Hello there.
Ive been making dance music for quite a while. easily 10years plus.
over the past ten years im sure ive had maybe a dozen different sets of speakers, some mine, some not, that ive produced on. each giving me a different sound when playing them on the big PA system i own.
what i want, is to have a set of speakers that when i listen to them, is to sound like the ones that get used to enjoy the final product. not necessarily as loud, but have similar bass response, and impact.
heres what i have at the moment. its not satisfactory, but i have been dealing with it, making excuses, even to the point of fitting an EQ to try and get it to sound "right" but it just doesnt do it for me.
uppers are Sony: SS-DP800AVW and the lowers are JVC: SP-UXGD6S
i just played in the Foamcore thread and made a basic horn via hornresp using a quadlet of 70mm LG drivers that ended up sounding pretty nice, specifically to be portable for when i take my laptop out and about to play tunes.
heres the guts,
and the response based on Tangband driver specs,
so. figuring ive had a pretty good run with drawing up horns that sound decent and model well, i decided to find a set of drivers i thought "looked" good, at a reasonable price (to me) and sim very similar to what my PA bass horns do. (SS15 w/JB1500N)
heres the results with one driver obviously, both sims on 1w for reference, grey trace being the SS15.
so on paper, they look like they will sound similar frequency response wise, and its good that they both have similar cut off, coz it means i wont be producing below the SS15's usable range.
so, the horn is huge. only once i started trying to draw it out did i realise its pure size. now, size in this instance isnt a big issue for my workspace. but it does need to sit on the table i use.
but heres my dilemma.
i want it to be stereo, and have the drivers facing me. but, two of this horn, will just be too big.
what im visioning, is a tall, wide, thin upright horn, with the mouth facing up against a brick wall (no ceiling, just open rafters) sitting on my computer table, behind my laptop.
or, a low, wide deep box, making it effectively a taller table. drivers facing up, mouth hitting my belly.
my main question, is a horn the right cab for me to build to use as a reference speaker, or should i focus on some more basic BR cabs, using different/smaller drivers?
and second main Q, if i fill a horn designed for one driver, with two, will it make the result dramatically different ?
Ive been making dance music for quite a while. easily 10years plus.
over the past ten years im sure ive had maybe a dozen different sets of speakers, some mine, some not, that ive produced on. each giving me a different sound when playing them on the big PA system i own.
what i want, is to have a set of speakers that when i listen to them, is to sound like the ones that get used to enjoy the final product. not necessarily as loud, but have similar bass response, and impact.
heres what i have at the moment. its not satisfactory, but i have been dealing with it, making excuses, even to the point of fitting an EQ to try and get it to sound "right" but it just doesnt do it for me.
uppers are Sony: SS-DP800AVW and the lowers are JVC: SP-UXGD6S
i just played in the Foamcore thread and made a basic horn via hornresp using a quadlet of 70mm LG drivers that ended up sounding pretty nice, specifically to be portable for when i take my laptop out and about to play tunes.
heres the guts,
and the response based on Tangband driver specs,
so. figuring ive had a pretty good run with drawing up horns that sound decent and model well, i decided to find a set of drivers i thought "looked" good, at a reasonable price (to me) and sim very similar to what my PA bass horns do. (SS15 w/JB1500N)
heres the results with one driver obviously, both sims on 1w for reference, grey trace being the SS15.
so on paper, they look like they will sound similar frequency response wise, and its good that they both have similar cut off, coz it means i wont be producing below the SS15's usable range.
so, the horn is huge. only once i started trying to draw it out did i realise its pure size. now, size in this instance isnt a big issue for my workspace. but it does need to sit on the table i use.
but heres my dilemma.
i want it to be stereo, and have the drivers facing me. but, two of this horn, will just be too big.
what im visioning, is a tall, wide, thin upright horn, with the mouth facing up against a brick wall (no ceiling, just open rafters) sitting on my computer table, behind my laptop.
or, a low, wide deep box, making it effectively a taller table. drivers facing up, mouth hitting my belly.
my main question, is a horn the right cab for me to build to use as a reference speaker, or should i focus on some more basic BR cabs, using different/smaller drivers?
and second main Q, if i fill a horn designed for one driver, with two, will it make the result dramatically different ?
Klampy,
I like your new thread. So you want to go multi-way now? Have you given up on trying to do the reference monitor with a full ranger? I think one of the mass loaded transmission line designs using a 4 in Tang Band would be an ideal reference monitor if you need flat response down to 50 Hz. Check out Bjorn Johanessen's sims of the Tabaq design, that thing is flat as a board.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/88787-tabaq-tl-tang-band.html
I don't think I have yet to see another single driver design that is this flat. Granted, you will have buy some drivers but they are cheap, you can have good success with a circa $20 3 inch driver even. However, you will need to buy the BSC coil and resistor and that adds some. Bjorn is very helpful, if you have TS params for your driver, he will probably run a sim for you so you can customize your cabinet for your driver.
The folded Tabaq might be the perfect near field monitor you are looking for.
I like your new thread. So you want to go multi-way now? Have you given up on trying to do the reference monitor with a full ranger? I think one of the mass loaded transmission line designs using a 4 in Tang Band would be an ideal reference monitor if you need flat response down to 50 Hz. Check out Bjorn Johanessen's sims of the Tabaq design, that thing is flat as a board.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/88787-tabaq-tl-tang-band.html
I don't think I have yet to see another single driver design that is this flat. Granted, you will have buy some drivers but they are cheap, you can have good success with a circa $20 3 inch driver even. However, you will need to buy the BSC coil and resistor and that adds some. Bjorn is very helpful, if you have TS params for your driver, he will probably run a sim for you so you can customize your cabinet for your driver.
The folded Tabaq might be the perfect near field monitor you are looking for.
Thanks Xrk, im not sure i ever wanted to specifically run with a full range speaker, always sorta knew that id need a mid sized woofer with a higher frequency driver to suit.
my main issue is keeping it somewhat small, so i dont **** off the neighbours when i want to turn it up to see how im sounding, yet be loud and impacting when i do.
ill suss out the Tabaq, something about it just doesnt seem right to me..
ill re-read it.
thanks again
my main issue is keeping it somewhat small, so i dont **** off the neighbours when i want to turn it up to see how im sounding, yet be loud and impacting when i do.
ill suss out the Tabaq, something about it just doesnt seem right to me..
ill re-read it.
thanks again
after reading that thread, seems theres plenty of people happy with them, so thats good, but theyre very tall, and probably wouldnt be good to sit on my desk unless i layed them over on the sides....
also, i still want to use my Alpine Etype 4inch coaxials, but Alpine dont have the specs for them... buggers.
also, i still want to use my Alpine Etype 4inch coaxials, but Alpine dont have the specs for them... buggers.
Further in the thread is the folded version. Much more desktop friendly. And you can take it further and fold it into a cube like I did.
But... does that have anything to do with the goal of sounding like the "big PA system" the OP owns? That system may not be very flat at all.
Huh. While I admire your creativity and ambition, I think you've come up with a far too complicated of a solution to your needs. Have you looked at the group delay in that horn design? Seriously? Youve basicly built a bose wave radio, which is cool, but certainly not a studio monitor.
IMHO, there are two reasonable routes to take on this:
1. Buy a used pair of high efficiency studio monitors.
2. Build a proven and well documented pair of high efficiency speakers that will be effective as a monitor. I would highly recommend a pair of econowaves, because they are basicly a PA speaker. I like the econowave DSP variant, but I would do it with a eminence Delta-12LFC for better bass extension, in about 100-120L ported tuned to 25 hz, with time alignment and 1st order crossovers on the minidsp. They will get plenty loud with modest power near field, and have great bass extension.
http://gainphile.blogspot.com/2010/11/s15-econowave-dsp.html
IMHO, there are two reasonable routes to take on this:
1. Buy a used pair of high efficiency studio monitors.
2. Build a proven and well documented pair of high efficiency speakers that will be effective as a monitor. I would highly recommend a pair of econowaves, because they are basicly a PA speaker. I like the econowave DSP variant, but I would do it with a eminence Delta-12LFC for better bass extension, in about 100-120L ported tuned to 25 hz, with time alignment and 1st order crossovers on the minidsp. They will get plenty loud with modest power near field, and have great bass extension.
http://gainphile.blogspot.com/2010/11/s15-econowave-dsp.html
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You can't use 1st order filters in an econowave. The crossover needs to be ~1800Hz at an absolute minimum, and the waveguide loses control around 1000Hz.
It shouldn't be a problem if they are being used near field at moderate volumes. And regardless, with the MiniDSP it can be set up any way you want. I would bet money it sounds better (transparent) with 1st order crossovers - having time correction and phase correct crossovers makes makes a much bigger difference in sound than radiation pattern, frequency response (within reason) or less than optimal driver response out of passband.
More than you would ever want to know about 1st order crossovers in this kind of speaker...
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3848958&postcount=11296
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I'll take that bet. Dismissing radiation pattern in a constant directivity design? You might as well be dismissing bass response in a subwoofer. In any case, you wouldn't be able to get true acoustic 1st order phase coherence like you're imagining. You'd get some kind of crude psuedo-2nd order, and it will sound awful below the waveguide cutoff. Try and build one, then recommend it. Okay, I'll acknowledge there's no risk if you're using DSP 😉.
Very few people have actually heard 1st order crossovers, and I think you'd find it very suprising how irrelevant a tweeter's response is at 1500 Hz or a woofer's at 3000hz on a 2000hz crossover. Sure, you might get a little chop in the FR, but the payoff in a time aligned speaker is huge.
Oh, and as a side note, I would be more than happy to state that time correction and phase correct crossovers will make a bigger difference in the implementation of a subwoofer, than flat frequency response (aka bass response).
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I think you're missing the point. The HF response on a waveguide like that already has a way steeper rolloff than 1st order. You'd have to apply some 25dB+ lower midrange boost instead of a high pass to achieve 1st order response.
Hi,
The point of a pair of monitor quality speakers is not to sound like a cut down PA.
The point is to have a sound sufficiently accurate such that anyone else with
a good accurate hifi system will hear something very similar to what you intend.
By all means produce an alternative mix for your PA using any "monitors" that
will suit the purpose, but what they might be is impossible to second guess.
rgds, sreten.
The point of a pair of monitor quality speakers is not to sound like a cut down PA.
The point is to have a sound sufficiently accurate such that anyone else with
a good accurate hifi system will hear something very similar to what you intend.
By all means produce an alternative mix for your PA using any "monitors" that
will suit the purpose, but what they might be is impossible to second guess.
rgds, sreten.
The heart of the problem is that you're monitoring nearfield and asking for the "sound" of an undefined PA system in the farfield in an undefined room. Putting together a shrunken (miniaturized) version of a large PA speaker is not going to accomplish that. Probably nothing will, actually.
I agree. EQ approximating the PA setup's response applied to the most accurate headphones or monitors available to the OP is probably as good an idea as anything. 'Course, the OP didn't mention what those PA speakers are yet.
That's exactly my point - it doesn't matter that the tweeter is down from nominal at a half octave below the crossover point, it wil result in a small dip in frequency response. Time alignment of drivers and linear phase through the crossover are far more important.
Oh, and I also doubt that the radiation pattern is going to be thown off enough to be noticeable.
I'm not going to keep arguing about how many ways that idea won't work with those drivers. Try simulating it from real measurements with phase and see if you get anywhere near your goal.
Econowave's are a great design, but they give way to much emphasis to constant directivity at the expense of many other things.
I think he said the PA horns were
"SS15's with JB1500N."
Klampy, maybe you can clarify what the equipment you are using on stage.
Thanks Xrk,
My PA system is 4x SS15 running JSAudio JB1500N drivers, each taking 600w.
my tops are a pair of Eminence Delta12a +cheap 1" compression horn in a BR cab tuned to 80hz. running on about 300w each.
i think best to ask, is the same frequency response as my system, of which i really need to measure to get an effective result to compare to. what im going off is simulations, of which so far i am tending to trust due to the accuracy i have noted in a few builds i have under my belt already. and thats how i came to the 8inch drivers and graph i posted already.
to the guys going on about phase correction and crossover slopes, tbh, im not sure what you're on about... i understand what you're saying, but please explain how it is relevant? particularly when i'm less than 2foot away from the drivers?
my PA isnt phase corrected, and it probably should be,but i just want a system thats clean, clear, and sounds solid at close range on my desk to produce on. and i cant afford big dollar monitors to do so, and nor can i afford for them to be too big, as my neighbour is less than 10m away.
however, i can build a box, i know how to use HR(albeit minimal knowledge), and i can read a graph.
My PA system is 4x SS15 running JSAudio JB1500N drivers, each taking 600w.
my tops are a pair of Eminence Delta12a +cheap 1" compression horn in a BR cab tuned to 80hz. running on about 300w each.
i think best to ask, is the same frequency response as my system, of which i really need to measure to get an effective result to compare to. what im going off is simulations, of which so far i am tending to trust due to the accuracy i have noted in a few builds i have under my belt already. and thats how i came to the 8inch drivers and graph i posted already.
to the guys going on about phase correction and crossover slopes, tbh, im not sure what you're on about... i understand what you're saying, but please explain how it is relevant? particularly when i'm less than 2foot away from the drivers?
my PA isnt phase corrected, and it probably should be,but i just want a system thats clean, clear, and sounds solid at close range on my desk to produce on. and i cant afford big dollar monitors to do so, and nor can i afford for them to be too big, as my neighbour is less than 10m away.
however, i can build a box, i know how to use HR(albeit minimal knowledge), and i can read a graph.
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