sdclc126 said:Part of my original "criticism" of the design was the relative financial emphasis of electronics over drivers, etc., and I suggested perhaps a better (sounding) speaker could be had for the money, with passive x-over & external amps.
Maybe I should start a whole new thread here (maybe I will anyway), but this could be a fun thought experiment: Let's all pretend we're given $900 to build any speaker we can come up with - any design/drivers/electronics, etc. What would YOU build? And do you think you might be able to better the Pluto?
C'mon - this should be fun - let's have a "What I Would Build With $900 Contest!"
start it - but set some more specific ground rules on the $900 to be fair to the Pluto.. If you do I'll join in.
ScottG said:
Well I think the only necessary ground rule would be the $900 budget.
I'm not sure what you mean by being "fair" to the Pluto - what would qualify as being unfair? The whole idea is to design a speaker for the same price and see what people come up with. The fewer rules the more possibilities.
If you think there should be some other rules go ahead and suggest them. Perhaps we should start the contest as a new thread to get some fresh participants, let people familiarize themselves with the Pluto, then chime in with whatever ground rules they think appropriate - maybe we can have a moderator and a judging panel and award the winner? (Not with 900 bucks - I don't have it.)
😀
sdclc126 said:C'mon - this should be fun - let's have a "What I Would Build With $900 Contest!"
That would be $900 including amplification, right?
Linkwitz has used active xovers a lot in his designs mainly because of the type of speakers he is building.
Most of the open baffle type speakers are NOT intended as budget designs and are really designed as a reference project. Active xovers offer the flexability linkwitz required in his designs to make the orion and phoenix possible. I cannot think of anything LW could have done WRT those designs which could have made them better or simpler without detracting from the overall quality. Yes he could change the design but thats not what this is about. He wants to make significant other friendly speakers that are no compromise and he has largely succeeded.
Now onto the pluto, this is LW idea of a second rate speaker when compared to the orion and phoenix. I dont think he is really meaning to create a budget design here more a cheaper version of the other two. If the pluto costs $900 then so be it, its a lot cheaper then the others he makes. LW likes active xovers and is a strong advocate of them, its almost his "trademark" along with open baffle, hes not going to remove the active if he feels they do offer superior performance, they do. Your $900 gets you quite a lot actually, you get a pair of speakers, xover and amplifiers. I think this is quite reasonable, you do get the amps right??
OK bottom line is you could make a speaker using the same peerless HDS unit and a vifa XT25 using passive xover and arrive at a cost of around $300. We dont know what the pluto sounds like but that tweeter is meant to suck according to Zaph (I think), so I think the passive has a good chance of sounding better and IMO looking a damn sight better. That $300 included some sexy veneer from ebay and piano gloss finish. Those pipes look as if they should be placed well away from any listening room. Ofcourse you dont have an amplifier to hook them up to but with $600 left to spend you could get a superb DIY effort or a good consumer speaker.
Really though this is all speculation, OK its VERY good educated speculation but we have still not listened to the pluto.
Most of the open baffle type speakers are NOT intended as budget designs and are really designed as a reference project. Active xovers offer the flexability linkwitz required in his designs to make the orion and phoenix possible. I cannot think of anything LW could have done WRT those designs which could have made them better or simpler without detracting from the overall quality. Yes he could change the design but thats not what this is about. He wants to make significant other friendly speakers that are no compromise and he has largely succeeded.
Now onto the pluto, this is LW idea of a second rate speaker when compared to the orion and phoenix. I dont think he is really meaning to create a budget design here more a cheaper version of the other two. If the pluto costs $900 then so be it, its a lot cheaper then the others he makes. LW likes active xovers and is a strong advocate of them, its almost his "trademark" along with open baffle, hes not going to remove the active if he feels they do offer superior performance, they do. Your $900 gets you quite a lot actually, you get a pair of speakers, xover and amplifiers. I think this is quite reasonable, you do get the amps right??
OK bottom line is you could make a speaker using the same peerless HDS unit and a vifa XT25 using passive xover and arrive at a cost of around $300. We dont know what the pluto sounds like but that tweeter is meant to suck according to Zaph (I think), so I think the passive has a good chance of sounding better and IMO looking a damn sight better. That $300 included some sexy veneer from ebay and piano gloss finish. Those pipes look as if they should be placed well away from any listening room. Ofcourse you dont have an amplifier to hook them up to but with $600 left to spend you could get a superb DIY effort or a good consumer speaker.
Really though this is all speculation, OK its VERY good educated speculation but we have still not listened to the pluto.
Gound Rules for "Contest"
OK - it's starting to sound like being "fair" to the Pluto would be to use active filters and built-in amplification, but one of my original thoughts was that $900 might be better spent emphasizing drivers over electronics, but people seem to be a little stuck keeping it active.
If you WANT to do that go right ahead, but what I really had in mind for the contest was: "Build a speaker (pair) for $900 - ANY design/concept - 2-way, 3-way, active, passive, dipole, bipole tripole, quadrupole, tower, cones, domes, ribbons, tin cans - ANYTHING - the single constraint is the price tag.
To me this would allow for the greatest breadth of thought and possibilities. But if that's too broad, and I'm beginning to think that it is, then yes - let's go ahead and lay out the ground rules.
Personally I'd like to see passive electronics with external (i.e., one's EXISTING) amps - could you make a better sounding speaker this way than the Pluto?
OK - it's starting to sound like being "fair" to the Pluto would be to use active filters and built-in amplification, but one of my original thoughts was that $900 might be better spent emphasizing drivers over electronics, but people seem to be a little stuck keeping it active.
If you WANT to do that go right ahead, but what I really had in mind for the contest was: "Build a speaker (pair) for $900 - ANY design/concept - 2-way, 3-way, active, passive, dipole, bipole tripole, quadrupole, tower, cones, domes, ribbons, tin cans - ANYTHING - the single constraint is the price tag.
To me this would allow for the greatest breadth of thought and possibilities. But if that's too broad, and I'm beginning to think that it is, then yes - let's go ahead and lay out the ground rules.
Personally I'd like to see passive electronics with external (i.e., one's EXISTING) amps - could you make a better sounding speaker this way than the Pluto?
a point is.....
.. that if basically anyone else except SL came up with this design, it would be ignored or just laughed at.
I admit to puzzlement !!
.. that if basically anyone else except SL came up with this design, it would be ignored or just laughed at.
I admit to puzzlement !!
I dont think there is anything actually wrong with this design as per say, its just that tweeter....
sdclc126 - I understand what you are saying but..
Thats entirely the point how much did your amp cost?
Sure I could build a superb set of speakers that should wipe the floor with the pluto, for $900. But my amplifiers cost £400 DIY = about £2000+ commercial. So deduct that from the $900 and your left with around $200 for the speakers if it all DIY, which it obviously is considering we are building the speakers in the 1st place.
sdclc126 - I understand what you are saying but..
Thats entirely the point how much did your amp cost?
Sure I could build a superb set of speakers that should wipe the floor with the pluto, for $900. But my amplifiers cost £400 DIY = about £2000+ commercial. So deduct that from the $900 and your left with around $200 for the speakers if it all DIY, which it obviously is considering we are building the speakers in the 1st place.
I'm not getting involved in this mess, but if you're going to have a design contest, and to be fair to the pluto, the $900 must include amplification. I don't care if it's active/passive/whatever.
But more importantly, how will you determine who comes up with the best design? 😱
But more importantly, how will you determine who comes up with the best design? 😱
The "Winner"
I honestly hadn't intended there to be a "best" design - I thought it would just be a fun exercise to see how many different ideas would come from it, and the ensuing discussions that would spawn.
And yeah - this has gotten kinda messy, but it does happen a lot whenever something "new" arrives on the scene.
I honestly hadn't intended there to be a "best" design - I thought it would just be a fun exercise to see how many different ideas would come from it, and the ensuing discussions that would spawn.
And yeah - this has gotten kinda messy, but it does happen a lot whenever something "new" arrives on the scene.
5th element said:
Point taken - fair enough - so sounds like some ground rules are being laid out - this is progress.
Re: a point is.....
Yup - that's what I mentioned earlier in the thread. It would be ignored and/or laughed at without a single one of us having heard it - and in my opinion that's perfectly OK - I've seen zillions of posts here just like that.
Certainly those familiar with at least the drivers in the Pluto will have some very credible input on this subject, and some of them have offered it here.
We don't have to experience something first hand to have an educated opinion about it. People do this every day about all kinds of things - it's normal. A structural engineer can look at a bridge design and have opinions on whether it is safe or not - without building it; granted audio is infinitely more subjective, but if one knows audio, one's opinions about an audio design are more sound than one who doesn't.
I wonder if we flipped this whole thing around and imagined asking SL for his opinion(s) on designs he'd never tested/built/heard - I'll bet he'd have them (if he decided to respond) - and I'll bet we'd all listen.
Andy Graddon said:.. that if basically anyone else except SL came up with this design, it would be ignored or just laughed at.
I admit to puzzlement !!
Yup - that's what I mentioned earlier in the thread. It would be ignored and/or laughed at without a single one of us having heard it - and in my opinion that's perfectly OK - I've seen zillions of posts here just like that.
Certainly those familiar with at least the drivers in the Pluto will have some very credible input on this subject, and some of them have offered it here.
We don't have to experience something first hand to have an educated opinion about it. People do this every day about all kinds of things - it's normal. A structural engineer can look at a bridge design and have opinions on whether it is safe or not - without building it; granted audio is infinitely more subjective, but if one knows audio, one's opinions about an audio design are more sound than one who doesn't.
I wonder if we flipped this whole thing around and imagined asking SL for his opinion(s) on designs he'd never tested/built/heard - I'll bet he'd have them (if he decided to respond) - and I'll bet we'd all listen.
But 'anyone else' did come up with a very similar design, using, I assume, many of the same goals and solutions. I don't believe he was actually laughed at, but pretty much ignored.
It was Dick Olsher with his C.B.A.E. designs for Samahdi Acoustics -
http://www.blackdahlia.com/samadhi/
I prefer his tweeter and its mounting........
.
It was Dick Olsher with his C.B.A.E. designs for Samahdi Acoustics -
http://www.blackdahlia.com/samadhi/
I prefer his tweeter and its mounting........
.
I don't see what the fuss is about. Linkwitz states quite clearly in the first paragraph where he's coming from:
The $900 is with assembled and tested electronics. His estimate if you D-I-Y is $680. So any "contest" should have that price target.
Just my 2c...
The $900 is with assembled and tested electronics. His estimate if you D-I-Y is $680. So any "contest" should have that price target.
Just my 2c...
Right you are - that occurred to me after I made the contest suggestion - $680 it is.
As to SL's stating quite clearly his goals for the Pluto, no one is disputing that - it's his solution I reacted to; lots of ways to skin a cat/lots of ways to go omni.
here's a few others
And IMO, way better looking !!!
http://www.cd-konzert.com/Schnell/VenusBuche.jpg
http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/pics/200312_duevel_venus_pair.jpg
http://www.stereotimes.com/images/mbl101d_black_180x495.jpg
http://www.visaton.com/bilder/fotos/klein/fontana.jpg
http://www.innerear.on.ca/images/orbital.gif
And IMO, way better looking !!!
http://www.cd-konzert.com/Schnell/VenusBuche.jpg
http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/pics/200312_duevel_venus_pair.jpg
http://www.stereotimes.com/images/mbl101d_black_180x495.jpg
http://www.visaton.com/bilder/fotos/klein/fontana.jpg
http://www.innerear.on.ca/images/orbital.gif
5th element said:
remember it is ONLY the stuffed boards that cost $280 each - you still have at least 2 transformers to purchase (assuming the board has its own supply). I assume however that the 900 price includes this.
NOTE: that SL's board is quite complex for the DIY'er whereas the solutions listed below are comparativly simple to "stuff" (or mod) - otherwise I'd calculate each board at the parts price of $190 each.
My thoughts on price vs. performance comparison were a bit different.
1st - more than a little of each board is "wrapped-up" in the crossover (essentially all of it except for the "supply"). A passive crossover will still cost a good bit - especially if premium parts are used.
2nd - consider that most people already have at least 2 channels of amplification. The question then becomes will it be as good (or better) than what SL is offering? Remember, we only look at SL's page for SPEAKER solutions - not amplifiers. So while a comparison here is NOT comperable - it is however realistic (for I believe the average person).
3rd - low cost diy amps (just the stuffed board options) are available for quite a bit less - BrianGT has a variety of VERY refined "gainclone" options available for a more than reas. prices:
http://www.chipamp.com/orders-us.shtml
Also there is Rod Elliot's non-stuffed boards (that ShinOBIWAN is currently building).
And lets not forget the current mod craze with Sonic T-Amps..
Low cost power transformers are also available from sources like PartsExpress.
So on the one hand we can assign a value of $0 for amplification, on the other we could probably go as high as $300 for a low-cost (but VERY high quality) DIY solution.
In all fairness though I think that $200 (as an upper mid-line figure) is a reasonable deduction from the $900 (if you count that particle board will be your case-work as SL does).
So then, IMO we are working with a $700 figure as a MAX. However, what we originally intimated was that a similar quality (but better) solution could be constructed for much LESS. Whats much less? To my mind half that price ($350) is a reas. MAX figure for "much less". So now we have 2 price points for our challenge
1. "a bit better perfomance than the Pluto" - at a max of $350, and
2. "a LOT better performance than the Pluto" - at a max of $700
One Final note: This should be started on another thread..
Re: here's a few others
Andy i don't know that the MBL fits in this class....
The pluto is far from inovative, just SL's take on a speaker concept with a long history, going back to at least the Eico HFs90 (1958), Sonab, Hegemans (same Stu of the HFS90), Mirage, Decware, a Myriad of Electrohomes (design award winners -- althou not sonically great).
And PVC pipe has come into its own of late.... on my wed site alone are my toobz
Rob's Audio lego...
Dave Duke's Seraphims
and you have to note Keith's Sentinals
So SL is just taking all these ideas and doing his take on it... i applaud him for continuing to push examples that aren't just plain rectangualr boxes. (i don't see eye-to-eye with most of his design specifics, but he contributes much to the art and to paraphrase what has been said before "there is more than one way to skin a cat)
dave
pmkap said:
Andy Graddon said:
Andy i don't know that the MBL fits in this class....
The pluto is far from inovative, just SL's take on a speaker concept with a long history, going back to at least the Eico HFs90 (1958), Sonab, Hegemans (same Stu of the HFS90), Mirage, Decware, a Myriad of Electrohomes (design award winners -- althou not sonically great).
And PVC pipe has come into its own of late.... on my wed site alone are my toobz
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Rob's Audio lego...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Dave Duke's Seraphims
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
and you have to note Keith's Sentinals
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
So SL is just taking all these ideas and doing his take on it... i applaud him for continuing to push examples that aren't just plain rectangualr boxes. (i don't see eye-to-eye with most of his design specifics, but he contributes much to the art and to paraphrase what has been said before "there is more than one way to skin a cat)
dave
Attachments
To the Frugal-phile (tm) $900 is a big budget... how about bipolar Fostex FE108ES in a back-loaded horn (this one is in the early design phases) and 4 channels of EL84 SE amplification (it is fair to use the "junk" box??) even enuff money left over for a pair of subs (althou not at the $680 budget)
dave
dave
never the less....
.. and despite the stable it comes from, I really can't see it being something people will rush out to build.
I can see maybe a few passive clones appearing though.
.. and despite the stable it comes from, I really can't see it being something people will rush out to build.
I can see maybe a few passive clones appearing though.
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