Well thor2,
I guess you don't like your world rocked very much. I'm not arrogant, quite the opposite. I did in fact attempt to help you figure out what was going on.
I'm coming from a position of knowledge and having had tried so many experiments over the decades and finding answers. My findings happen to agree with those who are experts in the field paid by major laboratories. So you want to disagree with both those and your contemporaries - okay. That's fine. It says a lot about how firmly you are married to your beliefs.
I'm over 60 years old now. I've been in this field my entire life and have to interact with both those in sales and other technical experts in both audio, and test and measurement. I'm good with both camps except with the flakes who are trying to debunk science. The world would be witness to massive failures if we switched to your point of view. Imagine the damage to findings in astrophysics and superconductivity!
Thor2, you are alone with this belief. You have zero actual proof against decades of intense scientific findings. Who would you believe? "Well, it could be true" doesn't cut it either.
I'm not arrogant, I just completely disagree with you and you don't like it. All I have done is state facts. Finally, the last fact ... you're wrong.
Go do some acceptably controlled tests and become famous. Then find your reason and your third property of matter. I'll be the first to congratulate you. Until then stop name calling and face reality.
-Chris
I guess you don't like your world rocked very much. I'm not arrogant, quite the opposite. I did in fact attempt to help you figure out what was going on.
I'm coming from a position of knowledge and having had tried so many experiments over the decades and finding answers. My findings happen to agree with those who are experts in the field paid by major laboratories. So you want to disagree with both those and your contemporaries - okay. That's fine. It says a lot about how firmly you are married to your beliefs.
I'm over 60 years old now. I've been in this field my entire life and have to interact with both those in sales and other technical experts in both audio, and test and measurement. I'm good with both camps except with the flakes who are trying to debunk science. The world would be witness to massive failures if we switched to your point of view. Imagine the damage to findings in astrophysics and superconductivity!
Thor2, you are alone with this belief. You have zero actual proof against decades of intense scientific findings. Who would you believe? "Well, it could be true" doesn't cut it either.
I'm not arrogant, I just completely disagree with you and you don't like it. All I have done is state facts. Finally, the last fact ... you're wrong.
Go do some acceptably controlled tests and become famous. Then find your reason and your third property of matter. I'll be the first to congratulate you. Until then stop name calling and face reality.
-Chris
Are you familiar with sociology principle of 'anomie'? Emile Durkheim discovered and made it famous.
From this it was observed that a given goup will try to appropriate to them the sign of wealth from the group up (next or notso) in the social hierarchy.
You know owning a Bmw or a Mercedes, wearing Gucci, Chanel or Louis Vuitton clothes when you are unemployed...
Human beings are hilarious to study as groups! How dumb we are...
What annoys me is your arrogance and better knowing attitude that considers me someone who needs help.
It is simply an insult, and I am definitely not alone with the attitude that audio signatures exist on components and cables
I did not say you are wrong, but instead i put the cards on the table by referring and accepting the electrical argument that Ethan Winer puts forward in his Null test even if it goes against what I mean
I do not agree with the conclusion that there is no sound difference on cables, and other passive components.
It is with good reasons that include a blind test.
I do just as much out of measurable precision as you, I probably do more.
Increased precision increases the ability to hear / register audio signature on components and cables.
In short I am sure I do at least as much to optimize measurable precision as you.
The extra I do is choose my components based on listening tests to optimize to most lifelike sound. The thread is not about whether it is possible or not, it is about how.
Unlike other electronics, hifi consists of both precision and timbre/tone imaging soundstage etc.
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Then why could you not hear the difference between an original file and the same file through a $ 7 capacitor and the same file through a $ 2000 capacitor.
One of your bad excuses that the audio file had turned gray in the audio because it was converted to wav 1411 kbs - 16 bit - 48 khz.
But it does not work as it is CD quality and even a little over.
Should your bad excuse hold water, then everything from the CD player came and back in time from there will not be able to be used for anything.
One of your bad excuses that the audio file had turned gray in the audio because it was converted to wav 1411 kbs - 16 bit - 48 khz.
But it does not work as it is CD quality and even a little over.
Should your bad excuse hold water, then everything from the CD player came and back in time from there will not be able to be used for anything.
Maybe because I have not participated, who will participate in a test with this seriousness:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Standard computer, DAC and ADC to 10-15 $ from China, a setup put together with magnetic crocodile clip, etc. not me!!!.
I have tried to explain both in English and Danish what may be the reason why there are no sound differences, which simply does not fit with the real world. but you obviously do not understand it.
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Hi thor2,
Well, I think I have more precision in measurements than you have access to. Not only that but I have been involved in listening experiments (many) with people who can hear power cords. They can't hear differences between wire type (hookup wire type, not coax).
I'm sorry, but I have met many more people over my life, and have been involved in listening experiments since the 1970's with setups that were done properly. That's why I suggested you may be hearing connection interface issues. If not, you are victim to bias expectation or imagination.
Your experiments have been investigated several times over the decades with the same results every time. The observations supported a guess outcome with the more experienced participants admitting they could not hear a difference.
The difference in impedance is in milliohms between copper and silver over normal lengths. The test circuit impedance is over 100 K ohms. There are no other conductors close to form any type of capacitance, and that would be a dielectric effect anyway. So in short, without magic, there is no detectable difference between the two different conductors. So, knowing this is the case, and having at least normal intellect, how can you go out on a limb and suggest you can hear a difference? Heck, do the math at an impedance of 50K ohms and tell me you can hear it! Even if there was a difference, it would be lost in the background noise in the room. All your experience and expertise will support this unless you are claiming there is a third property of matter - in which case you are nuts.
The reality of the situation alone does not support your claims. I'm sorry, but you are pushing this to silly levels. Come on, give it a re-think. Or, are you so invested in these claims that you can't back out? This may be more the case given reports of your earlier exploits on other sites. So you are actually telling me you know more and can hear better than literally thousands of members across all the sites you have visited? If so, you have far too much confidence for yourself in your young life. Open your eyes man, do the math if nothing else. Your claims just do not make any sense at all.
-Chris
Well, I think I have more precision in measurements than you have access to. Not only that but I have been involved in listening experiments (many) with people who can hear power cords. They can't hear differences between wire type (hookup wire type, not coax).
I'm sorry, but I have met many more people over my life, and have been involved in listening experiments since the 1970's with setups that were done properly. That's why I suggested you may be hearing connection interface issues. If not, you are victim to bias expectation or imagination.
Your experiments have been investigated several times over the decades with the same results every time. The observations supported a guess outcome with the more experienced participants admitting they could not hear a difference.
The difference in impedance is in milliohms between copper and silver over normal lengths. The test circuit impedance is over 100 K ohms. There are no other conductors close to form any type of capacitance, and that would be a dielectric effect anyway. So in short, without magic, there is no detectable difference between the two different conductors. So, knowing this is the case, and having at least normal intellect, how can you go out on a limb and suggest you can hear a difference? Heck, do the math at an impedance of 50K ohms and tell me you can hear it! Even if there was a difference, it would be lost in the background noise in the room. All your experience and expertise will support this unless you are claiming there is a third property of matter - in which case you are nuts.
The reality of the situation alone does not support your claims. I'm sorry, but you are pushing this to silly levels. Come on, give it a re-think. Or, are you so invested in these claims that you can't back out? This may be more the case given reports of your earlier exploits on other sites. So you are actually telling me you know more and can hear better than literally thousands of members across all the sites you have visited? If so, you have far too much confidence for yourself in your young life. Open your eyes man, do the math if nothing else. Your claims just do not make any sense at all.
-Chris
And you could NOT hear the difference between the original file and the same file that had been through the electronic in the image.
It tells everything.
You actually could not even see the difference in Audacity and wrote that you well understood that people could not hear the difference.
Because there is no one even though it is very cheap electronics.
And the cheap electronics were quite intentional to emphasize how small a difference there is, if any.
You simply imagine too much because you know what has changed. If you did not know it (as in the picture) you would not be able to hear it as you claim.
People are unbelievably easy to cheat and they cheat themselves all the time when it comes to hifi. The only one who has not really understood it yet and will not understand it is you
It tells everything.
You actually could not even see the difference in Audacity and wrote that you well understood that people could not hear the difference.
Because there is no one even though it is very cheap electronics.
And the cheap electronics were quite intentional to emphasize how small a difference there is, if any.
You simply imagine too much because you know what has changed. If you did not know it (as in the picture) you would not be able to hear it as you claim.
People are unbelievably easy to cheat and they cheat themselves all the time when it comes to hifi. The only one who has not really understood it yet and will not understand it is you
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If you choose to post on this forum, learn how to use the quote system properly.Anatech...... I for one believe you...... totally
To save you some time, I think you´re "barking up the wrong tree" here.
Those tests shown earlier, that Thor2 of course didn´t participate in, since he couldn´t hear the difference, those same files he spent days investigating/analyzing with the best measuring equipment, he has available:
Audacity on an old laptop. When he couldn´t figure them out, he started accusing the creator of cheating, lying and worse, which of course got him banned from the last danish forum, he was allowed to use. Just to make this short: You can´t reach him........ EVER.
Exactly. Well put.
As I said........
You can´t reach him.
I even tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, suggesting that maybe.... and just maybe, the percieved sound difference could be a reaction from the gear behaving differently (remember non-global feedback amp´s without zobel, that started to oscillate when connected with high capacity braided cables between the amp and speaker)?????
This suggestion was totally ignored, perhaps because of his lack on understanding electronics properly.
He has decided: there is sound difference in resistors depending on material. A DCA (Duelund) capacitor in the price range of 2000$ and upwards is far superior sound quality wise to anything else. Silver or DCA tinned cables, wrapped in cotton and silk and dipped in oil and baked in the oven are price no object the best that can be obtained.
His only reason here on diyAudio is to to get a couple of fools to buy into his beliefs, thus having a couple of disciples, so he can claim, that "millions" share his beliefs
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Hi Boydk,
Thanks, yes. thor2 seems to be totally invested in these ideas and there is therefore no reaching him. That's what my last few posts were really about. You picked up on that.
His type isn't unheard of around here. Like you, I tried to reach him, but it is very clear he's a goner.
-Chris
Thanks, yes. thor2 seems to be totally invested in these ideas and there is therefore no reaching him. That's what my last few posts were really about. You picked up on that.
His type isn't unheard of around here. Like you, I tried to reach him, but it is very clear he's a goner.
-Chris
"...metaphysical, I prefer the graspable, the provable." Spock, Star Trek, 1966
Humanity never would have traveled space if those in charge thought, "That's about right" Numbers people, that's where the truth lies, not our flawed perceptions, not our flawed senses, cold impassionate mathematics.
Our flaws served us fine for awhile within our evolutionary journey, but for the great discoveries it required more, reason, black & white thought, yes or no.
As it stands, creating devices according to reason & logic approaches that inevitable bridge (chasm) that separates our devices from our very human "love" of music & sound.
Create devices as you will to the best of science & reason, then let go, & let the other half take over & let the chips fall where they may.
----------------------------------------------------------------------Rick.....
Humanity never would have traveled space if those in charge thought, "That's about right" Numbers people, that's where the truth lies, not our flawed perceptions, not our flawed senses, cold impassionate mathematics.
Our flaws served us fine for awhile within our evolutionary journey, but for the great discoveries it required more, reason, black & white thought, yes or no.
As it stands, creating devices according to reason & logic approaches that inevitable bridge (chasm) that separates our devices from our very human "love" of music & sound.
Create devices as you will to the best of science & reason, then let go, & let the other half take over & let the chips fall where they may.
----------------------------------------------------------------------Rick.....
Hi Rick,
I design from the love of music and just to explore different configurations. That's where the heart is. However, measurements allow me to get the most out of these designs. I make certain I listen to things as well. The two go hand in hand.
I think I am doing it right, others may disagree.
-Chris
I design from the love of music and just to explore different configurations. That's where the heart is. However, measurements allow me to get the most out of these designs. I make certain I listen to things as well. The two go hand in hand.
I think I am doing it right, others may disagree.
-Chris
Anatech...... I for one believe you...... totally
To save you some time, I think you´re "barking up the wrong tree" here.
Those tests shown earlier, that Thor2 of course didn´t participate in, since he couldn´t hear the difference, those same files he spent days investigating/analyzing with the best measuring equipment, he has available:
Audacity on an old laptop. When he couldn´t figure them out, he started accusing the creator of cheating, lying and worse, which of course got him banned from the last danish forum, he was allowed to use. Just to make this short: You can´t reach him........ EVER.
Exactly. Well put.
As I said........
You can´t reach him.
I even tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, suggesting that maybe.... and just maybe, the percieved sound difference could be a reaction from the gear behaving differently (remember non-global feedback amp´s without zobel, that started to oscillate when connected with high capacity braided cables between the amp and speaker)?????
This suggestion was totally ignored, perhaps because of his lack on understanding electronics properly.
He has decided: there is sound difference in resistors depending on material. A DCA (Duelund) capacitor in the price range of 2000$ and upwards is far superior sound quality wise to anything else. Silver or DCA tinned cables, wrapped in cotton and silk and dipped in oil and baked in the oven are price no object the best that can be obtained.
His only reason here on diyAudio is to to get a couple of fools to buy into his beliefs, thus having a couple of disciples, so he can claim, that "millions" share his beliefs
In other words, he is priming the area for his upcoming audio cable business.Hi Boydk,
Thanks, yes. thor2 seems to be totally invested in these ideas and there is therefore no reaching him. That's what my last few posts were really about. You picked up on that.
His type isn't unheard of around here. Like you, I tried to reach him, but it is very clear he's a goner.
-Chris
In other words, he is priming the area for his upcoming audio cable business.
Not likely.
Here in Denmark nobody is interested in his babble.
On the fora´s, of which he´s been banned from all of them,
he starts to trash people with very unflattery name calling,
if they don´t buy into his ********.
That kind of "marketing" usually get´s you nowhere
Maybe that's why he came back here and revived this thread.
My guess is that he is new to this market, a.k.a. rookie.That kind of "marketing" usually get´s you nowhere
"My guess is that he is new to this market, a.k.a. rookie."
But unfortunately you´re wrong.
He used to be a repair technician and has retired, this telling me, that he´s around
my age or a little younger (60++).
Means.... he´s had years and years and years to educate himself (what we call life experience), but nothing seems to have worked.
Just ended up with his hardcore conviction, that he´s the worlds leading "enthusiast",
and see´s it as his life´s goal to "educate" everyone else.
But unfortunately you´re wrong.
He used to be a repair technician and has retired, this telling me, that he´s around
my age or a little younger (60++).
Means.... he´s had years and years and years to educate himself (what we call life experience), but nothing seems to have worked.
Just ended up with his hardcore conviction, that he´s the worlds leading "enthusiast",
and see´s it as his life´s goal to "educate" everyone else.
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