Strawman argument.
I can (and have already -- guess what, it changes -nothing-) easily set up my tests so that they are the exact same situation as a "real setup", like sending the audio from a first device (like a DAC, or in my case also the DAC), to a second device (a preamp, or in my case the ADC), with all the associated details like separate power supplies, causing balancing currents to flow -- the latter, when it has any effect, is not cable sound and especially not intrinsic cable material sound, it's just Ohm's law at work.
Sorry, you do not have any arguments. Stop the thinking you were dealing with morons here.
How could you get someone to understand anything if his income depends on not understanding it?
The TT cartridge loading brings up the possibility of "well, that's the way we've always done it"
I've heard (an early) CD mastered by making it sound like the record - but with the wrong cartridge loading...
So why wouldnt an audiophile, with experience of cables making a difference on their TT setup, when CD players come along, just believe cables must make a difference on that entertainment playback device as well? I bet that's the genesis point,
Just because the mechanism driving voltage into it is completely incomparable... A coil of wire in a magnetic field, versus conduction through some solid state device in an op-amp output.
"Doesnt matter - gonna effect it just the same".
I've heard (an early) CD mastered by making it sound like the record - but with the wrong cartridge loading...
So why wouldnt an audiophile, with experience of cables making a difference on their TT setup, when CD players come along, just believe cables must make a difference on that entertainment playback device as well? I bet that's the genesis point,
Just because the mechanism driving voltage into it is completely incomparable... A coil of wire in a magnetic field, versus conduction through some solid state device in an op-amp output.
"Doesnt matter - gonna effect it just the same".
Just wanted to find the hair in the soup, however, I would argue that under conditions of high output impedance (Tube), parasitics may come to play a role.
I do not believe it is the explanation other than in very special cases.
As I said earlier, inserting a component that has absolutely no electrical significance will still deliver its sound signature to output, for example a very very small resistor in series with a line output. (Bybee)
Maybe the whole hi-fi chain up to the speaker terminals should be included, maybe all the way to the listener's ear.
A guy on YouTube has actually done this with silver vs copper, he switches in the middle of the audio file approx. At 2.47.
He claims the sound difference is far greater in reality, which fits with my own experience. The question is how much is lost by recording.
SW1X Audio Design Silver vs Copper Sound Test - YouTube
No it wont. Your saying it over and over and over dosnt make it true. ( is this the new norm after president pumpkin head?). And, other people claiming the earth is flat dosnt make it true. Prove your extraordinary claim first. Then we can discuss it.
....a lot! Once you hit record you loose all the magic, this is well known since recording exist( in particular for non engineer which don't know how to set up a mic and make a good gain staging before going to mp3 butchery).
Joke aside don't ever listen to something like Celemony's 'melodyne' in polyphonic mode because you'll be guru-tised by the magic at work! ( or for technically minded learn about FFT, additive synthesis and what digital process can achieve through science).
To be fair i've heard different sound from different cables in DBT but this is not magic, as already pointed this is LCR filtering at works.
If a component 'filter' and have an obvious 'signature' it is badly built/designed so change it for something else ( or keep it if this is your thing).
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Simple test which bypasses all and every arguement.
Find someone with aural synestesia, and play them their favourite audio track through whatever you wish to test. They will tell you instantly if there i something wrong.
Find someone with aural synestesia, and play them their favourite audio track through whatever you wish to test. They will tell you instantly if there i something wrong.
What is real hi-fi environment?
You don't consider tube gear to be in hi-fi category these days, do you?
Has that been proven by objective test or is that just a rumor?
Anyone can claim anything. His observation of difference most likely came from his side to side movement while listening. It wasn't a double blind test and no quick switching was applied but somehow you want to cite it as something to support your view on cable sound. I thought the explanations given on first couple pages of this thread would help but I guess they didn't. 🙁
Why not? I listen to the acoustic output so show us better solution with reference of fidelity in the acoustic output if you find tube gear to be lacking.
I mean the interface varies for hi-fi equipment despite the general practice of low output impedance and high input impedance
I do, some of the most credible equipment I have heard has been tube gear.
But as a technician I do not like the lack of precision, I see it as a paradox that measurable precision can mean so little to the experience of credibility in the sound.
It seems that the measurable errors can be quite large as long as they have the right structure.
Yes in single blind test and I see the observation that sound signature is independent of the electrical value of the component and its electrical impact on the circuit as important in the effort to find an explanation.
In a sense - you are right - and then you are still missing something. There are a treshold to what we can hear under certain conditions. It's rather complex but still not a mistery. If you make measurements - poorly - then you get a smoothed or low resolution picture of what is going on. By this you cant pin point why there is a difference between what you hear and what you read/see in the measurement.
Further.... you have to take several measurements under same controlled condition, to really be sure that you are not fooling yourself. What might look equal at on axis - might hide on another. It's the total output from a loudspeaker that matters in a given room and with a given measurement setup/method.
So you cant just claim that there is a difference without talking about - where and how. It's like saying - it's big - yes! - But compared to what?
It's like a 20 year old partly DIY 3 ton 4x4 with rough off-road tires - driving on a typical asfalt road - towing a 4 ton trailer. It has either aloy or steel rims on. Can you feel it... no. Is there a practical difference - yes. There is a price, corrosion, looks and our personal feelings about the experience/thought/memory of having either rims on the car. But my guess is - that you need a F1 car to really feel a difference - whether or not you use a given type of rims.
And tube amps.... they might be fun and nostalgic for some. But they introduce more problems then what they theoretically solve.
It's simply history.... practical and technical reasons for developing differenct speakers and amplifiers through the years, because of certain limited technical abilities in manufactoring - included speakers size, sensitivity, cross-over distortion - tubes to solid state, power consumption, stability - and advances in design. Try to but 3 valve-amps in a shoebox size active speaker.... not needed and really silly. It's all there in the books and on Wiki. No mystery here. It's like back 10-15 years... where people still lacked easy acces to measurements gear. There was a strong believe that metal drivers where always sounding bad. What many failed to realize, was that taming the breakup.... is pretty important before you judge the rest.... and all drivers breakup at some point.
if you think cable makes a difference. Then why? Do you have some kind of technical reason? If you have a point or suspicion. then put it forth and let us dig in with all forces and see if theres is even the slightest reason to worry about it.
If a consideral amount of people in a controlled double blind listening test, can hear a difference on cables or any other technical difference. Then we have to look for a better measuring technique - sure. But do you have such test results?
I participated in a test, where it was one guy changing cables - while everyone else left the room... blanket over all the cables when we came back.
Think it was pricey Mcintosh gear and Neeper Perfection One speakers.
Around 20 people lost it between lamp-cord and some fanzy cable. What really did the trick.... was moving the speakers afterwards 😀😉
There is one of your mistake that leads to your confusion. We listen to acoustic output. You need to measure the "errors" of the acoustic output, then you will begin to understand the difference that we hear.
One paper that point to this direction is www.audiopax.com - Whysingle-endedtubeamplifiers.pdf.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, known as the Sagan standard.
But we can start with the ordinary claims first. Which are: interconnect cables make any difference at all -- we can get back to "cable material sound" later once we have the premise.
Hence, @Thor2, over at ASR in the listening test I've posted, this is your chance to earn any basic credit.
KSTR Cable Test #02 (analog RCA loopback) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
But we can start with the ordinary claims first. Which are: interconnect cables make any difference at all -- we can get back to "cable material sound" later once we have the premise.
Hence, @Thor2, over at ASR in the listening test I've posted, this is your chance to earn any basic credit.
KSTR Cable Test #02 (analog RCA loopback) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
The term you are thinking of is "real word application" but it's not different from Ethan Winer's null test. Look at any main stream brand audio electronics on the market and you will see that output and input impedance numbers are within industry recommended range. In other words, it's not an issue.
Again, single blind test isn't double blind test and it doesn't provide evidence.
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