D,
My good friend Vacu is having a bad day , he will soon remember we are comrades , fighting the same fight ...
Me on the other hand had a great day, Real madrid won , The Heat won , good food , wine and good analog, i did play digital music from jazzradio.com , just enuff to keep Vacu happy.
Yep....
My good friend Vacu is having a bad day , he will soon remember we are comrades , fighting the same fight ...
Me on the other hand had a great day, Real madrid won , The Heat won , good food , wine and good analog, i did play digital music from jazzradio.com , just enuff to keep Vacu happy.
Yep....
I strongly doubt 16 bit digital is something I could detect if an analogue signal was processed via it in a blind listening test . So that is proof ? No it isn't .
One day for fun I set up a Nakamichi Dragon tape deck . The reference tape for FE was TDK D . A low cost tape with first class quality control . Having set up the tape deck properly I found even Dolby to be OK . I AB compared and found no real difference . Went to bed and all excited then replayed my tapes the next morning . They were dreadful . I think the AB comparison was implanting the better sound in my head . The reason the AB does that is that as long as tonality and level is the same the memory can carry the illusion along .
I will really go out on a limb now . If you are in a relationship for a long time the half remembered things that happened in the beginning are almost like a false memory ( I stress almost ) . From this one gets the serial monogamist who must have new relationships . The very best hi fi is like the perfect relationship where one never goes to the boring or strident phase . AB testing is like speed dating and not always as accurate as people make out .
I often go to live music and think it is hi fi . It is hard to stop the process . Mostly the human actions are more apparent and the fidelity is less good . This is no mystery . A recording engineer might as well optimize what does work well . Also just seeing people makes it more of a real experience . Oddly the sound is often 1950's . Might be worth asking if sounding like the 1950's , was the sound of the 1950's was more real ? I can only say classical as with amplified music there is no reference to draw upon . String Quartets and folk music about the best we can do for accuracy in a living room . Bob Stewart told me that one guitar and one voice is the limit of High Fidelity .
Benny Goodman is said to have preferred one microphone . This was to the extent he had a wooden box for the soloist to climb so as to sing . Listening to his music I would say it isn't at all bad . The trick was not to make too much noise climbing up or to stumble . Isn't it interesting he should feel this so strongly ? One could say he was trying to optimize his earning power via sound quality . You would be surprised how often this was true . The very best recording engineers get lo fi and hi fi to work equally as when the Beatles . It is the most basic hi fi traits that carry it . The early relationship bit .
One day for fun I set up a Nakamichi Dragon tape deck . The reference tape for FE was TDK D . A low cost tape with first class quality control . Having set up the tape deck properly I found even Dolby to be OK . I AB compared and found no real difference . Went to bed and all excited then replayed my tapes the next morning . They were dreadful . I think the AB comparison was implanting the better sound in my head . The reason the AB does that is that as long as tonality and level is the same the memory can carry the illusion along .
I will really go out on a limb now . If you are in a relationship for a long time the half remembered things that happened in the beginning are almost like a false memory ( I stress almost ) . From this one gets the serial monogamist who must have new relationships . The very best hi fi is like the perfect relationship where one never goes to the boring or strident phase . AB testing is like speed dating and not always as accurate as people make out .
I often go to live music and think it is hi fi . It is hard to stop the process . Mostly the human actions are more apparent and the fidelity is less good . This is no mystery . A recording engineer might as well optimize what does work well . Also just seeing people makes it more of a real experience . Oddly the sound is often 1950's . Might be worth asking if sounding like the 1950's , was the sound of the 1950's was more real ? I can only say classical as with amplified music there is no reference to draw upon . String Quartets and folk music about the best we can do for accuracy in a living room . Bob Stewart told me that one guitar and one voice is the limit of High Fidelity .
Benny Goodman is said to have preferred one microphone . This was to the extent he had a wooden box for the soloist to climb so as to sing . Listening to his music I would say it isn't at all bad . The trick was not to make too much noise climbing up or to stumble . Isn't it interesting he should feel this so strongly ? One could say he was trying to optimize his earning power via sound quality . You would be surprised how often this was true . The very best recording engineers get lo fi and hi fi to work equally as when the Beatles . It is the most basic hi fi traits that carry it . The early relationship bit .
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All this tells me is that when you gents sit down to listen to music, you are in fact listening to the way it was recorded.
No problem, it's just that when I sit down to listen to music, I try to lsten to the musical intent of the artist rather than to technological flaws which are almost certainly there. As long as it doesn't bother the musical message too much, who cares?
No problem, it's just that when I sit down to listen to music, I try to lsten to the musical intent of the artist rather than to technological flaws which are almost certainly there. As long as it doesn't bother the musical message too much, who cares?
Perhaps so, but at the time they were new and hot, all I wanted from them were the songs, it was like 8 or 9 years later that I got my first Hi Fi system together.
In 1968, the mono TV sound of the "Top Of The Pops" was just fine.
Thanks DVV for your kind and mittigating words, much appreciated.
Btw, my nick comes from the desire to go against the notion of horror vacuii, nothing to do with audio. Tubes are nice because they glow in the dark, but for amplification I use mostly class D in combination with active xovers. Class D not because it sounds better, but because it can be just as good as the other technologies and is much more practical.
Btw, my nick comes from the desire to go against the notion of horror vacuii, nothing to do with audio. Tubes are nice because they glow in the dark, but for amplification I use mostly class D in combination with active xovers. Class D not because it sounds better, but because it can be just as good as the other technologies and is much more practical.
Not sure what Dear Vacu wanted to prove with the Mayer /Moran paper, am I to now change my opinion..? Listening habits , eating, drinking Habits..
You see D, the science say no difference so if you hear something its disney
Dear Vacu ,
Have you played with your downloads , ever tried up sample or down sample , notice anything ..
Well,
"Now, it is very difficult to use negative results to prove the inaudibility of any given phenomenon or process. There is always the remote possibility that a different sys- tem or more finely attuned pair of ears would reveal a difference. But we have gathered enough data, using suf- ficiently varied and capable systems and listeners, to state that the burden of proof has now shifted. Further claims that careful 16/44.1 encoding audibly degrades high- resolution signals must be supported by properly con- trolled double-blind tests."
Audio is a funny device , sorry as you say Art , you are listening to an active class-d setup , quite possibly one of the best sounds in the world , common affliction by those in the art , can others be better than mine , of course not i have science on my side , why this is art ..
You see D, the science say no difference so if you hear something its disney
Dear Vacu ,
Have you played with your downloads , ever tried up sample or down sample , notice anything ..
Well,
"Now, it is very difficult to use negative results to prove the inaudibility of any given phenomenon or process. There is always the remote possibility that a different sys- tem or more finely attuned pair of ears would reveal a difference. But we have gathered enough data, using suf- ficiently varied and capable systems and listeners, to state that the burden of proof has now shifted. Further claims that careful 16/44.1 encoding audibly degrades high- resolution signals must be supported by properly con- trolled double-blind tests."
Audio is a funny device , sorry as you say Art , you are listening to an active class-d setup , quite possibly one of the best sounds in the world , common affliction by those in the art , can others be better than mine , of course not i have science on my side , why this is art ..
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Not at all, I meant each and every word I wrote.
Well, perhaps I am a bit biased. It so happenes that I have had much contact with people from Holland, mostly in conjunction with my association with Philips, so obviously very professional people. Plus others.
Whether working for Philips, which big as it may be is still much smaller than Holland, or not, the one thing they have in common is not just knowledge, but a certain dedication I have not seen elsewhere anywhere to that extent on a general basis. This goes a loooooong way in making discussions very lively and very interesting.
And there are the little things. Years ago, while we still needed visas to travel to the EU, I can vouch for the fact that the Dutch embassy was the best organized and functional one of them all (I had to visit). Things just work like clockwork, everyone is polite, and you get your job done in a very short time. This is to let you know your tax euros are being spent wisely and effectively.
And I did like the general street atmosphere of Amsterdam, all three times I've been there. Relaxed, easy but with purpose, nobody is running, but nobody is wasting their time either.
So yes, perhaps I am a little biased, but then you could say the same of my general attitude towards the Brits, not to even mention the Yanks, given that I grew up with US Air Force kids, whose dads were posted in Ankara, Turkey, for 3 years. I also liked the Danes and the Germans I have known and do know, not to even mention the Greeks, who are (cultural) family.
In the end, it's all so simple, all it takes is some patience and basic human respect to find many wonderful people all around you. I suppose I was influenced by the fact that my late father worked for the UN (UNESCO and later UNIDO), so I am at home with a very mixed bag of people from all over, and I obviously do love that. Haven't met a person yet from whom I could not learn something useful.
Sorry for the ramble, but on occasion it's good to remember who we are.
...
Audio is a funny device , sorry as you say Art , you are listening to an active class-d setup , quite possibly one of the best sounds in the world , common affliction by those in the art , can others be better than mine , of course not i have science on my side , why this is art ..
(Bolded by DVV)
THIS is where I fail the test dismally, equivalent to a dim witted dodo.
Believe me or not, but this thought has NEVER entered my mind. 44 years ago, I thought this one out.
Someone will have a better system than I do by default. I live in a poor country, where my opportunities to legally earn money are very limited. Even so, I did rather well for the cicumstances I am subjected to, but that did not make me competitive with most Westeners.
Therefore, even thinking about it on a one-to-one basis is ridiculois, even stupid. Like taking a nail clipper to a gun fight.
My only chance is to try to put together a system with as much synergy as I possibly can. It's the one thing I CAN do, so that's what I did. Up to a point, when I said to myself - enough.
The only thing that REALLY concerns me 100% is whether I find the sound I am hearing to be pleasant and to my taste. I recognize the fact that in audio, there are no absolutes, it's all very personal.
I have now come to the point where I have achieved this goal more than once, and I own all the variations. Sio I can mix and match as the feeling takes me, becaue while good, they are of course not all the same. Sometimes, I put in Amp A because of those subtle differences from Amp B, which I cosider to be just that little bit better.
Prior to my recent purchase of the NAD CD player, in December 2012, my last previous purchase was in 2002, when I got my speakers (not counting the uin between purchases of some dearly beloved vintage stuff at funny money prices).
In the meanwhile, my money went to Amazon.com, from whom I buy all my CDs, either the US or the UK branch. And THAT makes me happy.
Found some Interesting stuff here D ,
frequency response measurements performed on some 1/4" studio recorders (two track DIN or NAB head layout) after being refurbished and running at 15 IPS with CCIR eq and 320nWb/m flux with SM900 or GP9 tape:
Studer A812
http://i57.tinypic.com/2mwhw90.jpg
Otari MTR15 (DIN format). The faint curve, with low end rolloff, showing 30 IPS speed.
http://i57.tinypic.com/fegb5s.jpg
Nagra T
http://i60.tinypic.com/n5l9n9.jpg
Lyrec PTR-1 (Frida)
http://i60.tinypic.com/288ow0w.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/72ak5c.jpg
I did never did get my Teac to better my other sources , ( cap /psu upgrades and alignment) with good copies of 15ips tapes the sound was pretty 'good' , as good as , unfortunately there's still enuff flaws to not say better .
I have heard much better from others who have made the investment to get "better" really awesome if you have the tapes ....
frequency response measurements performed on some 1/4" studio recorders (two track DIN or NAB head layout) after being refurbished and running at 15 IPS with CCIR eq and 320nWb/m flux with SM900 or GP9 tape:
Studer A812
http://i57.tinypic.com/2mwhw90.jpg
Otari MTR15 (DIN format). The faint curve, with low end rolloff, showing 30 IPS speed.
http://i57.tinypic.com/fegb5s.jpg
Nagra T
http://i60.tinypic.com/n5l9n9.jpg
Lyrec PTR-1 (Frida)
http://i60.tinypic.com/288ow0w.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/72ak5c.jpg
I did never did get my Teac to better my other sources , ( cap /psu upgrades and alignment) with good copies of 15ips tapes the sound was pretty 'good' , as good as , unfortunately there's still enuff flaws to not say better .
I have heard much better from others who have made the investment to get "better" really awesome if you have the tapes ....
From what you've supplied, it seems clear Studer did best.
WAY back, in 1981, just after I bought my Philips N4520, I ran its FR at 19 cm/s (7.5 ips) in Radio Belgrade's test and maintenance labs, they had Bruel & Kjaer instruments. To cut a long story short, Maxedd UD XLII gave me the best overall results, delivering 20-22,000 Hz +/- 2 dB at 0 dB VU, just 0.5 dB worse than the factory specs. This is for DIN P/B specs, only the 38 cm/s (15 ips) speed was switchable between DIN and NAB P/P.
The above high spped returned an FR of 25-25,000 Hz +/- 2 dB, which was an outstanding result for what was after all still a home deck, at best semi-pro.
That said, I need to point out that the FR linearity is only one of many factors determining the sound quality, important to be sure, but not alone. All in all, I will say two things:
1. For open reel, Japan never caught up with Europe, with very few exceptions (e.g. Sony 765), and
2. European manufacturers never caught up with Japan in terms of marketing, Europe could make it, but wa bad at selling it.
WAY back, in 1981, just after I bought my Philips N4520, I ran its FR at 19 cm/s (7.5 ips) in Radio Belgrade's test and maintenance labs, they had Bruel & Kjaer instruments. To cut a long story short, Maxedd UD XLII gave me the best overall results, delivering 20-22,000 Hz +/- 2 dB at 0 dB VU, just 0.5 dB worse than the factory specs. This is for DIN P/B specs, only the 38 cm/s (15 ips) speed was switchable between DIN and NAB P/P.
The above high spped returned an FR of 25-25,000 Hz +/- 2 dB, which was an outstanding result for what was after all still a home deck, at best semi-pro.
That said, I need to point out that the FR linearity is only one of many factors determining the sound quality, important to be sure, but not alone. All in all, I will say two things:
1. For open reel, Japan never caught up with Europe, with very few exceptions (e.g. Sony 765), and
2. European manufacturers never caught up with Japan in terms of marketing, Europe could make it, but wa bad at selling it.
One of my benchmark, test tool, CDs is the first Rolling Stones album, just the bare bones original release one. This can sound atrocious, it desperately needs everything in the replay chain to be totally on its mark, to work its musical magic - and hence makes it an extremely powerful diagnostic tool; just a slight fall off in reproduction quality somewhere, and the sound of a particular instrument becomes a mess, subjectively.
Learning to use source material like this to discriminate between qualities in the playback is an extremely useful skill to acquire - you develop much intuitive understanding of what audio systems do wrong, and the ability to distinguish meaningful improvements.
Edit: Regarding the Beatles, I don't see any problems with the material, I even have a pre-Beatles, Beatles CD, done with Tony Sheridan, a couple of the tracks on that are extremely well recorded. My favourite is Revolution, the sound of the distortion guitar absolutely explodes out off the speakers, if unaware you jump a coupla feet in the air ...
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More tape stuff ...
Originally Posted by tomelex
Nice work HDVS! Do you have THD and IMD results as well?
Unfortunately I didn't take pictures of all the measured parameters. The recorders are gone now, together with their technical sheets.
Anyway I've those pictures related to a sweep of the THD+N (way higher than THD alone) of a Studer A812 MkII taken without and with HX Pro in the recording chain:
http://oi54.tinypic.com/15zjq6d.jpg
http://oi53.tinypic.com/nxl151.jpg
Here you find an FFT with a modulation signal of 10 KHz at 0 dB and the square wave response at 10 KHz:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/102v3w8.jpg
And this is x-talk + phase response of the same recorder:
http://oi59.tinypic.com/jgpeo3.jpg
This is of the recently refurbished Studer A80 1" 2 channel (sorry for the bad focus):
http://oi61.tinypic.com/30aqa7o.jpg
For the Frida:
THD + N
http://i49.tinypic.com/34g6bk2.jpg
SNR for 1% THD
http://i45.tinypic.com/xfre9s.jpg
Originally Posted by tomelex
Nice work HDVS! Do you have THD and IMD results as well?
Unfortunately I didn't take pictures of all the measured parameters. The recorders are gone now, together with their technical sheets.
Anyway I've those pictures related to a sweep of the THD+N (way higher than THD alone) of a Studer A812 MkII taken without and with HX Pro in the recording chain:
http://oi54.tinypic.com/15zjq6d.jpg
http://oi53.tinypic.com/nxl151.jpg
Here you find an FFT with a modulation signal of 10 KHz at 0 dB and the square wave response at 10 KHz:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/102v3w8.jpg
And this is x-talk + phase response of the same recorder:
http://oi59.tinypic.com/jgpeo3.jpg
This is of the recently refurbished Studer A80 1" 2 channel (sorry for the bad focus):
http://oi61.tinypic.com/30aqa7o.jpg
For the Frida:
THD + N
http://i49.tinypic.com/34g6bk2.jpg
SNR for 1% THD
http://i45.tinypic.com/xfre9s.jpg
Poor a.wayne - always has to be gently led to understanding ... if you care to recall, I have mentioned playing with other systems over the years, some with 'serious' speakers, as in, if you walk into them in the dark you might do yourself an injury - there is a faint possibility that I could have been talking about those speakers,Frank , you still crack me up
. Do note, we are talking recordings here - not what something sounds like on the absolutely current plaything ...
An interesting thing with the DEQX system of a couple of days ago, we ran the Denon test tracks of a classical snippet, attenuated by 60, 40, 20dB, in successive tracks. Could just hear the -60dB version, about the same level as on mine at maximum volume; I asked if he could turn it up, and was a bit surprised when he said that that was maximum gain - he had calibrated the volume control so that full level was just at the edge of clipping, to protect his speakers.
This gives a bit of an idea of what actual dynamic ranges often are on normal setups.
This gives a bit of an idea of what actual dynamic ranges often are on normal setups.
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