So how much better is a modern player than the cutting lathe? At some point, the level of perfection becomes moot. My old Thores with a half pound of plumbers putty under it seemed to do fine. I got more advantage by my isolation box than when a friend brought over his SP12. The only real upgrade I was considering was a Denon 300 and amp above my Grace F9e. Then I went CD so I could play more music, not spend time playing with my music.
There you go, I wondered how nobody else thought of it, and as usual, it turns out somebody did. Cheers for the tip, Martin.
If such a system can be made to work reliably on a 6,000 rpm engine, surely its issues at 78 rpm could be mastered relatively quickly, let alone at 33.3 rpm. When you consider the mechanicals, no matter how heavy the platter may be, it will always be WAY less inert than the whatnots the engine camshaft belt has to overcome.. Slip, meaning torque losses, could be practically eliminated.
My home made car revs up to 8,500 rpm no problemo, then the rev limiter kicks in. Compared with the mechanical forces in that case, a slow, slow revving platter is child's play.
Oddly enough, or not, that appears to be the most common upgrade many have made to their TTs - increase of mass.
There's no telling just how much one gains from it, meaning how much vibration is actually eliminated, but surely it is moved downward spectrum wise. I have seen new plinths made od real, dried, solid oak wood, and there's no denying the sound had cleared up. Whether the gain was worth the time, trouble and money I cannot judge, people are tight lipped when it comes to cost issues.
But when one replaces a 3-4 kilo veneered chipboard TT case with a solid oak one, weighing in at something like 10-11 kilos, there MUST be some benefits aside from superior looks.
As for how much better that is to a modern cutting lathe, an excellent question BTW, I believe modern cutting lathes could be made to be incomparably better than those of yesteryear. Consider how much superior modern control electronics are compared to those of the late 70ies, and weight problems become much more a thing of the past.
Frankly, I don't see that as a problem, but vinyl quality always was, and I suspect still is today, THE big question. Not because we don't know how to do it, companies like JVC and Sheffield Labs demonstrated way back then how muich better than normal they could be, but because of the price involved and the still relatively dormant market. Let's face it, in comparison with the total market volume, those looking for LPs are still a very small number, and those ready to pay even more for them is smaller still.
To us here, paying say $15 for an LP may be a good deal compared to a $5 CD, but many would not agree. Because, let's face it, vinyl has associated costs - you need a TT, a cartridge and some extra electronics and side gadgets to make it work, which is an additional investment many will not want to undertake.
And as Demian pinted out, we do need to spend more time making it work, as opposed to a CD, which we simply stick into the player and press PLAY.
Lastly, we need to ask ourselves - how will the record industry react to a new wave of LPs? Will CD manufacturers just lie down and die, or will they react by suddenly "discovering" methods to improve the CD sound? Which, let's be frank about that, is generally misused rather than used today to promote sheer loudness at the cost of quality. To prove that, just take a Deutche Gramofon CD recording from say 1990 to realize just how much CD potential is lost on the general market. No crackles, no pops, and you don't need a SAE 5000 noise reduction box to clean things up (besides, SAE is not around any more). I had one, and it did work as advertised and then some; no doubt a much better and cheaper version could be made today, but it would still add up in the final reckoning.
Tim de Paravacini has that . The belt Harley use in miniature seems close to an idea . Even worm drive might just work .
My old company has found me a Lenco 88 ( ? ) . A Lenco Garrard 301 . That should keep me happy .
Video recorder motors were suggested . Alas now non existent .
The problems with belt drive is it's strength is ultimately it's weakness . That which makes cheaper turntables possible causes better ones to fail . The belt is too soft . I am surprised Linn didn't see this . Perhaps a turntable raised to a region can not ever have been wrong ? Grundig in the 1950's had cloth backed belts . That seems an idea worth looking at . Kevlar perhaps ? To remind everyone I still have a Linn which gets used .
BTW Dvv . Britain WAS a country that started to have problems in 1851. Completely broken by 1978 . It will happen to every mature industrial nation , I sense already in China the start . Our big problem was people put in management positions who couldn't organize their way out of a paper bag . That's all changed and we now have small companies that link up to do projects . We have a place called Cxxbe mill locally ( better not say ) . One guy worked on our versions of E boats and is a true expert . This was with the larger Deltic two stroke diesels ( don't ask , I would love to say ) . Upstairs you have the idiots from British Leyland who run the place . So smug it is untrue . Meet these guys and all is made clear . BMW with the same production staff are now the Mini factory . It has outgrown the site . BMW are not great bosses. All they do is make it work , wages are very good . Honda seem not to have succeeded with the Swindon factory ( Mini's twin , home of Garrard ) . The Honda engineering is better . The cars are deadly boring in the majority of models . The Jazz which is an old design now still has performance benchmarks . A local guys has the older Rover V8 , I am so jealous .
Anyone wanting the best turntable should consider a cutting lather ( Scully ) . You would not believe how good they sound .
When the Garrard 501 was originally reviewed the reviewer said approximately " the LP12 by comparison sounds like a slightly drunk old professional . So professional he can not deliver an obviously wrong performance " . Later was . " When listening to the Beatles on a radio the sound was somehow different to hi fi ( better ) . The 501 has that sound . Perhaps the EMT turntables common in Germany then make their way through a good radio " . When I last saw him he still had the LP12 . Even at our best price we could not do a 501 for him that he could afford .
The technical review said 501 was the only turntable measured at the then Stuttgart Motor Press that looked like a Revox ( I think called Audiophile ) . That makes it easy to sum up . No jelly wobble . - 79 dB weighted rumble which was 3 dB better than the Thorens reference . We were briefly the best in the world on rumble ( idler drive is theoretically incapable of that ) . Transrotor made sure that was short lived . The sound of that turntable is more Linn like ( detached ) .
http://www.garrard501.com/aud1005_p0120_Garrard501.pdf
The motor is my own design in the photo ( link ) . It has an air bearing I call Aeroflux . It is 27 watts reduced to 10 watts typical . Using an oversize motor helps . It is about 90 mm diameter . Greenwich University made a test rig for it and a student got his degree based on it alone . I was told to go to patent . I never bothered as I was happy it worked . The specialty of the patent was I had removed chaotic noise . We had two components of vibration , rotational speed and mains frequency . The two look like AM radio modulation . Most motors have a blanket of noises which is bearing induced . These components can be held low by good bearing fit . Alas that brings other problems . Unlike what I said about the turntable bearings none of that applies . Every bit of nonsense said about the turntable bearing IS true of the motor . Most do not make their motors . Thus they don't talk about it . Surprisingly dynamically balancing the motor screwed it up ( it was a facility F1 use ) . The key is to centre everything . This takes days of set up . Then do a production run . A very nice gentleman in the Black Forest did this for us . He is ill health retired so had the time . The shafts from a Swiss company who specialize in similar ( military ) . Then simple static balance of the rotors , I did some myself with improvised knife edges . The outer bearings very cheap phosphor bronze 6 mm . Cheap does not mean rubbish . The are the best bit of the motor . We held them in self aligning outer's with copious quarantines of oil held in felt . The heat of the motor causes tidal flow ( ideal ) .
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My old boss Julian Mason who has no internet translated the text . Seeing as he has only a passing interest in German not bad work . No Google translate .
We had a hi fi shop in Oxford . We also sold video . I was the engineer .
http://www.garrard501.com/501 review En 10.05.pdf
We had a hi fi shop in Oxford . We also sold video . I was the engineer .
http://www.garrard501.com/501 review En 10.05.pdf
The biggest problem I have with records is not the turntable, but rather the records themselves.
The record industry cut corners for profits. Less vinyl in each pressing and shorter press time resulted in warped records. Tracking becomes a nightmare.
They also kept producing records when the presses should have been replaced.
Off center spindle holes.
The list goes on and on.
Record quality in the late 70s and 80s was often absimal.
The record industry cut corners for profits. Less vinyl in each pressing and shorter press time resulted in warped records. Tracking becomes a nightmare.
They also kept producing records when the presses should have been replaced.
Off center spindle holes.
The list goes on and on.
Record quality in the late 70s and 80s was often absimal.
Like tubes we reject LP's at our peril . They keep us honest .
The strangest thing with tubes is the further one goes back the better they are ( 2A3 ) .
And to think all of this started with me buying a new lawnmower with a US engine . Had it been China I wouldn't have bothered . I have to say at the price I paid I am so pleased it is made in the USA . The B&S 450 is still assembled there . I can say no better of what I make and see no problem with saying it . Even if the parts are 100 % China ( no idea ) , the design and assembly plus quality control is USA . Doubtless that's the kiss of death from me to say that .
The strangest thing with tubes is the further one goes back the better they are ( 2A3 ) .
And to think all of this started with me buying a new lawnmower with a US engine . Had it been China I wouldn't have bothered . I have to say at the price I paid I am so pleased it is made in the USA . The B&S 450 is still assembled there . I can say no better of what I make and see no problem with saying it . Even if the parts are 100 % China ( no idea ) , the design and assembly plus quality control is USA . Doubtless that's the kiss of death from me to say that .
Aye, but along the way we learnt:
1. TTs need to have idler drive, as the most complex and trouble ridden drive of all, because it keeps us honest;
2. It's very hard to decide which drive to use these days:
3. Da Boss will be Da Designer,
and we never even got to the tonearm.
And imagine the fracas when deciding which cartridge to use.
But it was fun.
1. TTs need to have idler drive, as the most complex and trouble ridden drive of all, because it keeps us honest;
2. It's very hard to decide which drive to use these days:
3. Da Boss will be Da Designer,
and we never even got to the tonearm.
And imagine the fracas when deciding which cartridge to use.But it was fun.
Well, the problem I had with LP/TT prepre etc.... was that so much of it quickly wore out. The Lp and the cart tip primarily.
And, for 15-20 minutes of playing time it wasnt worth the effort to keep everything running and aligned et al. A mechanical nightmare.
High Def download from masters seem to sound the best.... over LP and CD.
THx-RNMarsh
And, for 15-20 minutes of playing time it wasnt worth the effort to keep everything running and aligned et al. A mechanical nightmare.
High Def download from masters seem to sound the best.... over LP and CD.
THx-RNMarsh
Bad setup Richard, it does require some dicking around but nothing like you describe, it is still subjectively superior to Hi-def downloads, I'm reasonably sure you would feel the same if you heard the comparison, the same for R2R masters vs digital.
PS: I cant believe people live where the earth shakes, like they have to ...
no Wayne.... I spent years - no, decades, - with LP. Went thru all the mashinations possible and then some. I have tape 1/2 track masters ... they sound far and away better than the LP from them. I gave all my LP equipment away and ditto the LP's of a life time. Did the LP system sound 'good'? yes. But not up to Master standards. CD doesnt come up to the Master source tape standards either. Sonically. And, then the LP/needle wears and degrades over time/use to add insult to injury.
IMO
THx-RNMarsh
IMO
THx-RNMarsh
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Yes, it does, Richard.
What I used to do is when I buy 2 or 3 new LPs, I take off them what I like and tape it on my open reel deck. My standard speed was 19 cm/s (7.5 ips), my standard tapes were Agfa and Maxell. Both had exceptionally long service lives.
My first deck I swiped from my dad, it was an Uher Royal de Luxe. Used only smaller 7 inch reels, but it didn't really bother me, as this offered an hour of program on one, and another on the other side, which is comfortable enough. Also, it used a much loved by me German systema whereby the head block could be dismanteled without any tools and a new one put in, or a 2 track one stuck in. I went through 3 head blocks in 11 years, it was truly MUCH used (and I tend to be a perfectionist).
Then, in 1980, I bought a brand new Philips N4520 60 lbs mammoth deck. An awesome machine, truly, 3 speeds including 38 cm/s (15 ips), with NAB/IEC switchable mode, big reels, electronic tape tensioning, and it was a belt drive. The app. 5 lbs heavy flywheel had a tachogenerator, so speed was always spot on, Philips advertised "less than 0,5%" tape speed deviation beginning to end, but people measured that at around 0.1%. It also had an external bias control so I could use almost any tape on the market, which was good because some, like Maxell, had the new high energy tapes out, and they did make a difference.
The point is, I didn't need to run LPs a lot, I doubt most of my LPs have been played more than say 10 times all told. No need, lots of tapes.
But overall, I agree, LPs were a pain to use, if used properly. So, when Philips let me have a trial series CD burner in 1995, I sold off the tape deck and switched to CDs completely.
What I used to do is when I buy 2 or 3 new LPs, I take off them what I like and tape it on my open reel deck. My standard speed was 19 cm/s (7.5 ips), my standard tapes were Agfa and Maxell. Both had exceptionally long service lives.
My first deck I swiped from my dad, it was an Uher Royal de Luxe. Used only smaller 7 inch reels, but it didn't really bother me, as this offered an hour of program on one, and another on the other side, which is comfortable enough. Also, it used a much loved by me German systema whereby the head block could be dismanteled without any tools and a new one put in, or a 2 track one stuck in. I went through 3 head blocks in 11 years, it was truly MUCH used (and I tend to be a perfectionist).
Then, in 1980, I bought a brand new Philips N4520 60 lbs mammoth deck. An awesome machine, truly, 3 speeds including 38 cm/s (15 ips), with NAB/IEC switchable mode, big reels, electronic tape tensioning, and it was a belt drive. The app. 5 lbs heavy flywheel had a tachogenerator, so speed was always spot on, Philips advertised "less than 0,5%" tape speed deviation beginning to end, but people measured that at around 0.1%. It also had an external bias control so I could use almost any tape on the market, which was good because some, like Maxell, had the new high energy tapes out, and they did make a difference.
The point is, I didn't need to run LPs a lot, I doubt most of my LPs have been played more than say 10 times all told. No need, lots of tapes.
But overall, I agree, LPs were a pain to use, if used properly. So, when Philips let me have a trial series CD burner in 1995, I sold off the tape deck and switched to CDs completely.
I used to live next to USAF base Upper Heyford ( F111's ) . The guys could get hi fi at distributor prices . Many had good turntables and Revox tape recorders . On buying a new LP they would record it . The Revox did very little to change the sound . It wasn't ideal as finding a track takes time . The sound was dependable . Also the look of a Revox making music is still something I associate with having reached Nirvana in hi fi .
Turntables are a bit like motorcycles . Practicality is low , fun is high . I drink with a gentleman called Martin Barker . He wrote many of the sleeves for DGG . LP's were and are a work of art . CD is a consumer product . When I asked a man perhaps Peter Andre he said " Remember this was the fist time we could present the artist as in real life , we took it very seriously " . Record producers passed the same exams as conductors in the 1950's . Hi fi was born out of the facilities to build being common , highly trained engineers , no work . It was more of Heaven than Hell . Hell had been reality during war . Reading electronics journals this changed about 1955 . New jobs in computing etc , silicon transistor becoming available ) . That left the dedicated to stay in hi fi .
Keeping us honest is that annoyingly valves and LP's have a presence and believability like real music . If someone says it is distortion I will smile . It isn't . When steps are taken to reduce it the sound is even more realistic . Most of the better microphones are ribbon + valve . Recording engineers pay plenty for them . The more modern mics are fine . If a singer has a small but beautiful voice they work a treat . It should be pointed out that seeing something glow in the dark is of no importance to me . People love that , it makes them happy . To me it detracts a bit .
Turntables are a bit like motorcycles . Practicality is low , fun is high . I drink with a gentleman called Martin Barker . He wrote many of the sleeves for DGG . LP's were and are a work of art . CD is a consumer product . When I asked a man perhaps Peter Andre he said " Remember this was the fist time we could present the artist as in real life , we took it very seriously " . Record producers passed the same exams as conductors in the 1950's . Hi fi was born out of the facilities to build being common , highly trained engineers , no work . It was more of Heaven than Hell . Hell had been reality during war . Reading electronics journals this changed about 1955 . New jobs in computing etc , silicon transistor becoming available ) . That left the dedicated to stay in hi fi .
Keeping us honest is that annoyingly valves and LP's have a presence and believability like real music . If someone says it is distortion I will smile . It isn't . When steps are taken to reduce it the sound is even more realistic . Most of the better microphones are ribbon + valve . Recording engineers pay plenty for them . The more modern mics are fine . If a singer has a small but beautiful voice they work a treat . It should be pointed out that seeing something glow in the dark is of no importance to me . People love that , it makes them happy . To me it detracts a bit .
On reVox tape decks - they made their name in the late 60ies and early 70ies in the home audio market, everybody knew they were Studer products in drag. And while the sound they gave was a BIG deal up to say 1975, thereafter others had caught up with them in terms of sound, though many still lagged behind in terms of build qualuty, where Studer/reVox excelled. Consequently, they were extremely reliable and robust, they could take what few other couldn't even hope for.
By 1980, Philips beat them to the punch, Germany's STEREO (I think?) magazine abandoned their reference standard reVox B77 for my Philips, on grounds of just as good though different mechanics, but better sound. There were others who did just as good, for example Grundig TS1000, Tandberg of Norway, and especially ASC series 5000 and 6000. To this day I regret not having an ASC 6004 (4 track) at home. I have a feeling it was one hell of a machine.
On the professional front, Studer took a few slaps again from Philips, their 6xx series were DAMN good machines which could take on Studer at something like 20% lower cost, and at those prices, 20% was a serious sum for which you could buy a brand new car.
Nige, a tape recorder at home is by definition a compromise. Assuming a well kept, maintained and calibrated machine, the taped sound at 19 cm/s was almost indistinguishable from the original LP, as tape decks had moved up, while the vinyl itself had moved down (in thickness, quality and especially longevity). But by then, 1980 was upon us, and the CD format was already looming, and would commercially be with us in just 3-4 years. Too late for everybody else, people just love brand new toys.
I think you are most unrealistically enamoured with the LP. SOME were a work of art, most were simply commercial fare, quite like the CD. The record companies were after our money, that's all there is to it. All the love was spent by the mid 70ies, with the demise of the Flower Power movement. The boom of the audio industry 1970-1980 simply could not change those facts. More audio was being made, at greater prices, and the record industry wanted its share of the big cake.
What you said about tube gear and LPs is, in my view, sheer wishing. The amount of crap I have heard over the last year from start up companies I have never even heard of was like 70% tube gear; in my view, a complete rip-off, I can name off hand 5 transistor units which will run circles around them at far lower prices.
Good gear is good gear, no matter what it's made of, but these days, all you have to say is "Tubes!" and you have an instant licence, indeed duty, to hike your prices as far as they can go with regard to nothing else but the tubes inside. Higher prices make you more believable.
Which in my book, in direct opposition to your views, help perpetrate low quality but TUBE gear, hardly keeping us honest. Ditto for the LP - if you were to tell a man who never had them before what he has to own before playing the first one, I think like 99% of them would give up right there and then. The cost is simply prohibitive.
And that hardly keeps us honest, doesn't it? If you have to be rich to own a decent LP setup?
By 1980, Philips beat them to the punch, Germany's STEREO (I think?) magazine abandoned their reference standard reVox B77 for my Philips, on grounds of just as good though different mechanics, but better sound. There were others who did just as good, for example Grundig TS1000, Tandberg of Norway, and especially ASC series 5000 and 6000. To this day I regret not having an ASC 6004 (4 track) at home. I have a feeling it was one hell of a machine.
On the professional front, Studer took a few slaps again from Philips, their 6xx series were DAMN good machines which could take on Studer at something like 20% lower cost, and at those prices, 20% was a serious sum for which you could buy a brand new car.
Nige, a tape recorder at home is by definition a compromise. Assuming a well kept, maintained and calibrated machine, the taped sound at 19 cm/s was almost indistinguishable from the original LP, as tape decks had moved up, while the vinyl itself had moved down (in thickness, quality and especially longevity). But by then, 1980 was upon us, and the CD format was already looming, and would commercially be with us in just 3-4 years. Too late for everybody else, people just love brand new toys.
I think you are most unrealistically enamoured with the LP. SOME were a work of art, most were simply commercial fare, quite like the CD. The record companies were after our money, that's all there is to it. All the love was spent by the mid 70ies, with the demise of the Flower Power movement. The boom of the audio industry 1970-1980 simply could not change those facts. More audio was being made, at greater prices, and the record industry wanted its share of the big cake.
What you said about tube gear and LPs is, in my view, sheer wishing. The amount of crap I have heard over the last year from start up companies I have never even heard of was like 70% tube gear; in my view, a complete rip-off, I can name off hand 5 transistor units which will run circles around them at far lower prices.
Good gear is good gear, no matter what it's made of, but these days, all you have to say is "Tubes!" and you have an instant licence, indeed duty, to hike your prices as far as they can go with regard to nothing else but the tubes inside. Higher prices make you more believable.
Which in my book, in direct opposition to your views, help perpetrate low quality but TUBE gear, hardly keeping us honest. Ditto for the LP - if you were to tell a man who never had them before what he has to own before playing the first one, I think like 99% of them would give up right there and then. The cost is simply prohibitive.
And that hardly keeps us honest, doesn't it? If you have to be rich to own a decent LP setup?
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Yep and bad audio ever since .......
"Condemnation without examination is prejudice" John Curl. . . .
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