Re: pass aleph j
"I had and have no intentions of selling for profit."
Very honorable.
ddpi2001 said:
"I had and have no intentions of selling for profit."
Very honorable.
They're here; Tim Rawson, Rawsonte, and troystg, he is watching this thread, and has made a comment. Having flown under the radar to this point we'll see if he feels comfortable continuing the use of Nelson Pass designs in the future.
r
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KevinHeem said:
Lets be clear, in my post I simply told ddpi2001 that he was doing the right thing in not looking to profit from his project / product.
I am in no way involved or related to this issue other than to back Mr. Pass and assist in any way possible.
While I have made some clarifying statements regarding policy in the past,
I don't think they reveal my true motivation.
Sure, the odd kitchen entrepreneur makes a knockoff of one of my designs.
The problem is that he uses my trademarks to promote the sale.
Does this cost me the sale of an amplifier because the customer bought the
knock-off? Probably not.
What it costs me is the ability to market through quality distribution in many
places because distributors look at the knock-offs as degrading the value of
the original in the marketplace. The good distributor in Asia or Europe and
even the good dealer in the U.S. will complain that business is tough enough
without this additional obstacle.
They of course point to an easy solution - stop publishing the schematics.
😎
“Who steals my purse, steals trash, but he that filches from me my good
name robs me of that which not enriches him and makes me poor indeed.”
- Shakespeare
I don't think they reveal my true motivation.
Sure, the odd kitchen entrepreneur makes a knockoff of one of my designs.
The problem is that he uses my trademarks to promote the sale.
Does this cost me the sale of an amplifier because the customer bought the
knock-off? Probably not.
What it costs me is the ability to market through quality distribution in many
places because distributors look at the knock-offs as degrading the value of
the original in the marketplace. The good distributor in Asia or Europe and
even the good dealer in the U.S. will complain that business is tough enough
without this additional obstacle.
They of course point to an easy solution - stop publishing the schematics.
😎
“Who steals my purse, steals trash, but he that filches from me my good
name robs me of that which not enriches him and makes me poor indeed.”
- Shakespeare
Mr. Pass,
That brings another issue. There have been recent requests from forum members for more F3/F4 boards. That certainly creates easy opportunity for more knock off amps in a markeplace.
If for any reason you feel it interferes with your trademark, I will not support those requests.
That brings another issue. There have been recent requests from forum members for more F3/F4 boards. That certainly creates easy opportunity for more knock off amps in a markeplace.
If for any reason you feel it interferes with your trademark, I will not support those requests.
Peter Daniel said:
I appreciate the consideration. Let me think about it to see if we can come
up with an acceptable solution.
😎
Loved the Shakespeare quote, Mr. Pass
But the point at the end of your comment is exactly what I fear. I started off studying the Lindsay-Hood amp, but virtually everything I've learned about Class A amps has come from your published designs, going all the way back to Audio Amateur. You are perhaps the only person of genuine "SOTA" commercial design stature who shows us how things are done at the no-compromise level. I think the overwhelmingly negative response to the so-called "Rawlson Rip-offs" means a lot of people feel the way I do, and are willing to land like a pallet of SE transformers on anyone who ignores the "not for commercial use without permission" legend on a schematic.
Mr. Rawlson, I hope you read the above. There is no conceivable reason to attach the word "Pass" to anything you make unless you are trying to capitalize on someone else's design and reputation. Why not just make whatever you think you can sell without mentioning that, Aleph, Son of Zen or any other term associated with Nelson Pass's work? If your units can stand on their own merits, you shouldn't need to put someone else's name or nomenclature on them. That's true whether you are selling the units for profit or to pay for a cancer treatment.
But the point at the end of your comment is exactly what I fear. I started off studying the Lindsay-Hood amp, but virtually everything I've learned about Class A amps has come from your published designs, going all the way back to Audio Amateur. You are perhaps the only person of genuine "SOTA" commercial design stature who shows us how things are done at the no-compromise level. I think the overwhelmingly negative response to the so-called "Rawlson Rip-offs" means a lot of people feel the way I do, and are willing to land like a pallet of SE transformers on anyone who ignores the "not for commercial use without permission" legend on a schematic.
Mr. Rawlson, I hope you read the above. There is no conceivable reason to attach the word "Pass" to anything you make unless you are trying to capitalize on someone else's design and reputation. Why not just make whatever you think you can sell without mentioning that, Aleph, Son of Zen or any other term associated with Nelson Pass's work? If your units can stand on their own merits, you shouldn't need to put someone else's name or nomenclature on them. That's true whether you are selling the units for profit or to pay for a cancer treatment.
Nelson Pass said:
Nelson, One thought is perhaps limit GB's to 1 or 2 pairs of boards and maybe only to known users.
-David
Troystg, I feel I owe you an apology, I should have spoken to you privately and not included you in that post.
Open Source Example
I was thinking of a way to protect Nelson's IP so that he can feel more secure in putting his ideas out for DIYers who do not want to profit from his designs.
Using the Open Source Software community model, is it possible to setup a legal document that says: You have the right (priviledge) to use this DIY schematic, PCB or kit for private use. It is free to be modified or "improved" and shared with the DIY community. The schematic, kit or modifications cannot be sold for profit and the trademark Pass, First Watt or Pass Labs cannot be used without the express permission under agreement of Nelson Pass or Pass Labs.
In order for this to work, PassDIY.com needs to add the disclaimer- that by downloading the schematic or purchasing this kit, you will follow the rules outlined above.
The statement should be inserted in all PDFs or documents that are downloaded.
I know there are probably some holes in this, but maybe someone more knowledgeable than me in these matters can lock this up better.
I know Pass Labs is a trademark and it's all over the schematics and boards, but I think it needs to be spelled out for some people.
Vince
I was thinking of a way to protect Nelson's IP so that he can feel more secure in putting his ideas out for DIYers who do not want to profit from his designs.
Using the Open Source Software community model, is it possible to setup a legal document that says: You have the right (priviledge) to use this DIY schematic, PCB or kit for private use. It is free to be modified or "improved" and shared with the DIY community. The schematic, kit or modifications cannot be sold for profit and the trademark Pass, First Watt or Pass Labs cannot be used without the express permission under agreement of Nelson Pass or Pass Labs.
In order for this to work, PassDIY.com needs to add the disclaimer- that by downloading the schematic or purchasing this kit, you will follow the rules outlined above.
The statement should be inserted in all PDFs or documents that are downloaded.
I know there are probably some holes in this, but maybe someone more knowledgeable than me in these matters can lock this up better.
I know Pass Labs is a trademark and it's all over the schematics and boards, but I think it needs to be spelled out for some people.
Vince
jacco vermeulen said:
No appology needed. As Jacco meant to say , nobody takes me serious anyway...
But I am adamant that people who HELP should never be taken advantage of.
Mr. Pass DEFINITELY falls in that category.
Can you believe it? The dude is at it again.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?WORD=Rawson&FOCUS=EXY&CTGSK=ANY&submit=Search
Look at the construction of his "premium" Aleph5. None of the connector holes are correct, and everything is oversized or crooked. It's hilarious, the A60 premium is being sold since it "Does not have enough gain for his CD player". Blame the design rather than the construction quality.
My favorite might be the B1 clone with old fence lumber for the box sides.
I've never sold a DIY project, and if I did it would be to someone here as a parts mule.
Tim Rawson, or whom ever you are, we know you read these forums.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?WORD=Rawson&FOCUS=EXY&CTGSK=ANY&submit=Search
Look at the construction of his "premium" Aleph5. None of the connector holes are correct, and everything is oversized or crooked. It's hilarious, the A60 premium is being sold since it "Does not have enough gain for his CD player". Blame the design rather than the construction quality.
My favorite might be the B1 clone with old fence lumber for the box sides.
I've never sold a DIY project, and if I did it would be to someone here as a parts mule.
Tim Rawson, or whom ever you are, we know you read these forums.
I doesn't look good. While I'm not against selling DIY projects (usually it doesn't even cover the parts cost ) to found another project this one really looks like money oriented activity.
I wonder who is protecting 47 Labs with their "gain and phono "series of products? I think their financial loses because of DIYaudio.com are pretty significant not to mention that some probably profit from clones too.
I just borrowed one "gainclone" -ummm pretty good, have to knock myself one or more too.
I wonder who is protecting 47 Labs with their "gain and phono "series of products? I think their financial loses because of DIYaudio.com are pretty significant not to mention that some probably profit from clones too.
I just borrowed one "gainclone" -ummm pretty good, have to knock myself one or more too.
Damn
I forgot that I still have PCB of Pass Zen or son of zen single ended mosfet amp which appeared in Polisch DIY magazine in late 90's
I had two sets and the one I assembled didn't last long (burned out pretty quick😉 I didn't have speakers to drive them with 2W but I bi-amped with SS AB on bass and Pass "Zen something" on ribbon tweeter and it was sooo sweet and detailed sounding that when I moved to US I took boards with me to put that amp together . Then , I got lost in SET tube amps and horns 😀 and never looked back at SS designs but the gaiclone today and memory of single Mosfet Pass amp may change my mind .
Regards, l
I forgot that I still have PCB of Pass Zen or son of zen single ended mosfet amp which appeared in Polisch DIY magazine in late 90's
I had two sets and the one I assembled didn't last long (burned out pretty quick😉 I didn't have speakers to drive them with 2W but I bi-amped with SS AB on bass and Pass "Zen something" on ribbon tweeter and it was sooo sweet and detailed sounding that when I moved to US I took boards with me to put that amp together . Then , I got lost in SET tube amps and horns 😀 and never looked back at SS designs but the gaiclone today and memory of single Mosfet Pass amp may change my mind .
Regards, l
I recently built an Aleph P1.7 and posted on audiogon for sale since I wanted to fund other projects. the price is all the cost of the parts/hardware that went into it.
out of respect for Mr. Pass, I would glady remove the ad from audiogon. my question is, I guess mainly for Mr. Pass, can we sell a single item that we built to fund other projects or this also is not acceptable? as much as we would like to keep all our projects, I think most of us are very limited with our budgets. recylcing funds for future projects.
thx.
I wish Mr. Pass and everyone a HAPPY 20009 NEW YEAR!
May it be a healthy, succesful, and joyful one to ALL.
out of respect for Mr. Pass, I would glady remove the ad from audiogon. my question is, I guess mainly for Mr. Pass, can we sell a single item that we built to fund other projects or this also is not acceptable? as much as we would like to keep all our projects, I think most of us are very limited with our budgets. recylcing funds for future projects.
thx.
I wish Mr. Pass and everyone a HAPPY 20009 NEW YEAR!
May it be a healthy, succesful, and joyful one to ALL.
Just sent Audiogon a letter:
"I have been a long time member of your forums and have been in the fortunate position to have traded several items over the years. I am also an avid DIY enthusiast. Recently there has been controversy over one of your members who makes a profit / living selling Nelson Pass clones on your website. The ongoing illegal practices of Tim Rawson (in this case Tubeears58, Jdubs, Lcherepkai) or what ever handle he is currently using is distressing to all who believe in the sanctity of intellectual copy rights. This is just a brief listing of some of the items currently for sale on A’gon
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?WORD=Rawson&FOCUS=EXY&CTGSK=ANY&submit=Search
And this is the thread currently on DIY Audio where Nelson pass himself chimes in:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133067&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Is there nothing you can do to stop this type of illegal activity continuing on your website? There are many instances where organizations that act as gateways for improper conduct have been held accountable. We have all come to expect an extremely high standard from Audiogon as a relatively safe place to exchange audio gear. It would be a shame for the criminal activities of a few people to ruin it for the rest of us.
Regards
Neil Kaye"
"I have been a long time member of your forums and have been in the fortunate position to have traded several items over the years. I am also an avid DIY enthusiast. Recently there has been controversy over one of your members who makes a profit / living selling Nelson Pass clones on your website. The ongoing illegal practices of Tim Rawson (in this case Tubeears58, Jdubs, Lcherepkai) or what ever handle he is currently using is distressing to all who believe in the sanctity of intellectual copy rights. This is just a brief listing of some of the items currently for sale on A’gon
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?WORD=Rawson&FOCUS=EXY&CTGSK=ANY&submit=Search
And this is the thread currently on DIY Audio where Nelson pass himself chimes in:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133067&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Is there nothing you can do to stop this type of illegal activity continuing on your website? There are many instances where organizations that act as gateways for improper conduct have been held accountable. We have all come to expect an extremely high standard from Audiogon as a relatively safe place to exchange audio gear. It would be a shame for the criminal activities of a few people to ruin it for the rest of us.
Regards
Neil Kaye"
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