Yow!!!
Wow...I had no idea the firestorm of controversy this thread would ignite !! LOL! In the world of vintage amplifier clones, many manufacturers will tout their use of cloth covered, teflon, whatever wire as if it were a well guarded secret. My recent...and first...build is constructed from cut-offs from florescent light ballasts I replaced in my day job. I like the solid for ease of routing and workability. As long as it has no disadvantages, I will continue using it...what the hey, it's free and I have a crapload of it !!
BTW...I did a side by side resisteace comparison of solid vs stranded wire with no discernable difference.
Thanks everyone for your input...I LOVE THIS FORUM !!!😀
Wow...I had no idea the firestorm of controversy this thread would ignite !! LOL! In the world of vintage amplifier clones, many manufacturers will tout their use of cloth covered, teflon, whatever wire as if it were a well guarded secret. My recent...and first...build is constructed from cut-offs from florescent light ballasts I replaced in my day job. I like the solid for ease of routing and workability. As long as it has no disadvantages, I will continue using it...what the hey, it's free and I have a crapload of it !!
BTW...I did a side by side resisteace comparison of solid vs stranded wire with no discernable difference.
Thanks everyone for your input...I LOVE THIS FORUM !!!😀
Why dont we ask the electrons?
Unlike humans they are not too disciminatory so I figure they would bimble along the path of least resistance.
Has anyone measured the R of both types.. then theres capacitance , not too mention the elusive skin effect. Does any of it matter at audio frequencies?
Goodness knows how on earth anything was built that sounded good before the snake oil eased the electrons laborious path to sonic glory...
Hey man its wire.. copper the better.I did send a length to the vattican to be blessed so know I have god on my side as well.
Your mileage will vary.
Nick
Unlike humans they are not too disciminatory so I figure they would bimble along the path of least resistance.
Has anyone measured the R of both types.. then theres capacitance , not too mention the elusive skin effect. Does any of it matter at audio frequencies?
Goodness knows how on earth anything was built that sounded good before the snake oil eased the electrons laborious path to sonic glory...
Hey man its wire.. copper the better.I did send a length to the vattican to be blessed so know I have god on my side as well.
Your mileage will vary.
Nick
duderduderini said:
I did the same. It came back with the insulation removed and a note saying something about preventing the flow of electrons in any way was some sort of venial sin. It also said if I didn't want to electrify something I should just put my copper back inside my....
kuroguy said:
...Every chage is sacred!
Every charge is great!
If a charge is wasted,
God gets quite irate!
Apologies to M. Python
Ultimately, all analogue is quantum, and all digits are analogue...
Solid, for all the reasons everyone else said. PTFE insulation because PVC releases plasticiser over the years and that's why wires become unsolderable. Also, PVC is lossy at high audio/low RF (that's why you can RF weld it). Silvers wire solders better than copper and it's really not that expensive if you go to a bullion dealer and say, "I'd like a kilo of your finest 5 nines (99.999% pure) silver, and the form I'd like it in is 0.7mm wire."
Solid, for all the reasons everyone else said. PTFE insulation because PVC releases plasticiser over the years and that's why wires become unsolderable. Also, PVC is lossy at high audio/low RF (that's why you can RF weld it). Silvers wire solders better than copper and it's really not that expensive if you go to a bullion dealer and say, "I'd like a kilo of your finest 5 nines (99.999% pure) silver, and the form I'd like it in is 0.7mm wire."
Re: Ultimately, all analogue is quantum, and all digits are analogue...
I'll keep the low silver cost in mind the next time I have a spare thousand dollars or two.....
Of course I'll have to add on the cost of hiring young virgins to hand-weave organically-grown cotton insulation around the wire....
re: Insulation losses: I guess that's why all my ham radio equipment never had PVC insulation on the wiring.
re: Soldering ease- if you are having trouble soldering clean copper, you should change your solder, flux, or iron. This technology was worked out 60+ years ago.
I would agree with the PTFE recommendation because it is such a problem having easy-to-melt insulation, especially if you are re-doing connections to modify or rebuild a project. That's also the reason I don't like stranded wire, as you often end up with a 'brush' at the end of the wire after de-soldering. If a project is going to be banged around (ie guitar amp) I'll use stranded for longer wires as it is more rugged.
John
EC8010 said:
I'll keep the low silver cost in mind the next time I have a spare thousand dollars or two.....
Of course I'll have to add on the cost of hiring young virgins to hand-weave organically-grown cotton insulation around the wire....
re: Insulation losses: I guess that's why all my ham radio equipment never had PVC insulation on the wiring.
re: Soldering ease- if you are having trouble soldering clean copper, you should change your solder, flux, or iron. This technology was worked out 60+ years ago.
I would agree with the PTFE recommendation because it is such a problem having easy-to-melt insulation, especially if you are re-doing connections to modify or rebuild a project. That's also the reason I don't like stranded wire, as you often end up with a 'brush' at the end of the wire after de-soldering. If a project is going to be banged around (ie guitar amp) I'll use stranded for longer wires as it is more rugged.
John
Re: Re: hey - don't you know?
Pic of KT90 interconnect from screen to cathode. The quality of this skinny interconnect of many power tubes is typical. With such a splashed welded connection the idea that stranded or solid wires or even silver for external hook up can improve the performance is a myth. OMO.
richy
c2cthomas said:
AND Silver coated and sleeved in raw silk insulation 😉
Watch this hazard .... Make sure the silk is unwoven/stripped way back otherwise the soldering in contact with the silk will release Cyanide fumes. This hazard is to be taken seriously.
Pic of KT90 interconnect from screen to cathode. The quality of this skinny interconnect of many power tubes is typical. With such a splashed welded connection the idea that stranded or solid wires or even silver for external hook up can improve the performance is a myth. OMO.
richy
Attachments
Seriously, silver isn't expensive. The prices cable manufacturers charge in no way reflect the relative cost of silver versus copper. My soldering is fine, but I noticed the improvement in joints when I changed from 60/40 to 60/37/3 (silver) and then again when soldering silver wire. I assume the final improvement is because some of the surface silver is dissolved into the solder, but I could be wrong. Of course, if you're using lead-free solder, then perhaps there's no difference between soldering copper and silver - but I don't know any engineers who haven't hoarded lifetime personal stocks of "real" solder.
EC8010 said:
Unfortunately, Kester says flux cored eutectic lead solder has a shelf life around 3 years. I've used solder that's more than 10 years old with pretty good results, but it wouldn't hurt to keep your stash in a sealed bag indoors.
As far as I know lead solder is still being manufactured and sold just like before RoHS. The directive doesn't ban lead solder. It bans the use of lead solder in consumer electronics among a few other applications. Private hobbyists are still allowed to buy it. I don't know how things are in the US, but at least my local electronics merchant told me lead solder is still very much available from manufacturers. It's just that most of the electronics industry isn't allowed to use it. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
Re: Ultimately, all analogue is quantum, and all digits are analogue...
Agree with above comments. I generally use 5 nines stranded copper with teflon insulation for most things, but am also quite partial to solid 5 nines silver with teflon sleeving.
I hardly ever use shielded cable, although I have used double shielded litz w/teflon jacketing for some applications (sadly discontinued) - generally I haven't like the results with anything else except in a few instances where the driving source impedances were low.
Shoog said:
EC8010 said:
Agree with above comments. I generally use 5 nines stranded copper with teflon insulation for most things, but am also quite partial to solid 5 nines silver with teflon sleeving.
I hardly ever use shielded cable, although I have used double shielded litz w/teflon jacketing for some applications (sadly discontinued) - generally I haven't like the results with anything else except in a few instances where the driving source impedances were low.
vuohi said:
Lead solder is very readily available in the USA, however most US manufacturers are moving towards compliance with RoHS because of the global nature of their markets. I assume the lack of a CE mark on lead based solder products will eventually make it unobtainium in most of the EU, and the reduced demand will probably result in much higher prices and less general availability even here in the USA.
I did up the signal circuits in my phono preamp in all 5 nines silver with Teflon sleeving. As EC said, the solderability was outstanding and it only added about $35-40 total cost.
kevinkr said:
That is one disadvantage of diyAudio, I have now made a dent in my 40yr. old 5# roll of Kester "44" 🙂 You would not believe the dumpsters full of eval cards and components that got tossed last year.
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