analog_sa said:
No, that's a clear evidence of generalization.
All humans are made equal.
All amps sound the same.
All pots sound the same.
Bellwire will do for your speakes.
Interconnects are 50c at the cheapest store in town.
😀
Mr Evil said:
Are we talking audio or what?
It's not a matter of existence, it's a fact of people evaluating equipment.
Some people also get nervous when they are asked to evaluate.
It's a test for them.
Unexperienced listeners will get confused and pick one by hazard, of pick one that the other guys liked.
I don't think anyone is saying that the DBT methodology is perfect, but at the same time I don't see how you can argue that it isn't better. On the observation that our judgement is affected by marketing/pre-conceieved ideas/expectations/aesthetics and these are some of the biggest unwanted influences on how we assess equipment, then removing the ability to judge based on these variables brings an improvement to the bottom line. Sure, this puts the judge in a different position, without the comfort of knowing that you can fit expectation and the crowd by instictively choosing based on the non-auditory input. This heighted concern may itself affect our ability to discern, as may innumerable other variables, but being forced to use our ears over our eyes to measure audio equipment offers a bigger advantage.jeff mai said:
IMO we can debate about evaluating everything scientifically until we're all blue in the face, but there are clearly practical limitations to this, especially if every line written here (like at present) is semantically scrutinised and eventually deemed to be flawed. But you will never erradicate all assumptions.
Because it is *assumed* through common sense that the advantages bought by DBT are bigger than the unknows/disadvantages. I know you dislike and have dismissed the analogy, but I too assume thare there are no flying pigs. This has yet to be demonstrated to me either way.jeff mai said:
'all-revealing', 'best picture' and 'right-test'? Who here is preaching these words?
I'm sure it changes the way we appraoch things. But perhaps its also worth thinking about how the remaining senses of a blind/deaf etc. man are heigtened through the loss. With a DBT it's reasonable assumption that we're relying more on our ears - and this is what we want. How then can you be sure that this unnatural appraoch does affect the ability to discern to a level greater than its advantages?jeff mai said:
This is a level of thought I do subscribe to. At the end of the day with everything said and done, it's about the music and its effects on our brain. If something consistently makes that enjoyment better, regardless of what it is, then how can you argue against that bottom line. If spending obscene amounts of money on an amp, having a thick front plate, or 5* rating from your guru reviewer makes you enjoy your music more than any other amp - then I envy that pleasure.jeff mai said:
***************************
Now back to the sound of passives. Don't all conductors exhibit different RLC characteristics the sum or even individual values of which may affect the sound? And what about the tolerances and absolute values of components that are being compared. The materials and tolerances of the more expensive components are different (assumingly) which different thermal etc. properties. Are these not practical reasons why passives may sound different?
And now for something completely different....
Quoted here is under strict application of the "fair usage" law a section from the triolgies appendix, purporting to be a section of the Booklett "Never whistle while your'e ****ing" by Freiherr Hagbard Celine....
I feel that some of the concepts and ideas are very relevant to the social microcosm of Audio as much as to the social macrocosm on this little ball of dirt we call home....
Of Damned and other Things
==========================
I once overheard two botanists arguing over a Damned Thing that had blasphemously sprouted in a college yard. One claimed that the Damned Thing was a tree and the other claimed that it was a shrub. They each had good scholary arguments, and they were still debating when I left them.
The world is forever spawning Damned Things- things that are neither tree nor shrub, fish nor fowl, black nor white- and the categorical thinker can only regard the spiky and buzzing world of sensory fact as a profound insult to his card-index system of classifications.
Worst of all are the facts which violate "common sense", that dreary bog of sullen prejudice and muddy inertia. The whole history of science is the odyssey of a pixilated card-indexer perpetually sailing between such Damned Things and desperately juggling his classifications to fit them in, just as the history of politics is the futile epic of a long series of attempts to line up the Damned Things and cajole them to march in regiment.
Every ideology is a mental murder, a reduction of dynamic living
processes to static classifications, and every classification is a
Damnation, just as every inclusion is an exclusion. In a busy,
buzzing universe where no two snow flakes are identical, and no two trees are identical, and no two people are identical- and, indeed, the smallest sub-atomic particle, we are assured, is not even identical with itself from one microsecond to the next - every card-index system is a delusion. "Or, to put it more charitably," as
Nietzsche says, "we are all better artists than we realize."
It is easy to see that label "Jew" was a Damnation in Nazi Germany, but actually the label "Jew" is a Damnation anywhere, even where anti-semitism does not exist. "He is a Jew," "He is a doctor," and "He is a poet" mean, to the card indexing centre of the cortex, that my experience with him will be like my experience with other Jews, other doctors, and other poets. Thus, individuality is ignored when identity is asserted. At a party or any place where strangers meet, watch this mechanism in action.
Behind the friendly overtures there is wariness as each person fishes for the label that will identify and Damn the other. Finally, it is revealed: "Oh, he's an advertising copywriter," "Oh, he's an engine-lathe operator." Both parties relax, for now they know how to behave, what roles to play in the game. Ninety-nine percent of each has been Damned; the other is reacting to
the 1 percent that has been labeled by the card-index machine.
Certain Damnations are socially and intellectually necessary, of
course. A custard pie thrown in a comedian's face is Damned by the physicist who analyzes it according to the Newtonian laws of motion. These equations tell us we want to know about the impact of the pie on the face, but nothing about the human meaning of pie-throwing. A cultural anthropologist, analyzing the social function of the comedian as shaman, court jester, and king's surrogate, explains the pie-throwing as a survival of the Feast of Fools and the killing of the king's double. This Damns the subject in another way.
A psychoanalyst, finding an Oedipal castration ritual here, has performed a third Damnation, and the Marxist, seeing an outlet for the worker's repressed rage against the bosses, performs a fourth. Each Damnation has its values and uses, but is nonetheless a Damnation unless its partial and arbitrary nature is recognized.
The poet, who compares the pie in the comedian's face with Decline of the West or his own lost love, commits a fifth Damnation, but in this case the game element and the whimsicality of the symbolism are safely obvious. At least, one would hope so; reading the New Critics occasionally raises doubts on this point.
Human society can be structured either according to the principle of authority or according to the principle of liberty. Authority is a
static social configuration in which people act as superiors and inferiors: a sado-masochistic relationship. Liberty is a dynamic
social configuration in which people act as equals: an erotic relationship. In every interaction between people, either Authority or Liberty is the dominant factor.
Families, churches, lodges, clubs and corporations are either more authoritarian than libertarian or more libertarian than authoritarian. It becomes obvious as we proceed that the most pugnacious and intolerant form of authority is the State, which even today dares to assume absolutism which the church itself has long ago surrendered and to enforce obedience with the Church's old and shameful Inquisition.
Every form of authoritarianism is, however, a small "State," even if it has a membership of only two. Freud's remark to the effect that the delusion of many men is religion can be generalized: The authoritarianism of one man is crime and the authoritarianism of many is State.
Benjamin Tucker wrote quite accurately: Aggression is simply another name for government. Aggression, invasion, government are interchangeable terms. The essence of government is control, or the attempt to control. He who attempts to control another is a governor, an aggressor, an invader; and the nature of such invasion is not changed, whether it be made by one man upon another man, after the manner of the ordinary criminal, or by
one man upon all other men, after the manner of an absolute monarch, or by all other men upon one man, after the manner of a modern democracy.
Tucker's use of the word "invasion" is remarkably precise, considering that he wrote more than fifty years before the basic discovery of ethology. Every act of authority is, in fact, an invasion of the psychic and physical territory of another.
Every fact of science was once Damned.
Every invention was considered impossible.
Every discovery was a nervous shock to some orthodoxy.
Every artistic innovation was denounced as fraud and folly.
The entire web of culture and "progress," everything on earth that is man-made and not given to us by nature, is the concrete manifestation of some man's refusal to bow to Authority. We would own no more, know no more, and be no more than the first apelike hominids if it were not for the rebellious, the recalcitrant, and the intransigent. As Oscar Wilde truly said, "Disobedience was man's Original Virtue."
The most thoroughly and relentlessly Damned, banned, excluded,
condemned, forbidden, ostracized, ignore, suppressed, repressed, robbed, brutalized and defamed of all Damned Things is the individual human being.
The social engineers, statistician, psychologist, sociologists, market researchers, landlords, bureaucrats, captains of industry, bankers, governors, commissars, kings and presidents are perpetually forcing this Damned Thing into carefully prepared blueprints and perpetually irritated that the Damned Thing will not fit into the slot assigned it. The theologians call it a sinner and try to reform it. The governor calls it a criminal and tries to punish it. The psychologist calls it a neurotic and tries to cure it.
Still, the Damned Thing will not fit into their slots.
==============================================
Sayonara
Fnord
A totally unrelated link:
The Antiqueties of the Illuminati
=======================
http://www.antiqillum.com/
Fnord
A totally related link:
Heavy Grass
=========
http://www.rawilson.com/goldenapple.shtml
Fnord
A somewhat related link:
Principia Discordia
=============
http://www.ology.org/principia/
Fnord
You should now inexplicably feel a state of acute paranoia and panic.
Fnord
Quoted here is under strict application of the "fair usage" law a section from the triolgies appendix, purporting to be a section of the Booklett "Never whistle while your'e ****ing" by Freiherr Hagbard Celine....
I feel that some of the concepts and ideas are very relevant to the social microcosm of Audio as much as to the social macrocosm on this little ball of dirt we call home....
Of Damned and other Things
==========================
I once overheard two botanists arguing over a Damned Thing that had blasphemously sprouted in a college yard. One claimed that the Damned Thing was a tree and the other claimed that it was a shrub. They each had good scholary arguments, and they were still debating when I left them.
The world is forever spawning Damned Things- things that are neither tree nor shrub, fish nor fowl, black nor white- and the categorical thinker can only regard the spiky and buzzing world of sensory fact as a profound insult to his card-index system of classifications.
Worst of all are the facts which violate "common sense", that dreary bog of sullen prejudice and muddy inertia. The whole history of science is the odyssey of a pixilated card-indexer perpetually sailing between such Damned Things and desperately juggling his classifications to fit them in, just as the history of politics is the futile epic of a long series of attempts to line up the Damned Things and cajole them to march in regiment.
Every ideology is a mental murder, a reduction of dynamic living
processes to static classifications, and every classification is a
Damnation, just as every inclusion is an exclusion. In a busy,
buzzing universe where no two snow flakes are identical, and no two trees are identical, and no two people are identical- and, indeed, the smallest sub-atomic particle, we are assured, is not even identical with itself from one microsecond to the next - every card-index system is a delusion. "Or, to put it more charitably," as
Nietzsche says, "we are all better artists than we realize."
It is easy to see that label "Jew" was a Damnation in Nazi Germany, but actually the label "Jew" is a Damnation anywhere, even where anti-semitism does not exist. "He is a Jew," "He is a doctor," and "He is a poet" mean, to the card indexing centre of the cortex, that my experience with him will be like my experience with other Jews, other doctors, and other poets. Thus, individuality is ignored when identity is asserted. At a party or any place where strangers meet, watch this mechanism in action.
Behind the friendly overtures there is wariness as each person fishes for the label that will identify and Damn the other. Finally, it is revealed: "Oh, he's an advertising copywriter," "Oh, he's an engine-lathe operator." Both parties relax, for now they know how to behave, what roles to play in the game. Ninety-nine percent of each has been Damned; the other is reacting to
the 1 percent that has been labeled by the card-index machine.
Certain Damnations are socially and intellectually necessary, of
course. A custard pie thrown in a comedian's face is Damned by the physicist who analyzes it according to the Newtonian laws of motion. These equations tell us we want to know about the impact of the pie on the face, but nothing about the human meaning of pie-throwing. A cultural anthropologist, analyzing the social function of the comedian as shaman, court jester, and king's surrogate, explains the pie-throwing as a survival of the Feast of Fools and the killing of the king's double. This Damns the subject in another way.
A psychoanalyst, finding an Oedipal castration ritual here, has performed a third Damnation, and the Marxist, seeing an outlet for the worker's repressed rage against the bosses, performs a fourth. Each Damnation has its values and uses, but is nonetheless a Damnation unless its partial and arbitrary nature is recognized.
The poet, who compares the pie in the comedian's face with Decline of the West or his own lost love, commits a fifth Damnation, but in this case the game element and the whimsicality of the symbolism are safely obvious. At least, one would hope so; reading the New Critics occasionally raises doubts on this point.
Human society can be structured either according to the principle of authority or according to the principle of liberty. Authority is a
static social configuration in which people act as superiors and inferiors: a sado-masochistic relationship. Liberty is a dynamic
social configuration in which people act as equals: an erotic relationship. In every interaction between people, either Authority or Liberty is the dominant factor.
Families, churches, lodges, clubs and corporations are either more authoritarian than libertarian or more libertarian than authoritarian. It becomes obvious as we proceed that the most pugnacious and intolerant form of authority is the State, which even today dares to assume absolutism which the church itself has long ago surrendered and to enforce obedience with the Church's old and shameful Inquisition.
Every form of authoritarianism is, however, a small "State," even if it has a membership of only two. Freud's remark to the effect that the delusion of many men is religion can be generalized: The authoritarianism of one man is crime and the authoritarianism of many is State.
Benjamin Tucker wrote quite accurately: Aggression is simply another name for government. Aggression, invasion, government are interchangeable terms. The essence of government is control, or the attempt to control. He who attempts to control another is a governor, an aggressor, an invader; and the nature of such invasion is not changed, whether it be made by one man upon another man, after the manner of the ordinary criminal, or by
one man upon all other men, after the manner of an absolute monarch, or by all other men upon one man, after the manner of a modern democracy.
Tucker's use of the word "invasion" is remarkably precise, considering that he wrote more than fifty years before the basic discovery of ethology. Every act of authority is, in fact, an invasion of the psychic and physical territory of another.
Every fact of science was once Damned.
Every invention was considered impossible.
Every discovery was a nervous shock to some orthodoxy.
Every artistic innovation was denounced as fraud and folly.
The entire web of culture and "progress," everything on earth that is man-made and not given to us by nature, is the concrete manifestation of some man's refusal to bow to Authority. We would own no more, know no more, and be no more than the first apelike hominids if it were not for the rebellious, the recalcitrant, and the intransigent. As Oscar Wilde truly said, "Disobedience was man's Original Virtue."
The most thoroughly and relentlessly Damned, banned, excluded,
condemned, forbidden, ostracized, ignore, suppressed, repressed, robbed, brutalized and defamed of all Damned Things is the individual human being.
The social engineers, statistician, psychologist, sociologists, market researchers, landlords, bureaucrats, captains of industry, bankers, governors, commissars, kings and presidents are perpetually forcing this Damned Thing into carefully prepared blueprints and perpetually irritated that the Damned Thing will not fit into the slot assigned it. The theologians call it a sinner and try to reform it. The governor calls it a criminal and tries to punish it. The psychologist calls it a neurotic and tries to cure it.
Still, the Damned Thing will not fit into their slots.
==============================================
Sayonara
Fnord
A totally unrelated link:
The Antiqueties of the Illuminati
=======================
http://www.antiqillum.com/
Fnord
A totally related link:
Heavy Grass
=========
http://www.rawilson.com/goldenapple.shtml
Fnord
A somewhat related link:
Principia Discordia
=============
http://www.ology.org/principia/
Fnord
You should now inexplicably feel a state of acute paranoia and panic.
Fnord
Carlos, this is rather awkward joke. And you till, my question to you was not answered . Will be ?
in case you want personal informations from me, do you expect i answer in public? you are enabled and allowed to ask my by private mail, and i will descide what personal information i want to tell you.
why don´t you ask my credit card number?
why don´t you ask my credit card number?
Yes, your age is top secret. Why do you mean, that I need your CC number ? Not directly are you saying, that I'm potential thief ? Not, I am not, but you are ox.
I don't want some Piher pots in my audio projects.
Perhaps only to find how big resistor do I need for
led diod in my amp or something.😉
Perhaps only to find how big resistor do I need for
led diod in my amp or something.😉
wow , thats so strange ,people are trying to improve systems with different resistors,caps,pots,chip amps ,cables,op amps,pre amps.........blablabla
while the only thing that can make a big difference in sound is your speakers
while the only thing that can make a big difference in sound is your speakers
Back to the roots?
Fantastic.
Really?
Nah.
While the speakers make difference, they are the last component in the system chain.
In a car, it's the tyres.
The source component influences everything, it's the car's engine.
What's the use to put the best tyres/wheels and have a bad engine?
Will the car drive faster?😀
You can buy quite decent speakers for not much money, but amplifiers and source components for the same money sound miserable.
Do all amps sound the same or make little difference?
Your way of thinking was very common in the 60's.
sss said:
Fantastic.
Really?
Nah.
While the speakers make difference, they are the last component in the system chain.
In a car, it's the tyres.
The source component influences everything, it's the car's engine.
What's the use to put the best tyres/wheels and have a bad engine?
Will the car drive faster?😀
You can buy quite decent speakers for not much money, but amplifiers and source components for the same money sound miserable.
Do all amps sound the same or make little difference?
Your way of thinking was very common in the 60's.
Re: Back to the roots?
Cars have different size engines. Will a 150hp engine keep up with the 250hp engine? The answer is yes and no, it will stain to keep up or keep up for awhile until the first hill.
More towards Carlos's example if two cars both have 250 hp engines, one with bald tires and one with new tires. Will they perform as well? The answer is no, how do we know that, dah....
Best end results are achieved using best available components. Strive for better signal, output and drivers.
No offense intended. Phil
Hi Carlos, I agree with what your saying, maybe this is a bit clearer idea.carlosfm said:
Cars have different size engines. Will a 150hp engine keep up with the 250hp engine? The answer is yes and no, it will stain to keep up or keep up for awhile until the first hill.
More towards Carlos's example if two cars both have 250 hp engines, one with bald tires and one with new tires. Will they perform as well? The answer is no, how do we know that, dah....
Best end results are achieved using best available components. Strive for better signal, output and drivers.
No offense intended. Phil
Actualy that was just an example, although we can't by any means associate power with quality if we are talking about audio amps and even more so, source components.😀
Igla said:
If the amp is bad, you can use the best pot in the world, you will be convinced... better use the crap, not much difference.😎
Loudspeakers have not evoluted so much in the last 30~40 years regarding sound quality.
There were very good ones back then, and what has been invented lately?
Well... NXT.
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