I have some difficulty with this without further investigation. Instruments produce a wide array of harmonics, yet can be localized with pinpoint precision.
If the harmonics were not to be in phase with each other, that would be different. Out of phase signals sound wide.
As you should know, it depends on what you're interested in.
If someone states it is impossible to "hear" a difference/an effect, then it is already very relevant if one human exist who can.
If you are interested in population parameter estimation, 2 and 3 are relevant, while in a very special interest section of a special interest forum these estimations could often be very misleading.
And we should keep in mind, that confidence levels are statistical properties of the procedures and do not give probabilities, that the estimation is correct.
Wrt experiments in the audio field, sample sizes are usually way to small to allow conclusions for the population.
I used to think you intentionally misunderstand things in order to attack people. Watching your struggles with ES9038PRO made me realize you are sometimes easily confused, like in your response above.
To clarify then:
1) Clipping does create IMD, but clipping has a particular perceptual sound to me. That sound is different from the sound of the distortion I was describing in the post about ESS harmonic compensation register distortion.
2) I agree and already know that HD and IMD are results of the exact same nonlinearity in a time-invariant nonlinear system, the only difference is the input stimulus. The reason I explained the way I did was to make clear that IMD is usually at a significantly higher measured level as verses measured HD. Since we usually measure HD, the numbers look better than they really are when it comes to audible distortion when playing music.
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As it is a non sequitur from Markw4's post, it seems as if you're trying to put words in his mouth .....
Please quote my "struggles". Not that I really care, but you just triggered a personal attack, much worse than those you are usually whining about. In my world (which is designing and building stuff, not playing with pre-made stuff and sharing personal impressions) this is called "experimenting".
Second paragraph: what the h do you mean by "input stimulus"?
At the risk of being accused of nitpicking (somebody else's specialty) let's take this step by step.
I agree that a certain nonlinearity creates mathematically different amounts of HD and IMD distortions.
1. Amplifier is not clipping. The subjective tester is hearing some distortions coming from his DUT, the effect of some nonlinearities. Are you telling me it is possible, by hearing only, to identify if these distortions are HD or IMD?
2. Amplifier is clipping. This is by any metric a massive nonlinearity, creating both HD and IMD. Are you telling me it is possible to estimate, by hearing only, the amounts of HD and IMD?
It is not, until that person is found. Until, "such a person does not exist" is true. Even then, I doubt one person could change anything other than at theoretical level.
Even in mathematics, we are safely using conjectures we are not sure are true, until someone proves them wrong.
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I guess this is only related with H2 (and not other harmonics), in a situation where H2 is too dominant.
Low distortion amplifiers can produce pinpoint precision of instrument placement. But often with tube amps the placement is too high especially with vocals, which is strange because we know that it is impossible the singer is sitting on the cupboard or hanging on the ceiling.
Not only with power amps, I have experienced a comparison of several CD players. There were 2 players with tube stage: Consonance Droplets and Ah Tjoeb. The Consonance Droplet was fine but when the Ah Tjoeb was played, the vocal suddenly rise to the ceiling and I knew right away it has a tube inside.
I think its just the effect of "expanded soundstage". Just like headphones, everybody just feel okay with the soundstage (I don't). May be you have ever heard the term "on your lap"?
Like I said, the Consonance Droplets is using tube stage too but it's okay, but it is much more expensive than the Ah Tjoeb. May be your tube CD player is good too (I can't believe you have tube stage with H2 dominant
). My CD player is also using a tube stage after the I/V and it was a miracle that at last I found out the recipe and could accept a tube line stage.
Never have one which elevate a vocal image to the ceiling. I had a PSE EL84 and a 2 way that put the guitar to the floor, IIRC had to be corrected by weird speaker positioning.
Not the ceiling above listeners but ceiling above speakers. Yes, can be above drum too. I observed strange placement only with tubes.
Have you heard the Ah Tjoeb? I think the blind test was conducted when you were in Surabaya.
Zuccarelli Holophonics Original "Matchbox Shake" recorded in 1984 (Amazing 3D Sound) - YouTube
Try it preferably with headphones.
Try it preferably with headphones.
In terms of the imaging discussion, not sure if the old stalward the LEDR test has been mentioned. Always good for a laugh.
Online LEDR™ Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test
Online LEDR™ Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test
Why for a laugh? Because of outcome in most place?
About imaging if you want to really know how your loudspeaker behave one simple test is to play them outdoor in an open place ( no walls nearby). It is enlightning about what your room do.
I moved home 2 years ago and i now have a close to perfect room for my preference/taste ( dimension wise -6,5m x 5,7m- and with sloped ceiling/cathedral at 3,8m and 30* angle).
When evaluating the room ( and without treatment to make an RFZ) i was stunned by some tracks which imaged well outside the loudspeakers on some reference tracks (the one which is the most outstanding is on Peter Gabriel's "the last passion of Christ" - "the feelings begins" where the low drums hits are located about 1m outside the loudspeakers, eyes closed try to point the source with an arm then when sure of position open eyes and see where you point).
Tryed same things outside, image is wide but constrained to loudspeakers position.
If i only paid attention to my feelings i would have thought my loudspeakers, amp, dac or whatever had sureal capability about imaging. The fact i live with my main for nearby 25y in different rooms i know something was at play at acoustic level ( and because i'm obsessed by acoustic!)...
Curiously enough the LEDR test is good (i've got the 'rainbow effect' clearly defined thanks to the sloped ceiling which redirect ceilling Early Reflections ( the most objectionable) outside the sweet spot i suspect) so the effect comes from low mid freq and the lateral ER.
The effect is very pleasing ( even more with my coax Tannoy as they have a very stable image rendering which make the effect even more fun on some tracks which give the feeling some sounds can 'jump at you') but in no way homothetic to the recorded signal.
This kind of things can completly ruin the results of some test you could perform if you are not aware of it ( which most people aren't).
It's one of the reason i leave this kind of things to Ph D and controlled conditions rooms. It is too much misleading to perform without taking all parameters at play ( and one of the reason you can't really have 'acoustic output' measured accurately - and the reason loudspeakers are still measured in anechoic rooms).
But by going outside you have an idea of what is at play. Not really scientific but close enough ( to me) to make educated descision. Same thing that with measurement of technical data, it gives clues then you have to track the source or reason.
I'm with Anatech about living with gear for medium/long period of time for evaluation of gear. Or double ABX ( unsighted) but... difficult to perform.
About imaging if you want to really know how your loudspeaker behave one simple test is to play them outdoor in an open place ( no walls nearby). It is enlightning about what your room do.
I moved home 2 years ago and i now have a close to perfect room for my preference/taste ( dimension wise -6,5m x 5,7m- and with sloped ceiling/cathedral at 3,8m and 30* angle).
When evaluating the room ( and without treatment to make an RFZ) i was stunned by some tracks which imaged well outside the loudspeakers on some reference tracks (the one which is the most outstanding is on Peter Gabriel's "the last passion of Christ" - "the feelings begins" where the low drums hits are located about 1m outside the loudspeakers, eyes closed try to point the source with an arm then when sure of position open eyes and see where you point).
Tryed same things outside, image is wide but constrained to loudspeakers position.
If i only paid attention to my feelings i would have thought my loudspeakers, amp, dac or whatever had sureal capability about imaging. The fact i live with my main for nearby 25y in different rooms i know something was at play at acoustic level ( and because i'm obsessed by acoustic!)...
Curiously enough the LEDR test is good (i've got the 'rainbow effect' clearly defined thanks to the sloped ceiling which redirect ceilling Early Reflections ( the most objectionable) outside the sweet spot i suspect) so the effect comes from low mid freq and the lateral ER.
The effect is very pleasing ( even more with my coax Tannoy as they have a very stable image rendering which make the effect even more fun on some tracks which give the feeling some sounds can 'jump at you') but in no way homothetic to the recorded signal.
This kind of things can completly ruin the results of some test you could perform if you are not aware of it ( which most people aren't).
It's one of the reason i leave this kind of things to Ph D and controlled conditions rooms. It is too much misleading to perform without taking all parameters at play ( and one of the reason you can't really have 'acoustic output' measured accurately - and the reason loudspeakers are still measured in anechoic rooms).
But by going outside you have an idea of what is at play. Not really scientific but close enough ( to me) to make educated descision. Same thing that with measurement of technical data, it gives clues then you have to track the source or reason.
I'm with Anatech about living with gear for medium/long period of time for evaluation of gear. Or double ABX ( unsighted) but... difficult to perform.
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