many of simulators of such computers can run on your machine simultaneously without any sign of performance degradation? Just go on any website that shows advertising, and you have a chance to get all this virtual network to be installed, through Flash and Java, with the help of Javascript that runs on your computer for you...
You definitely need quiet and fast cables, my friend! 😉
It is a wonderful marketing idea Scott! How many necklaces can be made from a single speaker cable? 😀
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