mac said:
(JPK) You know I do read these threads. Been reading this one from day one. Yes, what I am offering for the NaO is similar to what SL offers for the Orion, or what just about any other "kit" seller offers to the DIY community. What else is there except plans, crossovers and cabinets? I haven't chimed in on this thread because since I am now actually trying to sell a product I don't feel it is proper to express an opinion one way or the other about the Pluto, or any other product. Seems there have been a variety of comments here in that regard.
As for SL, I don't know why he stopped posting at MAD (well I actually have a good idea but I'll keep it to myself). I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with the exchanges we had in the past as any disagreement basically had to do with U-frame woofers and TP crossovers. We agreed on more things than we disagree on. As ScottG indicated the only Orion/Phoenix criticism I have very made is that I disagree with the multitude of opamps and the all active approach. Did then, still do now. It's overly complex IMO, and a hybrid approach such as the NaO makes a lot more sense to me.
I make no apology for coming off rude at times because sometimes it is necessary to be rather direct to correct some of the incorrect thinking that occurs on these boards. It's always nice to be polite, but when misconceptions continue on, polite comments get dismissed or forgotten. A direct, blunt statement will attract more attention and provoke more thought, and I'm not afraid of being disliked by people who don't know me personally.
Now mac, frankly, you seem to have had a vendetta against me and the NaO since I introduced the NaO, as wittnessed by posts on this board as far back as October or November, or so, of last year, and you seem to jump in at any chance you get to bring up my name in a negative light and to slam the NaO, which you have never heard. There isn’t much I can do about it except ignore it which I pretty much do at this point. The NaO and other speaker systems I will be introducing over the next year will stand on their own merits. Those who take the time to listen to them will make there own evaluations.
My home is always open to anyone who would care to make an appointment to come over and audition the NaO including both mac and akunec.
mac said:
Oh did I incorrectly proclaim? Try reading the undercurrent of SL's faq you posted. It backs-up EXACTLY what I said. Virtually everything about the Orion's claim to "betterment" is the result of better drivers. The ONLY technically siginificant difference between the two is an MTM vs. a TM panel. Sure it has a "wider" vertical polar response, but at the same time it is more suseptible to floor reflections.
I think you are getting caught up with is "design" as design+drivers - vs. my meaning of design as: basic design.
Rather than taking up time on why a two driver solution would be more dynamic (given the same drivers), or even getting to your pointed lack of response to low freq. extension for a given spl, lets look at this from a different perspective..
If you "throw" drivers into the "mix" - which do you think will sound better: a Phoenix with the same MT drivers that the Orion uses (though with obviously 2 of the excel units per speaker) but with 2 (or 4 in a double stack) of the peerless 12 inch drivers per speaker, or the Orion?
"If you "throw" drivers into the "mix" - which do you think will sound better: a Phoenix with the same MT drivers that the Orion uses (though with obviously with 2 of the excel units per speaker) but with 2 (or 4 in a double stack) of the peerless 12 inch drivers per speaker, or the Orion?"
I'm with you - I'd do a "Hyper-Orion" (aka "Bob" - I forget who built this but there's a link on SL's site) - MTM with Excel drivers & 12" XLSs in the Orion dipole fashion. More like the Audio Artistry Beethovens & probably kicks a**. 😉
I'm with you - I'd do a "Hyper-Orion" (aka "Bob" - I forget who built this but there's a link on SL's site) - MTM with Excel drivers & 12" XLSs in the Orion dipole fashion. More like the Audio Artistry Beethovens & probably kicks a**. 😉
sdclc126 said:
missed this statement b4 - but again the only way I'll respond is if another thread is started.
ScottG said:
Yes. That's what I'd call your "Under SL's own admission the Orion is the lesser "design"." statement.
ScottG said:
Yeah, I've read everything on his site more than a couple of times.
ScottG said:
No need for me to restate anything that SL's already extensively documented on his site. If you'd like to enlighten yourself I can provide you with specific links. Or, from his main page there's a site index.
ScottG said:
That question is irreverent WRT to your original "the Orion is the lesser" proclamation. SL has stated that he has no plans of either redesigning the Phoenix or building a "better" Orion.
If you think you can build a better speaker than what SL has done to date, I say go for it. 🙂
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
ScottG said:
Don't think this is gonna happen - we've kinda gone off on some other tangents - very interesting ones though - I'm enjoying this thread immensely. Fascinating to watch these things evolve.
mac said:
I'm not sure anyone is claiming that (except maybe NaO John
😀 ), but I'm quite impressed with your own collection!
BTW - John - I still think you're arrogant and rude - and there's never any justification for it - PERIOD. Calling SL's Orion the "wrong" speaker is irresponsible and immature, at best, and certainly not in the realm of a friendly rivalry.
And who would WANT to get to know you personally when you act the way you do here? If you don't care what people think of you, expect the attacks you've been getting...and DON'T expect to sell a lot of speakers.
Try just being nice - it works.
john k... said:
John, Contrary to what some other less talented speaker designers would like you to believe [edited: nobody that has posted in this thread], I have no vendetta against either you or your design(s). When one of your loyal followers [edited: ScottG] started bashing SL and one of his designs in this thread I felt the need to correct him.
The only thing I resent about your recent foray into dipole speaker "design" is that for the longest time you argued with SL how dipole speakers were inferior. Now all of a sudden you've taken an about face and are now selling a speaker which greatly resembles a Linkwitz Phoenix. (Yeah, I understand all the subtitle differences).
Also, I would have thought that all the Transient Perfect research you've done in the past (and continue to do) would have dictated you build something that had a semblance of TP aspects. I'm very curious how you reconcile this with your NaO design. Please set me straight.
Rgds, mac.
"John, Contrary to what some other less talented speaker designers would like you to believe, I have no vendetta against either you or your design(s). When one of your loyal followers started bashing SL and one of his designs in this thread I felt the need to correct him."
EEK! That may have been me - I actually started this whole thread and wow look where its gone!! If it was me I want to set the record straight and say I am definitely NOT one of John's loyal followers!! I've taken my lumps here for my Pluto critique, and justly so - mine was a knee-jerk reaction, and now that all of you more educated builders have set me straight I'm very intrigued with building a Pluto "knock-off"!
Still friends? 🙁
EEK! That may have been me - I actually started this whole thread and wow look where its gone!! If it was me I want to set the record straight and say I am definitely NOT one of John's loyal followers!! I've taken my lumps here for my Pluto critique, and justly so - mine was a knee-jerk reaction, and now that all of you more educated builders have set me straight I'm very intrigued with building a Pluto "knock-off"!
Still friends? 🙁
Oh, an admission does not have to be a pointed statement..
SL has provided the context for his assertions - If you choose to leave them out that context - so be it.
At this point though I think you are either deluding yourself OR are just being argumentitive (for whatever reason). To this I'll I can say is that I'll waste no more time with you on this point.
SL has provided the context for his assertions - If you choose to leave them out that context - so be it.
At this point though I think you are either deluding yourself OR are just being argumentitive (for whatever reason). To this I'll I can say is that I'll waste no more time with you on this point.
sdclc126 said:
No that was an uncalled for blanket statement - at no point did you appear to be a "loyal follower". Perhaps he was referring to me?😱 If so then he was jumping to conclusions that are unfounded - I "loyally" follow no one (more over I never "bashed" SL). I think this is just the product of a minor flaming (which perhaps if taken over multiple posts as John has suggested, is major)..
ScottG said:
Scott, Your initial statement about the Orion vs. the Phoenix, taken either in or out of context, was simply wrong.
If your statement was based solely on the Phoenix being able to play n db louder than the Orion in the subsonic bass region then perhaps you have a valid point. However, if that's your sole criteria for evaluating a speaker I'd assert that a set of “disco-ready” Cerwin Vega speakers might perform even better.
Btw, I provided links to SL's statements in my prior posts so that they could be taken in full context.
ScottG said:
Yes. Thank you for the clarification.
Rgds,
mac
Scott I understand what you're saying, even if others don't.
SL wasn't taken each design as a whole, including drivers when he made that assertion. He was talking about the technical aspects of the two systems and whilst neither is perfect (orion nor phoenix) the phoenix did have some stronger points than Orion.
Like I said neither is perfect, is there anything that is?
Mac, I've emailed SL posing this very same question as I've always been very interested to build either of the designs.
I'll post back here with the reply which will hopefully, though I doubt, help people better understand an Orion vs. Phoenix comparison. Personally I think the designs have to many differences to be comparible like for like but can be assessed on purely technical aspects.
SL wasn't taken each design as a whole, including drivers when he made that assertion. He was talking about the technical aspects of the two systems and whilst neither is perfect (orion nor phoenix) the phoenix did have some stronger points than Orion.
Like I said neither is perfect, is there anything that is?
Mac, I've emailed SL posing this very same question as I've always been very interested to build either of the designs.
I'll post back here with the reply which will hopefully, though I doubt, help people better understand an Orion vs. Phoenix comparison. Personally I think the designs have to many differences to be comparible like for like but can be assessed on purely technical aspects.
john k... said:
He's probably referring to this post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=592476#post592476
Davey.
I've tried to stay on the sidelines for most of this thread, but since JohnK has posted, I thought I would chime in my 2 cents. Not about the merits of the Pluto, but rather about the SL vs JohnK thing that arises on several boards (Mad, PE, etc.). I have never met either person, but from all accounts, both are very nice, well educated individuals. SL's website speaks for itself, its a virtual Bible for the DIYer IMHO and Johnk is obviously very technically proficient - his design speaks for itself also. I did e-mail SL once, pictures of my Orion "Mutants" and thanks for the inspiration for the design. He was kind enough to reply. I have never tried to contact JohnK, even though I would love to hear his opinion on several technical issues. My main reason is that shortly after becoming a member of this site, I recall seeing a post where a gentleman was going to be building an Orion and (I can't recall exactly) had questions about the design. I believe the first person to respong was JohnK. His response was - in effect - "you are building the WRONG speaker, here is my NaO site...".
I thought it was one of the most absurd statements I had ever read on a DIYer site (there have been others that were close of course). At best it was a very poor choice of words. At worst - it plays into some Macs opinions of JohnK. John, if you are reading this, here is your chance to explain. I can't begin to match the engineering/scientific knowledge that both you and SL possess. I read these boards in search of knowledge. I find the kind of statement that you made quite unbecoming of a person, who by many accounts, is a very nice gentleman.
Ok, back to the sidelines.........
- AJ
I thought it was one of the most absurd statements I had ever read on a DIYer site (there have been others that were close of course). At best it was a very poor choice of words. At worst - it plays into some Macs opinions of JohnK. John, if you are reading this, here is your chance to explain. I can't begin to match the engineering/scientific knowledge that both you and SL possess. I read these boards in search of knowledge. I find the kind of statement that you made quite unbecoming of a person, who by many accounts, is a very nice gentleman.
Ok, back to the sidelines.........
- AJ
AJinFLA said:
And while he's at it I hope he answers my question that he's been avoiding answering for some time now. I'll restate it here again for clarity:
John, how do you reconcile offering your NaO dipole design which seems to be in conflict with your past and ongoing Transient Perfect research?
Rgds,
mac.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.