All technologies can work, if sufficient effort is put into circumventing the 'natural' weaknesses ...
Interesting that he's using modified Hypex. I wonder what the mods are?
Frank since you say all tech can work, what's your fix for the 'B&W colouration' (aka Kevlar cones)? Over on WBF, Amir mentioned in one of his posts that 'B&W had a significant flaw' (such that when listening blind, people preferred other speakers to B&W) but wouldn't be drawn on what it was despite at least one poster asking a direct question....😛
Frank since you say all tech can work, what's your fix for the 'B&W colouration' (aka Kevlar cones)? Over on WBF, Amir mentioned in one of his posts that 'B&W had a significant flaw' (such that when listening blind, people preferred other speakers to B&W) but wouldn't be drawn on what it was despite at least one poster asking a direct question....😛
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Limited in frequency response, limited in dynamic range, too much distortion, limited in damping factor (control), limited in slew factor, and unstable with variable impedances (the lower the Ω the less control). ...Choking. ...Clipping.
...Misses the air, the ambiance, the dark black background, the transparency of the music recordings.
No thanks. 🙂 IMHO of course.
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Okay, with your unit there is that dramatic midrange valley in the response - and I'm wondering whether there was a deliberate decision by the B&W management to go for a very hyped up, 'hifi' sound - I have heard a couple of that brand in recent years in people's homes, and apart from the usual considerations there was a sense of over-saturation in the sound, as if the Colour setting was too 'hot', so to speak.
First off, I would redo a key track, in Audacity, say - EQ the waveform so that on playback the response matched that of more "normal" speakers, see if that tells you anything. If the sound still had a disturbing edge, I would thoroughly troubleshoot all the electricals - the speaker by its nature could be emphasising any flaws in the chain, so I would want the path to be 100% hardwired, from the outputs of the amp to the driver voice coil leads - every, and I mean every, contact which only relies on pressure to do its job to be eliminated.
No my CM1s are just one example. I don't believe the colouration I speak of is directly correlated with FR flatness - rather I suspect its down to all the 'buried resonances' inherent in the Kevlar material. Buried resonances don't normally show on FR plots as they're normally a few tens of dBs down, hence 'buried'. I note that Pierre says he's not too keen on B&Ws either - Pierre what do you hear that you dislike?
If there are resonances a simple test is to feed in pure sine waves, static in frequency, and move up and down in frequency steps - and just listen. There is an obvious difference when hearing a pure frequency vs. when harmonics or unrelated tones intrude - I've found this very effective in picking misbehaviour.
And, the MATT test, a downloadable room resonance exciting waveform, is also excellent at highlighting speaker problems ...
In any event, I would thoroughly check what's inside the speaker - SOP for me!
And, the MATT test, a downloadable room resonance exciting waveform, is also excellent at highlighting speaker problems ...
In any event, I would thoroughly check what's inside the speaker - SOP for me!
That'll probably work for where the resonances are relatively high Q, but I rather suspect here they're not - rather they're over-damped.
If you feed a speaker a signal that provokes a resonance, and maintain that signal as a constant, driving waveform then the resonance will continue to be excited, no matter how well damped it may be when the exciter energy is removed.
Can you be more specific about the colouration - some sites mention Kevlar being susceptible to a HF resonance, yet one review talks about midrange warmth of the CM1's as an audible artifact of the Kevlar. How is the sound of those B&Ws, different ...?
Can you be more specific about the colouration - some sites mention Kevlar being susceptible to a HF resonance, yet one review talks about midrange warmth of the CM1's as an audible artifact of the Kevlar. How is the sound of those B&Ws, different ...?
Sure - but here I suspect there are multiple low-Q resonances. So it induces a noise-like effect.
Its such a long time ago when I last listened - I just recall switching them off fairly quickly as if I'd got a fly in my ear. I didn't listen long enough to characterize my complaint about the sound. I wonder if Pierre has any observations to chip in?
Hmmm, could be crossover components needing to be conditioned - I wouldn't pass judgement on any dynamic speakers that hadn't been given a solid warmup treatment first - I always treat what comes out for the first hour or so as rubbish, to be taken no notice of ...
Last ones I heard were the shop's demo models which were on sale (column speakers in the €1500 range without the sale) so I can suppose they were broken in... I don't remember the exact model.
The sound is difficult to describe besides something was very wrong with the midrange, kind of when the midrange driver enclosure has too little stuffing and it resonates, something like that... it was not a subtle difference at all, very obvious, and I didnt' like it at all. Not to the point of honking or shouty midrange, but definitely not enjoyable. I don't have any measurements, it was 3-4 years ago, and I only listened to them for a few minutes, so I can't provide more details, sorry... basically it was "blehhh!!!! Next !!!" Then there were some other speakers from other brands which were much better...
All the speakers were more or less in the same spot, same amp, the room was pretty good, etc, and the B&W were the only speakers that day to really "BLEHHH" me.
Frank, I see nothing meriting an apology. It was a pertinent question no matter what you believe, because the does affect the sound, and in more ways than one.
There's the refraction, unwanted resonances, unwanted damping, etc, and there's the matter of power requirements. Obviously, a small room will need less power to go to town, what I use daily I wouldn't get away with in your room, which is three times the size, we both know that.
By default, my room is easier to drive, so to speak.
Amen!
You could be quoting me here, Frank, but that expresses my sentiments exactly!
I have heard some wonderfully sounding devices using just about every tehnology under the sun, and I've heard many more sounding so-so or even outright bad, also using just about every technology under the sun.
"Pig headed" was a gross understatement for how I felt say 30 years ago, but in the meanwhile, I have managed to evolve somewhat. I daresay papa Thorsten had quite a bit to do with that, but I always was a sucker for claims the one who makes them then duly proves to be correct with real life examples, and papa Thorsten is very good at that. Trust me on this, he's been treatuing me for the last 12 years or so, we go a loooong way back, and every iota of my experience tells me I should trust him.
Proof? Well, after so many years, he has managed to get me to actually use FETs. 😀 😀 😀 I guess the next 5 years will be dedicated to get me to use MOSFETs at the output. 😀 😀 😀
Pierre, thank you for the Cabasse rundown. I must admit that the few models I have heard have left me with some good memories, it seems their and my views on overall voicing coincide unusally well.
They did remind me of JBL monitors in one aspect - they too were bubbling with the joy of life, as if asking for more and more.
B&W on the other hand I usually forget like 5 minutes afte I've heard them. Where has the company which produced DM14 and DM6 (a.k.a. The Fat Man) gone? Those I remember fondly, but that was all before 1980 ...
Unfortunately, much the same can be said from my point of view of well neight all better known British speaker manufacturers. Monitor Audio, Wharefedale, KEF, Mission and the rest of them, unfortunately Spendor as well, seem to be producing bland speakers these days, in effect capitalising on their old fame.
I realize tastes change with time, and I realize they are in it for the money and thus must adapt to new market requirements, but to me, it seems the almost palpable quality of yore has been lost in the transition. Just try a Spendor BC3 and you'll know what I mean.
A Rogers 3 way monitor, using a 10" bass, was one of the best speakers I have ever heard bar none, but that too was pre-1980.
So, chalk me up as another B&W evader.
They did remind me of JBL monitors in one aspect - they too were bubbling with the joy of life, as if asking for more and more.
B&W on the other hand I usually forget like 5 minutes afte I've heard them. Where has the company which produced DM14 and DM6 (a.k.a. The Fat Man) gone? Those I remember fondly, but that was all before 1980 ...
Unfortunately, much the same can be said from my point of view of well neight all better known British speaker manufacturers. Monitor Audio, Wharefedale, KEF, Mission and the rest of them, unfortunately Spendor as well, seem to be producing bland speakers these days, in effect capitalising on their old fame.
I realize tastes change with time, and I realize they are in it for the money and thus must adapt to new market requirements, but to me, it seems the almost palpable quality of yore has been lost in the transition. Just try a Spendor BC3 and you'll know what I mean.
A Rogers 3 way monitor, using a 10" bass, was one of the best speakers I have ever heard bar none, but that too was pre-1980.
So, chalk me up as another B&W evader.
MOSFETS can do it! - we know how our mr wayne feels, but the Perreaux 30 years ago gave me the first very special moment of sound, the thing that I've been chasing all these decades - its major "failing" was that it was not designed for current delivery, but as regards clarity of sound it was totally capable, using the classic Hitachi output devices ...
I second that.
I heard the first Perraux in the early 80-ies in London, and to this day, it remains one of the very few MOSFET amp I would love to own.
But in all truth, I have heard comments that its eas choosy regarding speakers, if you want magic in your room, and that is not good.
If you come across a dead PMF2150B, there's a chance it may be easily recovered. Can't be a coincidence, one channel died, turned out to be a simple resistor, no signs of obvious problems. Then, quite a bit later the other channel died, and, yes, the corresponding resistor was it! Never tried to analyse it, so either that part has some unusual stress imparted to it, or Perreaux happened to use a dud bunch of resistors at one point.
And then, give the power supply a huge boost in capacity - will make a big difference ...
And then, give the power supply a huge boost in capacity - will make a big difference ...
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