If I replaced a power cord or power switch and heard a difference in the sound produced by my audio system, my first thought would be that one of the devices (either the original or the replacement) was defective and not operating to specifications.
If examination and measurement of the devices showed that neither was defective then I would assume some other factors confounded the listening tests.
If I continued to hear a difference when replacing only a (non-pathological) power cable or switch, under controlled conditions, then I would NOT conclude that my amplifier was exceptionally revealing, but rather that the amplifier had a defect that made it exceptionally sensitive to power delivery systems. That defect would make the amplifier unuseable to me.
But that's just me.
OP: If your amplifier is so bad that it is ruined by a power switch, then I guarantee you that a solid state relay won't fix the problem.
If examination and measurement of the devices showed that neither was defective then I would assume some other factors confounded the listening tests.
If I continued to hear a difference when replacing only a (non-pathological) power cable or switch, under controlled conditions, then I would NOT conclude that my amplifier was exceptionally revealing, but rather that the amplifier had a defect that made it exceptionally sensitive to power delivery systems. That defect would make the amplifier unuseable to me.
But that's just me.
OP: If your amplifier is so bad that it is ruined by a power switch, then I guarantee you that a solid state relay won't fix the problem.
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Hi, I have tried SSR's in a large energy distribution installation and was surprised the leakage of various types is so high that the installation was not to be called safe when switched off. In other words: we had still lethal voltages on stuff in off state. The installation was then rebuilt with ... relays. On the other hand I've seen them used to switch on heaters with no ill effects.
BTW soldering of 25 mm2 cables is not standard and certainly not better than crimping. I suggest to not post pictures of it.
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In a radio studio here we had a red "On air" light that lighted up continuously when a microphone was open (as intended) and kept flashing when all microphones were off (not intended at all). It turned out to be due to the built-in RC snubber network of a solid-state relay that drove the lamp. It conducted a few milliamperes when off, which slowly charged the power supply capacitor of the "On air" LED lamp until it reached a high enough voltage to flash. In the end I solved it by connecting the series connection of two 4.7 kohm, 5 W wirewound resistors in parallel with the lamp, that was just enough to keep the voltage below the level where the lamp ignited.
Perhaps because their coils are not engaged during normal operation?
A long time ago i noticed that the normally closed contacts of relays sound much better to me and even designed an attenuator in which the signal passes only through non-energised relays. Latching should be similar.
Unfortunately no relay can get anywhere close to a Shallco attenuator.
Fully agree. Been down the same road, reached the same conclusions. Luckily, with age i have learned to compromise. I have also discovered silver alloy switches which are less damaging than what is commonly used. And despite the sonic penalties i use IEC and Schuko terminations. Not that i have much choice, having exclusively solid core Neotech for power.
My personal experience with trench mosfets in either speaker or DC rail switching duties has not been positive. As much as i was hoping to use them, it was just not possible.
It is easy to experiment with mosfet power line switches in a country with 110v mains, but for 240v i would expect to use 600v mosfets and these, when low Rdson, quickly get expensive.
Commercial SSRs...forget it, the chances these will be even remotely transparent are nil. If you want to experiment buy suitable mosfets and create your own SSR. Have a look at the Evolve power amps for circuit inspiration.
For safety I would like to recommend against building DIY SSR's for mains voltage use as there will be voltage 24/7. The commercial types are tested and safe but as said many leak enough to create unsafe situations in "off" state. The thought of DIY SSR's being possibly better than ready made SSR's is somewhat comical 🙂
The same counts for soldering 25 mm cabling which no professional would ever do and also for using mercury switches. Even if the complex way of doing stuff sounds perceivably better then still safety should be first priority followed by environmental precautions.
The same counts for soldering 25 mm cabling which no professional would ever do and also for using mercury switches. Even if the complex way of doing stuff sounds perceivably better then still safety should be first priority followed by environmental precautions.
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For safety you have to switch line and neutral. Switching neutral is difficult with SSRs, I think.
Not really. You will obviously need an auxiliary, always on ps, but this is a given these days.
For safety people should avoid breathing in public and all electrical safety issues should be delegated to the competent authorities - the designers in China 😛
"I somehow fitted and soldered the 25mm² conductors into an IEC plug with the socket pins soldered to the transformer lead in wires, terrible. IEC plugs for me have been bad for the sound, even the ridiculously expensive ones".
Are you for real?
A large helping of Snake Oil for me please as I know my amplifier produces a better sound wednesday evenings.
Are you for real?
A large helping of Snake Oil for me please as I know my amplifier produces a better sound wednesday evenings.
Got pretty serious allergic reaction after noticing this thread. Remedy was to make some measurements.
It is true that small change in the power supply output can affect output of amplifier it supplies if this amplifier is of very low PSRR variety.
As already pointed out in this thread, to be able to hear any effect of the power supply change, there must be a measurable change in the PS output. Exchanging switches and relays, that all have several mΩ resistance, is unlikely to change secondary voltage by more than several µV. So, what is that you hear? Only candidate IMO are rectification harmonics. So, let’s check.
I’ve made measurements with 220 V/300 VA/ 16 V transformer with active rectifier and 33 mF capacitor using short direct connection to mains with no switch in between and then, using 1 Ω resistor in series with transformer primary, serving as very bad switch replacement. Load was directly connected to capacitor after rectifier (no RC or LC filtering). Output was 21.5 V and load 3A.
Both spectrums are exactly the same! Any difference that could be spotted is due constant small measurement variation over time.
So again, what is it that deaf nanny with hearing aid can clearly hear but most of us pursuing this hobby can’t hear or measure?
It is true that small change in the power supply output can affect output of amplifier it supplies if this amplifier is of very low PSRR variety.
As already pointed out in this thread, to be able to hear any effect of the power supply change, there must be a measurable change in the PS output. Exchanging switches and relays, that all have several mΩ resistance, is unlikely to change secondary voltage by more than several µV. So, what is that you hear? Only candidate IMO are rectification harmonics. So, let’s check.
I’ve made measurements with 220 V/300 VA/ 16 V transformer with active rectifier and 33 mF capacitor using short direct connection to mains with no switch in between and then, using 1 Ω resistor in series with transformer primary, serving as very bad switch replacement. Load was directly connected to capacitor after rectifier (no RC or LC filtering). Output was 21.5 V and load 3A.
Both spectrums are exactly the same! Any difference that could be spotted is due constant small measurement variation over time.
So again, what is it that deaf nanny with hearing aid can clearly hear but most of us pursuing this hobby can’t hear or measure?
What is the reason to not reveal this wealth of information to other members?
Attachments
I would assume the magic hearing aid also has magical gold plated connections.
Which enables amazing sonic hearing.
The gold plating is using, a now non obtainable Gold. Extracted from very early rare 1800 era Gold rush mines. All closed
This level of hearing is not available
And only a select few of hearing impaired people can do advanced listening tests
Its also important for your soldering iron to carry a temperature which has a exact ratio to the golden ratio.
The result is very audible
Which enables amazing sonic hearing.
The gold plating is using, a now non obtainable Gold. Extracted from very early rare 1800 era Gold rush mines. All closed
This level of hearing is not available
And only a select few of hearing impaired people can do advanced listening tests
Its also important for your soldering iron to carry a temperature which has a exact ratio to the golden ratio.
The result is very audible
This whole concept is Ridiculous. Show us with math and physics (or don't mention those words again ) how less than an ohm difference in the power supply feed is audible. The only thing it does is change the duration and level of the charging pulses a small fraction. Your power lines voltage changes much more than that. So from what you say your sound will constantly be changing as the line voltage changes. You must have terrible gear.
Wrong. Switches don't have coils. So more BS from the king of it.
But we are talking about relays too...
But anyway, my question was facetious to begin with.
There is a big elephant in the room.
We tend to say: 'If there is an audible difference between switches/cables, what could cause it?'.
But in reality, we have no idea whether there IS an audible difference.
In almost all of these cases, all we have is a subjective anecdote from someone who has a large stake in it, often denying the existence of something called perception and bias, let alone controlled listening tests.
That is a shame because a well controlled test is really an objective data point. But to conduct one takes a lot of work, a lot of people and a lot of time. And, you really need some organizer who knows how to do it, someone who knows about the pitfalls and double blind which turns out not to be double blind after all.
So it never gets done, and these types of threads come and go, never going anywhere.
The attachment is an example of how such things can be done.
Jan
We tend to say: 'If there is an audible difference between switches/cables, what could cause it?'.
But in reality, we have no idea whether there IS an audible difference.
In almost all of these cases, all we have is a subjective anecdote from someone who has a large stake in it, often denying the existence of something called perception and bias, let alone controlled listening tests.
That is a shame because a well controlled test is really an objective data point. But to conduct one takes a lot of work, a lot of people and a lot of time. And, you really need some organizer who knows how to do it, someone who knows about the pitfalls and double blind which turns out not to be double blind after all.
So it never gets done, and these types of threads come and go, never going anywhere.
The attachment is an example of how such things can be done.
Jan
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Jan, that's rather like saying that all matter is standing waves and we're living on an atom in someone else' nuclear explosion so we cant know anything except that we know we can't know anything.
I might be able to, not going to, count up 40 people of various walks of life, education, employment, IQ, musicians and tone deaf, who have hi-fi and who have independently swapped many parts, very large and very small, of their hi-fi and discerned a difference, a preference, and evolved and refined their systems sound and gain more pleasure from it.
They didn't need a doctoral research panel of experts working for months to tell them anything. Their own ears and brain were enough.
I know a few people who's ears and brain were not enough, spent very many £thousands and have never been happy with their sound, no matter what they changed, sounded bad to everyone else too.
I might be able to, not going to, count up 40 people of various walks of life, education, employment, IQ, musicians and tone deaf, who have hi-fi and who have independently swapped many parts, very large and very small, of their hi-fi and discerned a difference, a preference, and evolved and refined their systems sound and gain more pleasure from it.
They didn't need a doctoral research panel of experts working for months to tell them anything. Their own ears and brain were enough.
I know a few people who's ears and brain were not enough, spent very many £thousands and have never been happy with their sound, no matter what they changed, sounded bad to everyone else too.