"Resist...Because the vice begin to weaken from day one"
"Freedom and slavery,the one is the name of virtue, and the other of vice, and both are acts of the will"
Epictetus
well said.
All I'm saying is that we should take neuroscience into account before blaming the addicts.
Tom
Tom
When my Dad had to go on oxygen the first thing they told him was you are not allowed to smoke while using the oxygen tank because it could explode if exposed to fire like matches/lighters and a lit cig. Either there is a risk or they are wrong?
Also there was an article of an Ambulance exploded they believe due to a oxygen tank killing the patient inside as well as injuring the paramedic.
IfI can quit snus, which contains ten times the amount of nicotine as a cigarette, then anyone can quit anything. It is just tough for one week, a little tough for the second week, and the third week just require the occasional slap in the face.
Oxygen supports combustion - it in itself is NOT combustible but an oxygen rich environment can cause combustible material to burn far more violently than in plain air.
When I learned oxy-acetyline brazing, I was taught "A before O or up you go..."
Apollo 1 burned up so violently because of a pure oxygen environment, but there would have been no fire without combustible materials present in the first place.
When I learned oxy-acetyline brazing, I was taught "A before O or up you go..."
Apollo 1 burned up so violently because of a pure oxygen environment, but there would have been no fire without combustible materials present in the first place.
I'm pretty sure I've heard this before too. I can't claim to be a chemistry expert but even a basic fire triangle demonstrates the fact that oxygen is not a fuel source. It is a necessary ingredient to react with a genuine fuel like gasoline, hydrogen, propane, what have you. An exploding tank would more likely be from the highly pressurized cylinder being ruptured from a collision or falling and hitting the valve just right. In theory you could take an oxygen tank and crank the valve on full blast and direct a blowtorch flame directly in the oxygen flow without consequence. Do it an a room with a dense vapor of gasoline and you would probably get blown out the window Die Hard style. Perhaps if you are drinking whiskey and smoking and have an oxygen tube in close proximity you could get a fireball in your face? Again, I'm no expert but when I hear these stories it's like a head scratcher; I suspect there are a lot more factors involved in these freak accidents. 🤔
Edit: What kodabmx said. Pure Oxygen is like a supercharger for combustion. It allows for a balanced reaction ratio. Fill a balloon with hydrogen and air and light it, you get a bang. Fill the same balloon with hydrogen and pure oxygen and you get a KABOOM
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People who are destroying themselves with alcohol often have people ask "why don't you just drink less". What response is there except to say "If I could stop we wouldn't be talking about this".
I know/knew people who gradually, over decades, destroyed their lives through drinking. They knew they were doing it, they couldn't stop. Their brains had become wired so that they were utterly dependent and sooner or later they would crack because of the stress of life or the encouragement of a 'friend' and then they'd be further down the spiral. But if they could have stopped, they would have. One died at 50, wasted away to nothing on alcohol and 'substances'. It was a tragic waste of a life, his mother was inconsolable, not just that he'd died, but that she'd not been able to save him (and believe me, she tried).
Everyone's different. How your brain reacts to your drug of choice will be different to someone else. Some become so mired there's no escape. It's like nitrogen narcosis, by the time you realise you've got it, you're often so far gone it's impossible to recover from it.
I know/knew people who gradually, over decades, destroyed their lives through drinking. They knew they were doing it, they couldn't stop. Their brains had become wired so that they were utterly dependent and sooner or later they would crack because of the stress of life or the encouragement of a 'friend' and then they'd be further down the spiral. But if they could have stopped, they would have. One died at 50, wasted away to nothing on alcohol and 'substances'. It was a tragic waste of a life, his mother was inconsolable, not just that he'd died, but that she'd not been able to save him (and believe me, she tried).
Everyone's different. How your brain reacts to your drug of choice will be different to someone else. Some become so mired there's no escape. It's like nitrogen narcosis, by the time you realise you've got it, you're often so far gone it's impossible to recover from it.
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I often wonder how bad sugar addiction is. It’s less toxic and maybe it’s less addictive than alcohol or nicotine but it appears to me that it may actually kill more people
Apart from the fact that politics and religion are supposed to be a no-no on the forum (and quite rightly so) I have to respond - going to church is mostly because you have been brainwashed form birth or in later life are frightened of death and want to believe in an afterlife.
diepiolet - when the Taliban are stood down from duty they are given the best Afghan hash to smoke - mazah sharif, if they are caught using opium or refined heroin they are summarily executed. Pakistan is the exit route for Afghan Red because of this they have a terrible problem with addicts. In the UK some join the police so that they can work their way into the drug squads - lots and lots of money to be made just by looking the other way.
tomchr - most females that become addicts do so from having junkie boyfriends. Most junkies lose whatever moral compass they once had, they become a shell. When I was working in Rotterdam after some time I became something of an 'info centre' for a lot of young Brits. One day I was sitting in a works canteen and a Scots guy came up and said "at first I thought you were Dutch but I realised your grammar was all wrong" - true enough. A few days later I was walking through the Saturday straat markt with a very close Dutch friend who had become a junkie. He saw someone who he knew was a junkie who was walking with this Scots guy and his young wife and baby. He said to me "you must warn that Scots guy his friend is a junkie". I did but he took no notice. One day a little while later he felt sick at work and went home. As he came in the front door this Dutch junkie left via the window and his young wife was lying on the bed with a 'spike' (hypodermic needle) in her arm. I told him to take her and the baby back to Scotland immediately - he didn't listen. A few days later his young wife and the baby went missing with the junkie. The junkie now had a pretty young girl who would prostitute herself to feed his and her habit, the outlook for the young mother and baby was not good. I suppose most have seen the film - Trainspotting - forget it that was a pale imitation of reality.
I remember only too well a Dutch mother crying in my arms - she had shown me photos of her daughter before and after smack addiction. One day I had gone to one of the 3 best Indonesian restaurants in the Netherlands it was on the Nieuwe Binnerweg straat which was at the bottom of my street. This street was famous for prostitutes plying their trade from early afternoon onwards, I saw her daughter looking for business, we smiled and went on our different ways. I have said already on this thread that I know the solution to this horrendous (and it is horrendous) problem and it isn't a pretty one.
The thing that drives these kinds of conclusions is the funding allotted to research done by professional biological/behavioural scientists whose only tools are rodents and monkeys with little reasoning capacity which results are then applied to reasoning intelligent beings having the power to rationalize their behaviour whether positive or negative, not merely power of choice. So the problem with addicts being victims is to not consider their ability to decide whether or not to 'continue' in their behaviour. To say their decision in this regard is predetermined due to their "addiction" ignores this fact. Even animals arrive at the final decision to go for it and 'jump'.
Everybody arrives at the threshold, but we, an informed one.
This is an area where David Hume shines. In tackling the 'free will question,' a series of thought experiments led him to the conclusion that free will does not exist-- rather each instance is deterministically linked to a chain of events leading all the way back to conception. It's irrelevant whether a person agrees with this perspective (which obviously many scientists do ), as the second conclusion he drew is what really mattered. He surmised that one must proceed as though free will does exist; that the consequences of not doing so would be disastrous. If an addict is destroying other's lives, sapping them of all resources, then Hume's advice must be taken as a survival strategy to those on the periphery.
Why are you stuck on rats?
Anyway, I don't have an issue with the notion that in the end, success in these things comes down to self-discipline and will-power.
That message, coming from a place of empathy and helpfulness would be: "Hi! You are in a tough position. It will take tremendous self-discipline and will-power to overcome this habit or mitigate this addiction. You might not have these skills now, but you can develop them and become stronger. Let me help you. Also, you don’t get extra credit for making things unnecessarily hard, so here are some things I believe may be impeding your path that you may need to address."
What I see coming through your posts is the opposite, unhelpful and borderline in-civil.
I hear: "we all understand self control and accountability." "it's a matter of self control"
What I interpret: "You aren't trying hard enough" "You need to exercise your will power"
What is often implied (sometimes outright stated): "You are deficient" "You are weak" - Which is shaming. And shame inhibits growth – period.
In my previous analogies, I relate the necessary skills (self-discipline and will-power, but also a good self-image, a feeling of purpose, and other things) to height – tall people are able to easily reach the top shelf, while others might need to get a stool. (I originally did this for simplicity, but muscular strength is probably a better analog because you can get better at these skills).
I get that you were able to quit cold-turkey, and profess that you don’t believe others can’t just do the same thing and don’t understand why they don’t. I just see that line of thinking as no different than someone who is 6’-4” tall who was able to just reach over and grab something off the top shelf, professing to not understand why a 5’-0” person can’t similarly just reach over and grab those things for themselves.
Statements like: “Just because one chooses to ignore these things and act out contrarily does not suggest they are not aware, hence the measures put in place to deal with it.” come across as not just a lack of understanding, but more of a judgement or looking down one's nose that someone might need a little help to accomplish what you believe you accomplished with ease.
Which is predictable, although disappointing – since your own story doesn’t appear to be one of recognizing “these things” or the "measures put in place to deal with it" and acting accordingly, it demonstrates that even you - with the requisite capability to quit cold-turkey, in an environment where the dangers are clearly messaged and articulated - needed an event to prompt action.
May you never be judged.
Peace.
Collins - Out.
Often there's no precipice it's a series of small decisions with big consequences that're not apparent when the decisions are made.
AA and NA exist out of need. "My name is Bill" is worth watching...
I quit so everyone can do it = I’m rich so everyone can be. Just work harder, try harder, control your impulses, etc.
@CANNON-FODDER First of all, I'm simply stating my opinion. I'm not "stuck" on rats. I brought it up because it's the published findings of such papers people use to not only arrive at the position addiction is insurmountable but to support it as well.
I don't like the word 'addiction'. It's a word used to absolve a person, at least in their own mind of, not accountability, but responsibility now that they've lost control. They are now 'victims'. This self deprecation is now what maintains this vicious cycle instead of dealing with the underlying issues that led them to abuse. Otoh, a person can fully understand yet wilfully and incomprehensibly choose to carry on and destroy themselves. This is what I find bewildering...(incidentally) not knowing what underlying reason there could be for someone to deliberately destroy their self. That's for them to know..we all have our secrets.
Although it's true I quit smoking due to an "event", I loved everything about it, knew everything about it and weighed the risk. I never "tried" to quit smoking. When I did it was a decision pure and simple. I had no craving whatsoever to return to the poison that was killing me. As I've mentioned already, "if it's not fun anymore, why are you doing it?" Let your conscience be your guide. In the meantime, if you need to be brought to your senses, so be it. It's the notion this becomes impossible that I have a problem with. Hopefully it happens voluntarily or not.
The depths one falls to by the time they do come to their senses may be too far to recover from. They say most of those who commit suicide attempt to save themselves at the last second. As I mentioned, the tipping point takes you by surprise.
I had a serious MVA about 15 years ago. It was winter and a slippery patch took me by surprise and I hit a tree which broke my pelvis in multiple places. They had me on that morphine self-administer machine in the hospital...it has a limit over time no matter how often you press the button...and I called the nurse over and said, "hey, you gotta give something else, this stuff is driving me crazy". It was making me hallucinate and it was freaking me out big time. So she brought me these little yellow pills(not Mother's Little Helpers). One time she saw me chewing them and said, "oh, don't chew them", but didn't say why and just walked away. So I'm looking at her thinking, 'sure, put yourself in my position and then tell me not to chew them'. So it's after I'm home recuperating that I discover these things are slow release Oxycontin (a drug I knew nothing about previously) when they refuse to renew my prescription. So at my loud protest they relent and renew it but only a few more. So I round up one of my drywallers to "fill" the prescription. I broke up the few I got legitimately in an effort to wean myself. I had not yet touched the "new prescription". Next morning I've got my leg up on a chair watching Judge Judy 9am sharp and I take a broken piece. Something happened that I never felt yet for the whole month and a half I was on this $hit. It was like a huge wave washed over me and I was in a different place, instantly. I immediately knew if I take one more dose of this I will be at the point of no return. IOW, I was being presented with a decision. So I got up, hobbled over to the toilet, dumped everything and flushed it down. Then I was sick for two weeks.
When you take your 3-4 year old out for Halloween you limit how much candy you let them eat because you know if you don't they'll eat til they're sick. But when they're 5 or 6 it only takes a couple of times for them to learn to eat in moderation. 12 step programs are not all that successful because they convince you you have a "disease"..once an alcy always an alcy. There are other programs that are highly successful because they don't preach abstinence but "moderation". They teach you to not be a child or pig about it and to understand when enough is enough. Mind you this applies to those recognizing a problem and seeking help. If you recognize a problem but don't care, why should anyone else? You're the captain of this ship.
If this seems judgemental, I'm just fine with that.
There's nothing in this Universe with the power to control you without your consent unless it's 'manufactured' as Noam Chomsky would say.
I don't like the word 'addiction'. It's a word used to absolve a person, at least in their own mind of, not accountability, but responsibility now that they've lost control. They are now 'victims'. This self deprecation is now what maintains this vicious cycle instead of dealing with the underlying issues that led them to abuse. Otoh, a person can fully understand yet wilfully and incomprehensibly choose to carry on and destroy themselves. This is what I find bewildering...(incidentally) not knowing what underlying reason there could be for someone to deliberately destroy their self. That's for them to know..we all have our secrets.
Although it's true I quit smoking due to an "event", I loved everything about it, knew everything about it and weighed the risk. I never "tried" to quit smoking. When I did it was a decision pure and simple. I had no craving whatsoever to return to the poison that was killing me. As I've mentioned already, "if it's not fun anymore, why are you doing it?" Let your conscience be your guide. In the meantime, if you need to be brought to your senses, so be it. It's the notion this becomes impossible that I have a problem with. Hopefully it happens voluntarily or not.
The depths one falls to by the time they do come to their senses may be too far to recover from. They say most of those who commit suicide attempt to save themselves at the last second. As I mentioned, the tipping point takes you by surprise.
I had a serious MVA about 15 years ago. It was winter and a slippery patch took me by surprise and I hit a tree which broke my pelvis in multiple places. They had me on that morphine self-administer machine in the hospital...it has a limit over time no matter how often you press the button...and I called the nurse over and said, "hey, you gotta give something else, this stuff is driving me crazy". It was making me hallucinate and it was freaking me out big time. So she brought me these little yellow pills(not Mother's Little Helpers). One time she saw me chewing them and said, "oh, don't chew them", but didn't say why and just walked away. So I'm looking at her thinking, 'sure, put yourself in my position and then tell me not to chew them'. So it's after I'm home recuperating that I discover these things are slow release Oxycontin (a drug I knew nothing about previously) when they refuse to renew my prescription. So at my loud protest they relent and renew it but only a few more. So I round up one of my drywallers to "fill" the prescription. I broke up the few I got legitimately in an effort to wean myself. I had not yet touched the "new prescription". Next morning I've got my leg up on a chair watching Judge Judy 9am sharp and I take a broken piece. Something happened that I never felt yet for the whole month and a half I was on this $hit. It was like a huge wave washed over me and I was in a different place, instantly. I immediately knew if I take one more dose of this I will be at the point of no return. IOW, I was being presented with a decision. So I got up, hobbled over to the toilet, dumped everything and flushed it down. Then I was sick for two weeks.
When you take your 3-4 year old out for Halloween you limit how much candy you let them eat because you know if you don't they'll eat til they're sick. But when they're 5 or 6 it only takes a couple of times for them to learn to eat in moderation. 12 step programs are not all that successful because they convince you you have a "disease"..once an alcy always an alcy. There are other programs that are highly successful because they don't preach abstinence but "moderation". They teach you to not be a child or pig about it and to understand when enough is enough. Mind you this applies to those recognizing a problem and seeking help. If you recognize a problem but don't care, why should anyone else? You're the captain of this ship.
If this seems judgemental, I'm just fine with that.
There's nothing in this Universe with the power to control you without your consent unless it's 'manufactured' as Noam Chomsky would say.
The power of suggestion, in this case smoking is considered attractive, macho and fashionable people smoke.
Thankfully, most tobacco advertising is banned, there used to be car racing teams with the same name as cigarette brands.
Alcohol as well, sitting around with friends, and it may start flowing.
Sex also, how many 18 year old virgins around?
There are reports of 14 year olds telling their peers that they are inadequate if they are still virgins...so the rest follow.
And weirdest of all, magazine articles telling 70 year old ladies they must have sex, going on to describe lubricants...
Look at all the Western (outdoor) films, John Wayne and other Hollywood stars, they all smoked.
How may people watched them smoke, and thought of it as normal or attractive social activity...I have not seen the studies.
Bear in mind that due to high taxes, and smoking bans in public places, the sales of cigarettes have reduced in many countries.
So the tobacco companies, there a re only about 5 big companies really, are shifting to newer markets, and branching out to different business areas.
I have already described how Humphrey Bogart died, he used to call cigarettes 'coffin nails'.
Appropriate, I think.
And by the way, the oral cancer patient described in Post #211 died yesterday.
We see much more oral cancers here, due to the use of chewing tobacco, and 'bidis', which are used by poor people, with poor nutrition, sometimes to suppress hunger.
And I can tell you from personal experience that a bidi is a stronger hit than a cigarette, in spite of its much lower tobacco content.
So a person smoking that is poor, and badly nourished, asking for trouble.
In the old Victorian novels, they used to say 'died of consumption', later it was found to be TB, or cancer.
People still died, they just got a better idea of the disease.
Today is World Cancer Day. Take care, sorry for the slightly rambling post.
Thankfully, most tobacco advertising is banned, there used to be car racing teams with the same name as cigarette brands.
Alcohol as well, sitting around with friends, and it may start flowing.
Sex also, how many 18 year old virgins around?
There are reports of 14 year olds telling their peers that they are inadequate if they are still virgins...so the rest follow.
And weirdest of all, magazine articles telling 70 year old ladies they must have sex, going on to describe lubricants...
Look at all the Western (outdoor) films, John Wayne and other Hollywood stars, they all smoked.
How may people watched them smoke, and thought of it as normal or attractive social activity...I have not seen the studies.
Bear in mind that due to high taxes, and smoking bans in public places, the sales of cigarettes have reduced in many countries.
So the tobacco companies, there a re only about 5 big companies really, are shifting to newer markets, and branching out to different business areas.
I have already described how Humphrey Bogart died, he used to call cigarettes 'coffin nails'.
Appropriate, I think.
And by the way, the oral cancer patient described in Post #211 died yesterday.
We see much more oral cancers here, due to the use of chewing tobacco, and 'bidis', which are used by poor people, with poor nutrition, sometimes to suppress hunger.
And I can tell you from personal experience that a bidi is a stronger hit than a cigarette, in spite of its much lower tobacco content.
So a person smoking that is poor, and badly nourished, asking for trouble.
In the old Victorian novels, they used to say 'died of consumption', later it was found to be TB, or cancer.
People still died, they just got a better idea of the disease.
Today is World Cancer Day. Take care, sorry for the slightly rambling post.
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Beyond an initial allowance for the equivalent of the [5 stages of grief], I share your abhorrence of the [victim rationalization mentality], it is certain to get a rise out of me.
So I believe I understand the position, argument, and approach. "Addiction" = [victimhood]
An approach from empathy and helpfulness might look like: "Hello again! It looks like you feel you have no control over yourself or your life, that's not actually true. While you may have some challenges that other folks do not, you can overcome them. Here, let me help you. Remember the US Marines 'Improvise, adapt, and overcome'? That's a good approach to life, although if that doesn't speak to you, there are others. Where do you want to start?"
Note: empathy and helpfulness includes "Tough Love" done correctly.
I simply find it more effective to try helping someone identify they are standing in a hole and help them get out, rather than berating them for stepping in to the hole and not getting out all by themselves.
I believe the position, argument, and approach - or more specifically the presentation - you espouse is disappointing and counter-productive, since while it may stir a reactionary "I'll prove you wrong" in a couple folks, in the rest I believe it makes the problem worse (thus I see you exacerbating [victimhood] which drives this response breaking my promise ... ).
A judgmental [I escaped by the skin of my teeth (twice now!), why haven't you done the same?] bringing shame, is now topped off with infantilization [you are a 3-4 year old, as 5-6 year olds should have figured this out by now], which is perversely essentially the same accusation levied against folks using the word "addiction".
If [victimhood] is your primary issue, maybe a more direct analogy would be amputation rather than height. Although I am not personally experienced with this (only news and internet articles) it would seem to have similar aspects with regard to that aspect of attitude and [victimhood]. Where I also believe an empathetic and helpful approach will work better than berating.
While I violently disagree with your presentation and approach, I generally share a number of foundational concerns. However, I believe I disagree with the argument that [moderation > abstinence], are you smoking in moderation?
Addiction goes far beyond concious reasoning. Often addicts say, hey, I'll stop tomorrow, if you only give me just one more shot.
Even doctors that are confronted with destroyed lungs sometime still smoke themselves. It's beyond reasoning.
Jan
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