From the rectification process that's obvious. The voltage on the caps is steadily drawn down by the amp, and will be topped up as soon as the transformer secondary voltage becomes larger than the cap voltage because that is when the diodes start to conduct.
In a dual phase rectifier that happens twice per period, which in 50Hz is every 10ms and at 60Hz every 8.33ms.
So what you will see on the caps is a sawtooth-like voltage, slowly going down between charging pulses as the amp draws current, and relatively quickly topped up during the period that the rectifiers conduct.
So there's no mystery here.
Jan
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I can't but possibly a university physics lab somewhere could. And that mastering studio I mentioned could have played you the comparative recordings.
This thread is not about proving to anyone anything they don't already know.
It's singular purpose is for those who do know to kindly and helpfully provide me, and others, with useful information so I / we can save money and time and I can get on with what's left of my life without wasting some of it buying a testing expensive SSR's. 🙂
Have you compared mains supply parts into a revealing system or not? It's a shame I cant simply teleport you over here and let you hear for yourself on a few revealing systems, and also some not so good ones. Though time is moving on fast and some friends have already died, others changed to other interests before they too succumb to the inevitable.
Either way, I want to improve my own equipment and that of some friends who already know for themselves that super spurs work for them too. And for cheap if possible. 🙂
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As in post 1, sorry if I was not clear enough in that post. I'll try and improve it.
Have they personally tried an SSR and what was the effect on the sound from their loudspeakers. Did it have a negative effect, if so what, how did it compare to relays, mechanical switches, mercury switches, huge contactors, anything else they tried.
Done. Thanks for your input 🙂
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I think we can all agree that any change in sound must mean that there is a change in the electrical output of the amp (excluding some alien mind control effect ;-).
In this thread, the only thing you are changing is the mains filtering, cabling and switching. So this must then cause some electrical change at the amp output.
A change in the mains cabling etc. can presumably cause a change in the voltage that appears on the supply voltage to the amp. Since changes on the supply are generally attenuated before they have an impact on the amp output, those supply voltage changes must be more than subtle.
They should be measurable.
Has anybody done that, or know of a measurement someone did?
Jan
In this thread, the only thing you are changing is the mains filtering, cabling and switching. So this must then cause some electrical change at the amp output.
A change in the mains cabling etc. can presumably cause a change in the voltage that appears on the supply voltage to the amp. Since changes on the supply are generally attenuated before they have an impact on the amp output, those supply voltage changes must be more than subtle.
They should be measurable.
Has anybody done that, or know of a measurement someone did?
Jan
I'll believe that "anyone can hear the differences" among competent power line components when the claimer can demonstrate that in a double blind ABX or similar test. Otherwise, it's just expressed beliefs.
I just finished a preamplifier with built-in SSR switches for powering IEC female sockets for power amplifier monoblocks. So I am also interested in the sonic effect of SSR mains switches, not having any experience myself.
Scientists can measure the weight of individual atoms but measuring how a power cord sounds still eludes them. OP is the definition of confirmation bias. Nevermind the miles of power lines between the generators and your home. The steel core wire at the power station and the aluminum feed from the pole to your home. Yet somehow a different shaped piece of plastic around those wires can ruin the sound?
Why do latching relays sound better than normal relays and switches?
Have you also upgraded the circuit breaker which feeds the circuit powering your amps as well?
No you wanted only to have posts that agree with you. This is very different. Having ones beliefs challenged can be very difficult, especially if they start to make you doubt your beliefs. Unfortunately as humans, we cling to our beliefs when in reality often the only way to grow is to accept the challenges, and sometime accept that our beliefs may have been wrong.
Your first post (and especially the last sentence) Reads to me like a troll post. Maybe I'm biased there due to having dealt with so many over the years, but there are many statements in it, that will cause all of the people you are trying to keep out to get their backs up and come in swinging.
Now if I put aside that view, and consider your post as completely genuine. I would say you are very fortunate to have had Jan set the tone of the thread so far. I'd also implore you to consider what he is saying, and not work of blind faith in your beliefs.
It is stubborn adherence to beliefs (on both sides) that results in useless threads that devolve into mudslinging and thread closure.
Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree, but one thing we don't do is censor reasonable technical debate. diyAudio has a strong technical backbone and to state that you want to discuss things and all technical discussion that may not agree with your viewpoint is not allowed, is just not acceptable.
Tony.
I also see a positive in this. The issue as first presented covers so many unknowns that managing it could become overwhelming. While it's reasonable to begin by questioning everything, a way forward might be to design and build power supplies. The knowledge gained, the understanding of the level of control you can have over the conversion process, learning what matters and what doesn't.. might keep you up at night for the right reasons, instead of the wrong ones 😉
Hi ya IanAS,
I am quite concerned you would put you own and perhaps your family's health and safety at risk by mucking around with mains components. Removing switches, fuses and appropriate connectors, even for test purposes, is dangerous. Its also quite illegal and can negate insurance policies.
When ever I have the lid off my amp I power it through my safety lamp box which has a non-latching pushbutton that ensures that only one hand is exposed to electric shock, guaranteeing that I never risk a current flowing through my heart.
That said, I employ a soft start of my own design and it does not change my satisfaction with the system sound. Similarly my own design, I use separate solid state relays to protect my speakers and output transistors. These have an Rds(on) of a couple of milliohms compared to the 50milliohm current sense resistors. Again, no discernible insertion effect.
My next challenge is to design a current transformer detection circuit for the over-current condition. The only reason is the intellectual challenge.
I am quite concerned you would put you own and perhaps your family's health and safety at risk by mucking around with mains components. Removing switches, fuses and appropriate connectors, even for test purposes, is dangerous. Its also quite illegal and can negate insurance policies.
When ever I have the lid off my amp I power it through my safety lamp box which has a non-latching pushbutton that ensures that only one hand is exposed to electric shock, guaranteeing that I never risk a current flowing through my heart.
That said, I employ a soft start of my own design and it does not change my satisfaction with the system sound. Similarly my own design, I use separate solid state relays to protect my speakers and output transistors. These have an Rds(on) of a couple of milliohms compared to the 50milliohm current sense resistors. Again, no discernible insertion effect.
My next challenge is to design a current transformer detection circuit for the over-current condition. The only reason is the intellectual challenge.
Ian, your thinking was fatally flawed from the beginning. It's not a choice between switching devices.
Everyone knows that the only sonically pure device is a straight wire. So your only choice is to have NO switch, just a straight wire. It's a no brainer. Simply have the amp on continuously and wire it directly, no plug.
There is one other thing to remember. You can't connect it to the grid. There are numerous switching devices between your house and the nuclear reactor or hydro dam that generates electricity. So you need to connect the amp to your own solar cell/battery bank directly and permanently. Bonus, that electricity is free.
Having read most of the thread, don't even bother with an SSR as your superpower appears to be really
good hearing. The output of an SSR WILL have extra pulses due to the ways SCRs (or TRIACS) turn on and off.
In your case just use a big fat relay to turn on your amp. There will be NO change in waveforms to the amp.
What would probably be BEST for you is to use an SSR because most (but not all) have a zero crossing
detector so it always starts at 0 Volts with no random start points. After a few cycles of the SSR bypass it
with a conventional relay so whatever artefacts happen with an SSR will be gone before any sound begins.
It won't get better than that.
If you get 50/60 Hz quirks I would look at the actual diodes in the bridge and add snubbers to clean up the quirks.
Merry Christmas and good luck
G²