my computer - video editing workstation, is very noisy. i do not have noise level meter, and maybe even better, considering how much noise this workstation makes. some people change fans in the computer case/power supply, but it seems that would not be enough in my case, because much of the noise comes from workstation's numerous hard drives. maybe the easiest solution for my problem is a sound insulation enclosure, a cabinet ( http://www.iso-box.com/Isobox_post_production.php?photos ). unfortunately, my computer wouldn't fit in any available sound insulation cabinet on the market, or the cabinet wouldn't fit into my budget, so the only choice left is to try build one - diy.
nominal power of the computer is 1100w. according to this diagram (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/28508491144.jpg&s=x10 ), it seems that sufficient air flow to cool this computer in this insulation enclosure would be 200-250m3/h or 120-150cfm. is this right?
in order to muffle the noise of the enclosure ventilation fans, both intake and exhaust fans must have their own noise protection, some kind of sound labyrinth, see http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/noise-protection/section.htm and http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/noise-protection/details.htm . the biggest unknown to me are the size and design of that sound labyrinth? in theory, the sound should be weakened by passing the long tunnels of the zigzag-shaped labyrinth lined with some sound absorption material. how many 180 degree bends are sufficient to absorb both high and low frequency noises? how narrow the tunnels/labyrinth should be to absorb the fan noise and allow suficient airflow?
in my understanding, it is a must to avoid compression of the air propelled by fans and the noise of the turbulence caused by that compressed air. therefore, it seems to me that sound labyrinth surface must have at least the same area as fans. in this case, it seems that 2 papst fans model 4214nl (119 x 119 x 38 mm) are the best choice, providing required air flow. 2 fans have surface of 2 x 113cm2 = 226cm or 40 sq inch. accordingly, labyrinth surface area should be at least the same. is this right? if i build bigger labyrinth surface area, would that cancel the muffler effect of the labyrinth - and make sound pass thru easier? any thoughts? also the shape of that surface is tricky... 40 sq inch: is it the same if labyrinth is 1 inch x 40 inch or 8 inch x 5 inch? http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/schallschutz/vorne.jpg is this too narrow? http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/noise-protection/details.htm
materials for the cabinet...
it is obvious that cabinet must be built with sound insulation materials, for both, low and high frequencies. the problem is that every manufacturer of the sound insulating materials claims only his material provide real / the best sound insulation. who can guesstimate which sound insulating materials/manufacturers to be applied for the inside of the cabinet?
aditional pictures
intake fans: http://www.iso-box.com/images/post/post_fans.jpg
exhaust fans: http://www.iso-box.com/images/post/post_back.jpg
cabinets
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/30223091195.gif&s=x11
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/30223085272.gif&s=x11
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/30223081929.jpg&s=x11
i would appreciate any comments or thoughts.
nominal power of the computer is 1100w. according to this diagram (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/28508491144.jpg&s=x10 ), it seems that sufficient air flow to cool this computer in this insulation enclosure would be 200-250m3/h or 120-150cfm. is this right?
in order to muffle the noise of the enclosure ventilation fans, both intake and exhaust fans must have their own noise protection, some kind of sound labyrinth, see http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/noise-protection/section.htm and http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/noise-protection/details.htm . the biggest unknown to me are the size and design of that sound labyrinth? in theory, the sound should be weakened by passing the long tunnels of the zigzag-shaped labyrinth lined with some sound absorption material. how many 180 degree bends are sufficient to absorb both high and low frequency noises? how narrow the tunnels/labyrinth should be to absorb the fan noise and allow suficient airflow?
in my understanding, it is a must to avoid compression of the air propelled by fans and the noise of the turbulence caused by that compressed air. therefore, it seems to me that sound labyrinth surface must have at least the same area as fans. in this case, it seems that 2 papst fans model 4214nl (119 x 119 x 38 mm) are the best choice, providing required air flow. 2 fans have surface of 2 x 113cm2 = 226cm or 40 sq inch. accordingly, labyrinth surface area should be at least the same. is this right? if i build bigger labyrinth surface area, would that cancel the muffler effect of the labyrinth - and make sound pass thru easier? any thoughts? also the shape of that surface is tricky... 40 sq inch: is it the same if labyrinth is 1 inch x 40 inch or 8 inch x 5 inch? http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/schallschutz/vorne.jpg is this too narrow? http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/noise-protection/details.htm
materials for the cabinet...
it is obvious that cabinet must be built with sound insulation materials, for both, low and high frequencies. the problem is that every manufacturer of the sound insulating materials claims only his material provide real / the best sound insulation. who can guesstimate which sound insulating materials/manufacturers to be applied for the inside of the cabinet?
aditional pictures
intake fans: http://www.iso-box.com/images/post/post_fans.jpg
exhaust fans: http://www.iso-box.com/images/post/post_back.jpg
cabinets
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/30223091195.gif&s=x11
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/30223085272.gif&s=x11
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/30223081929.jpg&s=x11
i would appreciate any comments or thoughts.
I'm sure you will get good advice here, but also make sure you post at www.silentpcreview.com forums if you haven't. They have some real silent computer fanatics there.
instead of building a hige cabinet, why not silence your PC instead.
instead of a small fast noisy cpu fan you could get a big 120mm fan and a duct adapter. the fan can spin much slower and move the same air.
watercooling will silence your CPU fan (many kits to choose from) water cooling is much less scary than you might think especially with a kit.
passive heatpipe cooler for the video card (zalmann makes one)
passive chipset cooler if your chipset has a nasty little fan on it just put a larger passive heatsink there instead.
then the only thing is hard drives. you can get quieter drivesmost newer ones with "fluid bearings" some are berely audiable.
to silence current drives, you can isolate them from the case with rubber grommets. it makes a big difference if the noise is not transmitted to the thin drum like metal of the case.
most of these things can be passed on to a newer machine if you upgrade, i have used my zalman heatpipr cooler on 3 different video cards so far.
If you decide to go with the cabinet, why not put the exhaust fans in another box in a different room, and run a dryer duct between them. we used that method in one recording studio, and it worked welll for humans.
instead of a small fast noisy cpu fan you could get a big 120mm fan and a duct adapter. the fan can spin much slower and move the same air.
watercooling will silence your CPU fan (many kits to choose from) water cooling is much less scary than you might think especially with a kit.
passive heatpipe cooler for the video card (zalmann makes one)
passive chipset cooler if your chipset has a nasty little fan on it just put a larger passive heatsink there instead.
then the only thing is hard drives. you can get quieter drivesmost newer ones with "fluid bearings" some are berely audiable.
to silence current drives, you can isolate them from the case with rubber grommets. it makes a big difference if the noise is not transmitted to the thin drum like metal of the case.
most of these things can be passed on to a newer machine if you upgrade, i have used my zalman heatpipr cooler on 3 different video cards so far.
If you decide to go with the cabinet, why not put the exhaust fans in another box in a different room, and run a dryer duct between them. we used that method in one recording studio, and it worked welll for humans.
well, thanks for comments.
this computer is not a toy. it is very serious and expensive tool for the work. it simply needs a insulation enclosure, real big, solid cabinet with the plenty of sound blocking and absorbing materials, together with its thickenss.
main problem is this sound labyrinth, actually its design. blocking the noise and letting the air go freely. the thing is: i cant find any references on the internet.
anyhow, thanks once more for your comments and ideas.
this computer is not a toy. it is very serious and expensive tool for the work. it simply needs a insulation enclosure, real big, solid cabinet with the plenty of sound blocking and absorbing materials, together with its thickenss.
main problem is this sound labyrinth, actually its design. blocking the noise and letting the air go freely. the thing is: i cant find any references on the internet.
anyhow, thanks once more for your comments and ideas.
here's some I found quick on the silentpcreview.com forums search
Actual Product
http://www.norenproducts.com/
Homemade Enclosure
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/juhladude/
The thing people find I think is that it helps to start with quiet parts to begin with. If you are attached to your computer, it might be worth the investment to buy a KVM switch so that you can locate your computer in another room.
Actual Product
http://www.norenproducts.com/
Homemade Enclosure
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/juhladude/
The thing people find I think is that it helps to start with quiet parts to begin with. If you are attached to your computer, it might be worth the investment to buy a KVM switch so that you can locate your computer in another room.
I've been working at reducung noise in order to use a PC as a HT unit. The first tgool you will benefit benefit fropm is "Motherboard Monitor", freeware. It displays termperature info both for the CPU and locatin(s) on the motherboard. With that as a starting point you will be able top see the effect of slowing or disconnecting the varoius fans. Since a P4 CPU has a thermal protection circuit, it is supossed to be safe to experiment - just don't do so by writting a an important file. The CPU will, supossedly just shut down (at ~85C) before damage ocurrs.
So far I've found that some case fans are not really doing much and can be unplugged without consequence. The CPU fan is another mater but enen there, there are options, as well as with the PS.
So far I've found that some case fans are not really doing much and can be unplugged without consequence. The CPU fan is another mater but enen there, there are options, as well as with the PS.
mali_aber said:
So, let's get this straight, you don't want the suggestions that will take your NON-TOY computer and make it a more PROFESSIONAL looking/sounding computer, but rather how we can help make it look like a TOY?!?!?
The suggestions given by several people here are very good starting points and some cost little or no money. No one seemed to imply that your computer was a toy. However, I don't see how your design is going to do anything but make your computer look like a toy.
If the hard drives are the primary source of the noise, then look at ways of making them quieter. The grommet suggestion is a cheap, quick and noticeable improvement, and it won't hurt the computer, doesn't involve doing anything dangerous, and its not visible.
Why do you have such an aversion to simple suggestions? I would agree that some of the suggestions might fall under extreme, but they're alternatives to what you want to do.
As for baffle suggestions, why not look at automotive muffler designs and see how they work? Or, why not try a design and see how much it helps?
this homemade enclosure link is great, thanks mazurek. moving this computer to another room is
really great trick, but in my case - it is simply impossible.
quiet components and quiet fans in this computer are simply out of the question. besides, this
computer components make maybe even more noise than the fans. that is why only the sound
insulated enclosure/cabinet would do.
the thing is design of the sound labyrinth for the forced air - principles of the sound deadening and principles of the quiet airflow are at least - oposed. please compare this diagram http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/noise-protection/section.htm with this text: http://storeandserve.com/download/9599/quiet_desgn_of_airflow.pdf.html. in the simple words, it appears to me that there is no (easy?) way to deaden the sound and keep airflow quiet. i am sure that sound engineers resolved this matter with the great success, only problem is how to find some pictures of their work (for free, hehe).
454casul, this kind of computers looks to me as a toy http://www.mdmm.com/products/techietoyz/ and we both know that there is a whole industry "inventing things" for the gamers, case modders, and the other kids and cool guys. maybe i am wrong, but all those blue fans and computer neon lights looks to me as a "tax for fools", but that's just me.
best regards to all of you gentleman.
really great trick, but in my case - it is simply impossible.
quiet components and quiet fans in this computer are simply out of the question. besides, this
computer components make maybe even more noise than the fans. that is why only the sound
insulated enclosure/cabinet would do.
the thing is design of the sound labyrinth for the forced air - principles of the sound deadening and principles of the quiet airflow are at least - oposed. please compare this diagram http://www.carsten-buschmann.de/noise-protection/section.htm with this text: http://storeandserve.com/download/9599/quiet_desgn_of_airflow.pdf.html. in the simple words, it appears to me that there is no (easy?) way to deaden the sound and keep airflow quiet. i am sure that sound engineers resolved this matter with the great success, only problem is how to find some pictures of their work (for free, hehe).
454casul, this kind of computers looks to me as a toy http://www.mdmm.com/products/techietoyz/ and we both know that there is a whole industry "inventing things" for the gamers, case modders, and the other kids and cool guys. maybe i am wrong, but all those blue fans and computer neon lights looks to me as a "tax for fools", but that's just me.
best regards to all of you gentleman.
1100W is not a piece of cake for cooling. Your actual power consuption might be less than that, ie 300W for example. Would make things somewhat easier.
What is your hardware setup? Amount and brand of hard drives, number of CPUs etc etc?
IMHO tuned resonant cavities ala car muffler might be better than folded pipe but design is not trivial.
And with axial fans you always have problems with static pressure, maybe this is limiting more the minimium tunnel size than air velocity causing turbulence noise. 10m/s max air velocity should save you from turbulence in tunnels. With 300m2/h this results that you need around 100cm2 cross-sectional area in your tunnel, 4" round tube for example should be enough.
What is your hardware setup? Amount and brand of hard drives, number of CPUs etc etc?
IMHO tuned resonant cavities ala car muffler might be better than folded pipe but design is not trivial.
And with axial fans you always have problems with static pressure, maybe this is limiting more the minimium tunnel size than air velocity causing turbulence noise. 10m/s max air velocity should save you from turbulence in tunnels. With 300m2/h this results that you need around 100cm2 cross-sectional area in your tunnel, 4" round tube for example should be enough.
Some cars have an intake muffler consisting of a length of foam-lined flexible ducting perforated with approx 1/4 inch holes randomly spaced around the 'far' end, which is itself closed.
No idea if it would work in this application, but it's very effective at silencing engine intake roar, and would be easy to try.
No idea if it would work in this application, but it's very effective at silencing engine intake roar, and would be easy to try.
dear schaef,
thanks for your kind reply.
of course i am sure that you, like every other person on this thread, want to help me to solve this problem, and i thrully appreciate your time, efforts and willingness to share your knowledge and experience.
ok, i accept to get this straight. i did not ask for advices or experiences about insulating inside of the computer with 1/8 inch rubber or replacing computer fans because i know that would not do. that is just waste of money and time and it is not suficient for this case, and therefore i did not even mention that option.
your grommet suggestion is popular nowadays in some computer noise related groups and websites, but for sure, that little thing can not help (much). by decoupling the hard drive from the cage by grommets, one can only stop transmission of the drive's vibration to the case - and nothing else. airborn noise is still there, and manufacturer declares only hdd idle noise is less than 3.6 bells. what is manufacturers trick to conseal real level of disk's operating noise. even this 3.6bells is a lot = 36dB. 36 decibels. typical sound pressure levels of 40db is soft whisper. now, can you imagine the noise of 13 people "soft whispering? 13 harddrives x 36dB + noise of few fans?
i am not resisting tha simple sollutions just to make things more complicated. i have my reasons... just to tell you this: please do not be misslead by some articles pro hdd gromets, because if hdd is decoupled from its cage - there is no heat exchange between disk and the case. instead of operating your drive on some 30 celsious degrees, you can run it on 60 celsius (drive surface temperature) - and shorten the drive lifespan from 5 years to 2 years. it would be good to replace the drives within the manufacturer warranty, but i am sure that manufacturer or seller of those drives can and will always find some excuse - to avoid replacing the drives killed by heat, as a result of use a $0.25 grommet. in this computer, 13 drives x $365 +sh is some ammount of money for me. personally, i would be happy to have so much money just to get another drives and dump the broken ones, who cares. unfortunately, nowadays that is not within my limits, so i can not afford to play and experiment with this computer.
re:"However, I don't see how your design is going to do anything but make your computer look like a toy."
my plan was just to fit computer in the cabinet, and nothing else.
about the toys. if you care about what i think about the toys: everyone has his toys. some people have harley davidson as a toy, some people have bmw as a toy, some have cessna citation X as a toy. i have my own toys, but this computer is not my toy - its a tool. i work with it and i do not play with my tools or my work. that is why i would play with building this insulating cabinet rather than with computer.
i did think like you and i allready checked how car muffler works, (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/muffler3.htm and http://auto.howstuffworks.com/muffler4.htm) . but i afraid this particular solution requires some calculations, knowledge and experimets, which i am aware that i don't have.
that is why i came to the diy audio guys, who i believe know a lot about sound isolation and have a lot of experience with the building speaker enclosures. that is why i read your texts with the confidence and pleasure.
best regards
thanks for your kind reply.
of course i am sure that you, like every other person on this thread, want to help me to solve this problem, and i thrully appreciate your time, efforts and willingness to share your knowledge and experience.
ok, i accept to get this straight. i did not ask for advices or experiences about insulating inside of the computer with 1/8 inch rubber or replacing computer fans because i know that would not do. that is just waste of money and time and it is not suficient for this case, and therefore i did not even mention that option.
your grommet suggestion is popular nowadays in some computer noise related groups and websites, but for sure, that little thing can not help (much). by decoupling the hard drive from the cage by grommets, one can only stop transmission of the drive's vibration to the case - and nothing else. airborn noise is still there, and manufacturer declares only hdd idle noise is less than 3.6 bells. what is manufacturers trick to conseal real level of disk's operating noise. even this 3.6bells is a lot = 36dB. 36 decibels. typical sound pressure levels of 40db is soft whisper. now, can you imagine the noise of 13 people "soft whispering? 13 harddrives x 36dB + noise of few fans?
i am not resisting tha simple sollutions just to make things more complicated. i have my reasons... just to tell you this: please do not be misslead by some articles pro hdd gromets, because if hdd is decoupled from its cage - there is no heat exchange between disk and the case. instead of operating your drive on some 30 celsious degrees, you can run it on 60 celsius (drive surface temperature) - and shorten the drive lifespan from 5 years to 2 years. it would be good to replace the drives within the manufacturer warranty, but i am sure that manufacturer or seller of those drives can and will always find some excuse - to avoid replacing the drives killed by heat, as a result of use a $0.25 grommet. in this computer, 13 drives x $365 +sh is some ammount of money for me. personally, i would be happy to have so much money just to get another drives and dump the broken ones, who cares. unfortunately, nowadays that is not within my limits, so i can not afford to play and experiment with this computer.
re:"However, I don't see how your design is going to do anything but make your computer look like a toy."
my plan was just to fit computer in the cabinet, and nothing else.
about the toys. if you care about what i think about the toys: everyone has his toys. some people have harley davidson as a toy, some people have bmw as a toy, some have cessna citation X as a toy. i have my own toys, but this computer is not my toy - its a tool. i work with it and i do not play with my tools or my work. that is why i would play with building this insulating cabinet rather than with computer.
i did think like you and i allready checked how car muffler works, (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/muffler3.htm and http://auto.howstuffworks.com/muffler4.htm) . but i afraid this particular solution requires some calculations, knowledge and experimets, which i am aware that i don't have.
that is why i came to the diy audio guys, who i believe know a lot about sound isolation and have a lot of experience with the building speaker enclosures. that is why i read your texts with the confidence and pleasure.
best regards
mzzj, here is hardware setup
2x TURBO-COOL® 510 ASL
Fan Type:30-52 CFM ball-bearing
Noise: 30-44dB(A)
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=T51ASL&view=about
mb Tyan S2676UANRF (THUNDER I7525)
2x Intel Xeon 3.0EA GHz with EMT 64, 800MHz FSB, 1MB L2 Cache, HT, BX80546KG3000EA
2x passive heatsinks Coolermaster e3w nptxs 04 http://www.orbitmicro.com/products/accessories/cpu fans/E3W-NPTXS-04.htm#ordering_guide
2GB Kingston Value RAM 400MHz DDR2 ECC Registered CL3 DIMM (Kit of 2)
2x Fujitsu MAS3367NP 36GB 15K U320 1" 68pin SCSI Hard Drive system / pagefile
2x 73GB SCSI Fujitsu 15K RPM U320 8MB 68pin MAS3735NP documents / export drive
sata controller RocketRaid 1820a
8x disk drives Hitachi 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model Hitachi HDS722525VLSA80
2x DVD±R/RW CD-R/RW internal dual-layer DVD E-IDE (ATAPI) Plextor 716A
E-MU 1820 Digital Audio System
video card matrox Parhelia APVe, a PCI Express (PCIe) - no heatsinks
video capture card MatroxRT.X100 Xtreme Pro - no heatsinks
2x ipc case
power consumption (manufacturer declared / estimated):
continuous work
----------------------------
processors 2 x 103w.....206w
memory....................9w
mb.......................40w
fans.....................20w
Matrox Parhelia..........65w
Matrox rtx 100...........20w
emu 1820 sound...........18w
2x plextor dvd...........20w
sata raid controler......25w
4x scsi fujitsu..........76w
8x hitachi..............112w
============================
total...................611w
peak power / startup < 725w
power supply nominal 2x 510w (550?)
declared efficiency 70% => 714w
estimate for power loss in the power supply = 306w: mzzj, it seems you have access to my files with such good estimate, hehehe. in addition, probably computers components loose 50% of their nominal power what makes aditional 300w. so, lets say that fans have task to remove 600w of wasted, dissipitated heat. according to papst engineers diagram i put here (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/28508491144.jpg&s=x10), it takes airflow of 200m3/h to remove waste heat of 600w, with delta t = 10 degrees (temperature difference of intake / exhaust air). this made me to look at papst fan 4214 NL(119 x 119 x 38 mm) with airflow of 100 m3/h. according to previous guesstimate of wasted power, 2 fans could do the job, but i would put 3 of them for additional safety margin, what makes ideal airflow of 300m3/h. 3 fans intake + 3 fans exhaust = air pressure in the cabinet shoould be slightly negative, due to mandatorry intake air filter. in simple words, it seems that exhaust fans would do their job easier.
papst also offers temperature controlled power supply ps60 for 6 fans 110v/12-24v. (http://www.papst.de/pdf_dat_d/PS60_e.pdf) . this might not be best investment, due to temperature charactheristic of this fan controller. it slowers the fans within temperature range between 30-50 celsius, and it seems to me that cabinet inside temperature would be at least 50 celsius, so the fans would nominally work on their maximum. anyhow, this power supply is required, due to power requirement of my sellection of the fans (12-24v). i hope that german engineers are still great. to measure the temperature inside the cabinet, i would use this digital thermometer: http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebComm...IMZ4QG0RUCXFEOFCFGAK2URYWIV1?SKU=OEELT319&N=0 . its range is -20~+70 celsius, and i hope never to reach upper value - otherwise, the whole cabinet must face the fine adjustment described here: http://www.inquiry.net/images/forest1.jpg .
as far as i read about the matter of design of the resonant cavities / design of cooling air tunel for the cabinet, due to big surface of the 3 fans 340cm2 or 52 sq inch, it seems that labyrinth must have the square shape, at least 3 180 degrees turns. just how to shape / design them?
4214 NL 119 x 119 x 38 mm
Type m3/h CFM V DC V DC dB(A) Bel Watt min-1 °C
4214 NL 100 58.9 24 12...28 28 4.3 1.2 1700 -20...+70
2x TURBO-COOL® 510 ASL
Fan Type:30-52 CFM ball-bearing
Noise: 30-44dB(A)
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=T51ASL&view=about
mb Tyan S2676UANRF (THUNDER I7525)
2x Intel Xeon 3.0EA GHz with EMT 64, 800MHz FSB, 1MB L2 Cache, HT, BX80546KG3000EA
2x passive heatsinks Coolermaster e3w nptxs 04 http://www.orbitmicro.com/products/accessories/cpu fans/E3W-NPTXS-04.htm#ordering_guide
2GB Kingston Value RAM 400MHz DDR2 ECC Registered CL3 DIMM (Kit of 2)
2x Fujitsu MAS3367NP 36GB 15K U320 1" 68pin SCSI Hard Drive system / pagefile
2x 73GB SCSI Fujitsu 15K RPM U320 8MB 68pin MAS3735NP documents / export drive
sata controller RocketRaid 1820a
8x disk drives Hitachi 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model Hitachi HDS722525VLSA80
2x DVD±R/RW CD-R/RW internal dual-layer DVD E-IDE (ATAPI) Plextor 716A
E-MU 1820 Digital Audio System
video card matrox Parhelia APVe, a PCI Express (PCIe) - no heatsinks
video capture card MatroxRT.X100 Xtreme Pro - no heatsinks
2x ipc case
power consumption (manufacturer declared / estimated):
continuous work
----------------------------
processors 2 x 103w.....206w
memory....................9w
mb.......................40w
fans.....................20w
Matrox Parhelia..........65w
Matrox rtx 100...........20w
emu 1820 sound...........18w
2x plextor dvd...........20w
sata raid controler......25w
4x scsi fujitsu..........76w
8x hitachi..............112w
============================
total...................611w
peak power / startup < 725w
power supply nominal 2x 510w (550?)
declared efficiency 70% => 714w
estimate for power loss in the power supply = 306w: mzzj, it seems you have access to my files with such good estimate, hehehe. in addition, probably computers components loose 50% of their nominal power what makes aditional 300w. so, lets say that fans have task to remove 600w of wasted, dissipitated heat. according to papst engineers diagram i put here (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=10/28508491144.jpg&s=x10), it takes airflow of 200m3/h to remove waste heat of 600w, with delta t = 10 degrees (temperature difference of intake / exhaust air). this made me to look at papst fan 4214 NL(119 x 119 x 38 mm) with airflow of 100 m3/h. according to previous guesstimate of wasted power, 2 fans could do the job, but i would put 3 of them for additional safety margin, what makes ideal airflow of 300m3/h. 3 fans intake + 3 fans exhaust = air pressure in the cabinet shoould be slightly negative, due to mandatorry intake air filter. in simple words, it seems that exhaust fans would do their job easier.
papst also offers temperature controlled power supply ps60 for 6 fans 110v/12-24v. (http://www.papst.de/pdf_dat_d/PS60_e.pdf) . this might not be best investment, due to temperature charactheristic of this fan controller. it slowers the fans within temperature range between 30-50 celsius, and it seems to me that cabinet inside temperature would be at least 50 celsius, so the fans would nominally work on their maximum. anyhow, this power supply is required, due to power requirement of my sellection of the fans (12-24v). i hope that german engineers are still great. to measure the temperature inside the cabinet, i would use this digital thermometer: http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebComm...IMZ4QG0RUCXFEOFCFGAK2URYWIV1?SKU=OEELT319&N=0 . its range is -20~+70 celsius, and i hope never to reach upper value - otherwise, the whole cabinet must face the fine adjustment described here: http://www.inquiry.net/images/forest1.jpg .
as far as i read about the matter of design of the resonant cavities / design of cooling air tunel for the cabinet, due to big surface of the 3 fans 340cm2 or 52 sq inch, it seems that labyrinth must have the square shape, at least 3 180 degrees turns. just how to shape / design them?
4214 NL 119 x 119 x 38 mm
Type m3/h CFM V DC V DC dB(A) Bel Watt min-1 °C
4214 NL 100 58.9 24 12...28 28 4.3 1.2 1700 -20...+70
Hi. This is going to be a long reply.
First, that's pretty much a beast of a PC you've got there. I would image your SCSI setup is extremely noisy.
And then there's your 12 drives.... I can see it'll be tough.
First question.
The Case? Which one, can we get a look at it? I'm sorry because I didn't understand from your discussion what the case is like.
As you quiet the PC down (by whatever means) it will become hotter. There's really not much you can do about it. So let's first focus on how to keep temeperatures sane.
If I'm not mistaken the Xeon Power figures are not power consumption figures, but dissipation figures. So 200 Watts comes from there itself.
There are ways to make your drives quieter, but they're not cheap. You can find watercooled drive enclosures, and though they'll keep the drive noise out of the system and the drive cool enough, 12 of those will not come cheap.
Your CPU has passive coolers.
Though that's good, when you have passive cooling airflow becomes critical and a separated PC become a bit impractical, to keep both heat and noise out.
I am of course assuming you have air conditioning and the ambient temperatures are proper. Then this would be my solution for the heat part of it.
First duct out the enclosures. You will need at least three intake ducts and one exhaust, only one exhaust will help you plan and channel the airflow. In such a case you can get away with one or two 120 mm fas doing only exhaust duty.
One intake duct should be for the CPU, one for the main system board and components, and one for the drives. Doing this will require some innovation. If you want to keep the heat path separate then planning becomes more complex. Leakage reduces airflow efficiency. It's really not that much different for planning a speaker or amp circuit, the variables change but objectives remain similar. Cool in, hot out. We have to plan the most effective path for them.
Ok back again. Once the air is nice and hot we need to get it out of the enclosure. The most effective exhaust is a chimney (No, really!) and some people have done this out of cereal boxes. If you want it to be really professional, get one made of AC ducting material. Will be butch to look at!! Heat can be taken off the back or the top. As you porbably know, longer chimneys are more effective if properly designed.
Intake ducting should be from the coolest point. Some people intake from just outside the case, you can duct to an AC and some people duct directly to outside (of the house) air. The principle behind ducting is to provide air which has not been heated up by neighbouring parts, to parts that really get the hottest. Implementing this will depend on the environment.
BTW well-planned airflow over the drives will keep them cool. I have my 4 drives mounted in plastic cases and 7 volted fans running on two of them, they stay well in the high 30s and low 40s. The other two drives are only cooled by passive airflow from the power supply (mounted on the top bays of the case) and are even lower in temp. I also have a Seagate 40 GB disk in a very claustrophobic case running at 50 degrees+ 24/7, and it's a 5 year old drive.
This should get you started on keeping it cool.
To keep it quiet, unfortunately you have less options. I would imagine the two 510 watt supplies (I think they're 510, not 550) be making most of the noise, and drive access would also be noisy. Not to mention four SCSI drives spinning at 10000 rpm minimum.
AVID solve this problem by providing external SCSI drives, I think with their own cooling systems. Seek noise is an issue but spin noise is not. To build a fully dead and damp enclosure a spectral analysis of the current noise profile of the PC will help. You will be able spot problem frequencies. I suspect most of the noise will be in the 800Hz-3 KHz range. Not nice or even easy to damp.
Then you build a box-within-a-box. People have used wood, acrylic, leather, etc. with success. It needs to be able to damp the sound. If going for harder materials like wood and glass, the vibrations will have to be damped even more. An air gap works the best. We're isolating the sound here. Any holes for cables and connectors have to be planned well, with rubber grommets. A lot of car audio stores will have good isolation material.
Then take a second analysis, you'll be able to figure out if there are any problem devices still left, then treat accordingly.
After all this, how will you access your burners? You should put those into external configuration in cases.
To summarise device by device:
1. Disks: Isolation of drives vibration from the case really helps. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. This specially helps seek noise, most of which is sympathetic vibration of HDD cage. Good alternatives are watercooled drive enclosures (which then fit into 5.25" bays). Some companies sell drive cages that provide for a 80 mm fan on the drive. This when run at 7 V (obtained by tapping the yellow and red wires on a molex) provides outstanding drive cooling and no additional noise. There are AAM tricks but those will cut your performance. Whether you can or cannot accept the penalty you should decide only after trying them out.
2. CPU: Passive coolers - Can't get quieter than that. Once you put the PC into its soundproof enclosure they'll get hotter. You have to determine if that is going to be a problem. Your bigger issue is you have a lot of heat sources and since the drives are in the front of the enclosure, they will be heating up the air nicely for your CPU etc. I would urge you to cosider ducting to keep them cool. A low-noise active cooler (I am not aware of models because I never go near Intel CPUs, but a good one for AMD is the XP-120 with a nice Papst running at 7V) will not significantly raise the noise level, while keeping the CPUs cooler, raising the margin you have to play with other things.
3. System (Mobo, Cards and Memory): Once you provide ducts, the system temperature should automatically drop some. Then you can probably slow down the fans a bit. Even though you've specifically asked us not to, I would still suggest you try some quiet fans. I doubt you'll lose too much in the cooling area, and only get a quieter PC. Please do by all means build your box, but this will also be worth a try.
4. Opticals: Get them out of the case. Also don't keep media in them unless in use, for they really make a racket when in spin cycle.
5. Power Supply: I don't know how quiet your supplies are. You'll have to switch them on without anything connected to figure out how much noise they're making. They will need a good supply of fresh air and a decent exhaust space.
First, that's pretty much a beast of a PC you've got there. I would image your SCSI setup is extremely noisy.
And then there's your 12 drives.... I can see it'll be tough.
First question.
The Case? Which one, can we get a look at it? I'm sorry because I didn't understand from your discussion what the case is like.
As you quiet the PC down (by whatever means) it will become hotter. There's really not much you can do about it. So let's first focus on how to keep temeperatures sane.
If I'm not mistaken the Xeon Power figures are not power consumption figures, but dissipation figures. So 200 Watts comes from there itself.
There are ways to make your drives quieter, but they're not cheap. You can find watercooled drive enclosures, and though they'll keep the drive noise out of the system and the drive cool enough, 12 of those will not come cheap.
Your CPU has passive coolers.
Though that's good, when you have passive cooling airflow becomes critical and a separated PC become a bit impractical, to keep both heat and noise out.
I am of course assuming you have air conditioning and the ambient temperatures are proper. Then this would be my solution for the heat part of it.
First duct out the enclosures. You will need at least three intake ducts and one exhaust, only one exhaust will help you plan and channel the airflow. In such a case you can get away with one or two 120 mm fas doing only exhaust duty.
One intake duct should be for the CPU, one for the main system board and components, and one for the drives. Doing this will require some innovation. If you want to keep the heat path separate then planning becomes more complex. Leakage reduces airflow efficiency. It's really not that much different for planning a speaker or amp circuit, the variables change but objectives remain similar. Cool in, hot out. We have to plan the most effective path for them.
Ok back again. Once the air is nice and hot we need to get it out of the enclosure. The most effective exhaust is a chimney (No, really!) and some people have done this out of cereal boxes. If you want it to be really professional, get one made of AC ducting material. Will be butch to look at!! Heat can be taken off the back or the top. As you porbably know, longer chimneys are more effective if properly designed.
Intake ducting should be from the coolest point. Some people intake from just outside the case, you can duct to an AC and some people duct directly to outside (of the house) air. The principle behind ducting is to provide air which has not been heated up by neighbouring parts, to parts that really get the hottest. Implementing this will depend on the environment.
BTW well-planned airflow over the drives will keep them cool. I have my 4 drives mounted in plastic cases and 7 volted fans running on two of them, they stay well in the high 30s and low 40s. The other two drives are only cooled by passive airflow from the power supply (mounted on the top bays of the case) and are even lower in temp. I also have a Seagate 40 GB disk in a very claustrophobic case running at 50 degrees+ 24/7, and it's a 5 year old drive.
This should get you started on keeping it cool.
To keep it quiet, unfortunately you have less options. I would imagine the two 510 watt supplies (I think they're 510, not 550) be making most of the noise, and drive access would also be noisy. Not to mention four SCSI drives spinning at 10000 rpm minimum.
AVID solve this problem by providing external SCSI drives, I think with their own cooling systems. Seek noise is an issue but spin noise is not. To build a fully dead and damp enclosure a spectral analysis of the current noise profile of the PC will help. You will be able spot problem frequencies. I suspect most of the noise will be in the 800Hz-3 KHz range. Not nice or even easy to damp.
Then you build a box-within-a-box. People have used wood, acrylic, leather, etc. with success. It needs to be able to damp the sound. If going for harder materials like wood and glass, the vibrations will have to be damped even more. An air gap works the best. We're isolating the sound here. Any holes for cables and connectors have to be planned well, with rubber grommets. A lot of car audio stores will have good isolation material.
Then take a second analysis, you'll be able to figure out if there are any problem devices still left, then treat accordingly.
After all this, how will you access your burners? You should put those into external configuration in cases.
To summarise device by device:
1. Disks: Isolation of drives vibration from the case really helps. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. This specially helps seek noise, most of which is sympathetic vibration of HDD cage. Good alternatives are watercooled drive enclosures (which then fit into 5.25" bays). Some companies sell drive cages that provide for a 80 mm fan on the drive. This when run at 7 V (obtained by tapping the yellow and red wires on a molex) provides outstanding drive cooling and no additional noise. There are AAM tricks but those will cut your performance. Whether you can or cannot accept the penalty you should decide only after trying them out.
2. CPU: Passive coolers - Can't get quieter than that. Once you put the PC into its soundproof enclosure they'll get hotter. You have to determine if that is going to be a problem. Your bigger issue is you have a lot of heat sources and since the drives are in the front of the enclosure, they will be heating up the air nicely for your CPU etc. I would urge you to cosider ducting to keep them cool. A low-noise active cooler (I am not aware of models because I never go near Intel CPUs, but a good one for AMD is the XP-120 with a nice Papst running at 7V) will not significantly raise the noise level, while keeping the CPUs cooler, raising the margin you have to play with other things.
3. System (Mobo, Cards and Memory): Once you provide ducts, the system temperature should automatically drop some. Then you can probably slow down the fans a bit. Even though you've specifically asked us not to, I would still suggest you try some quiet fans. I doubt you'll lose too much in the cooling area, and only get a quieter PC. Please do by all means build your box, but this will also be worth a try.
4. Opticals: Get them out of the case. Also don't keep media in them unless in use, for they really make a racket when in spin cycle.
5. Power Supply: I don't know how quiet your supplies are. You'll have to switch them on without anything connected to figure out how much noise they're making. They will need a good supply of fresh air and a decent exhaust space.
hi sangram, thanks for great reply.
let me try to answer your questions.
this is the current case: http://www.directron.com/pc76.html
when i gather enough info on diy building this sound insulating enclosure, i will replace the current case with ipc rackmounted chassis:
computer
http://www.plinkusa.net/web4066x.htm
hard disk array
http://www.rackmountmaster.com/rm-4155-19--4u-rack-mount-case.html
wattage figures are manufacturer declared power consumption for continuous work. only estimated figures are for mb, sound card and dvd's. so, 2 xeons use max 2x103w. how much of that energy they use for computing - one can find here: http://users.erols.com/chare/elec.htm . according to this web source, my processors use 2x 87w Thermal Design Power (whatever it is) and 101W Max
Processor Power. one can tell that by "touch measuring system". only hitachi declares dissipitation for this drives of 6 wats per drive.
there is a air conditioning system, but it cools whole house. therefore it is not possible to rely on its supply of cold air, because that system maintains temperature in the house - disregrding what is going on with temperature in the computer. small, cheap window air conditioner conected to the computer air intake by washer/dryer air duct would be very practical sollution, and maybe possible in very dry climates like a dessert, but it won't solve the main problem - noise, and it most likey would create new problems like condensation. besides, small window unit would make much more noise than any computer, and whole point is missed. phenomenon of condensation occurs when cold thing is brought into warm room. electronics is particularry sensitive on this, so i would avoid direct contact of an air conditioned air lets say of 21 celsius with hard drives of 40 celsius. where i live right now, climate is very humid, and summers are so hot, winters are frozen, so condensation is something i see every morning on my car, and something i don't want to see on my comuter.
you are right, those power supplies are noisiest parts of the computer, and according to the manufacturer, they generate noise 30-44dB. replacing their fans is out of the question, because they need airflow to operate within their normal range. quiet fan = lower airflow. when/if new cabinet does its job, there will be no need for slower/quieter fans.
spectral analysys of the computer noise... i have tried that, just for fun. i simply recorded how my computer sounds and then i used programs Spectrogram 12 and SpectrumPlay to see what happens. results? spectrum showed results, but i forgot the numbers and i dont have that recording any more. some people did much better job than me, and they came up with this chart of spectrum of frequencies and noise levels of some amd pc: http://www.plasmic.dk/cocoon/en/datasheet.php
Primary Frequency of HDD Vibrations
RPM Frequency (Hz)
4,200 70
5,400 90
7,200 120
10,000 167
15,000 250
avid systems with external drives enclosures i did work with were very noisy. that is why many users put them into sound insulated cabinet. thatis what i would try to build, here are some pics. (well, if i could only understand how to upload pics here???)
let me try to answer your questions.
this is the current case: http://www.directron.com/pc76.html
when i gather enough info on diy building this sound insulating enclosure, i will replace the current case with ipc rackmounted chassis:
computer
http://www.plinkusa.net/web4066x.htm
hard disk array
http://www.rackmountmaster.com/rm-4155-19--4u-rack-mount-case.html
wattage figures are manufacturer declared power consumption for continuous work. only estimated figures are for mb, sound card and dvd's. so, 2 xeons use max 2x103w. how much of that energy they use for computing - one can find here: http://users.erols.com/chare/elec.htm . according to this web source, my processors use 2x 87w Thermal Design Power (whatever it is) and 101W Max
Processor Power. one can tell that by "touch measuring system". only hitachi declares dissipitation for this drives of 6 wats per drive.
there is a air conditioning system, but it cools whole house. therefore it is not possible to rely on its supply of cold air, because that system maintains temperature in the house - disregrding what is going on with temperature in the computer. small, cheap window air conditioner conected to the computer air intake by washer/dryer air duct would be very practical sollution, and maybe possible in very dry climates like a dessert, but it won't solve the main problem - noise, and it most likey would create new problems like condensation. besides, small window unit would make much more noise than any computer, and whole point is missed. phenomenon of condensation occurs when cold thing is brought into warm room. electronics is particularry sensitive on this, so i would avoid direct contact of an air conditioned air lets say of 21 celsius with hard drives of 40 celsius. where i live right now, climate is very humid, and summers are so hot, winters are frozen, so condensation is something i see every morning on my car, and something i don't want to see on my comuter.
you are right, those power supplies are noisiest parts of the computer, and according to the manufacturer, they generate noise 30-44dB. replacing their fans is out of the question, because they need airflow to operate within their normal range. quiet fan = lower airflow. when/if new cabinet does its job, there will be no need for slower/quieter fans.
spectral analysys of the computer noise... i have tried that, just for fun. i simply recorded how my computer sounds and then i used programs Spectrogram 12 and SpectrumPlay to see what happens. results? spectrum showed results, but i forgot the numbers and i dont have that recording any more. some people did much better job than me, and they came up with this chart of spectrum of frequencies and noise levels of some amd pc: http://www.plasmic.dk/cocoon/en/datasheet.php
Primary Frequency of HDD Vibrations
RPM Frequency (Hz)
4,200 70
5,400 90
7,200 120
10,000 167
15,000 250
avid systems with external drives enclosures i did work with were very noisy. that is why many users put them into sound insulated cabinet. thatis what i would try to build, here are some pics. (well, if i could only understand how to upload pics here???)
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