Ok here maybe a really retarded question. but i think i might be doing something wrong.
The question in general how do you connect a single ended esl? so one stator and one membrane.
yes i know it is not as good as a normal pp, but thats not the point right now 🙂
So i connect the bias to the membrane that has a moderate high resistance coating.
then i connect one of the outputs of the trannie to the stator, and the other end on the winding from the trannie to the bias suplly 0, (the spot where you normally would connect the center tap of the transformer) the center tap itself i leave unused
Is that correct ? i noticed a rather big difference in output vs pushpull. is this the 6dB you gain with 2 stators ? or am i missing something.
i looked evey where and everyone mention single end ESL but never seen one hooked up and what besides distortion are the results. i no there was a thread somewhere here but i cant find it back 🙁
i wanted to try a weird idea i had of using the mylar that is unused in the magnetic planar in between the magnets to give it some motion and hopefull could increase the breakup frequencies because of the space in between the wires. or extend the high frequencies a bit. so since i dont want to add metal i thought about single end (planar speaker is single end as well) although this could also work great in a complete pp setup 🙂 my thinking was to glue conductive fabric i used in some ESL builds directly on the magnet structure, acting as a stator for the ESL part.
If you got any smart ideas to keep costs down on the transformer or increase output on the cheap im all ears 🙂 just want to see what happens when you drive them with both Electrostatic and Electromagnetic at the same time
inverted might even be a good idea to keep the Music signal on the foil ? or else the stator fabric might play alon on top of thos magnets ? although that relie on current offcourse to create an magnetic field and not so much high voltage
when i think of it 🙂 in a push pull setup the stator of the esl element would be on the inside of the planar 🙂 rahter save, and the mesh will act like the nylon in a quad at the same time dampening 🙂
The question in general how do you connect a single ended esl? so one stator and one membrane.
yes i know it is not as good as a normal pp, but thats not the point right now 🙂
So i connect the bias to the membrane that has a moderate high resistance coating.
then i connect one of the outputs of the trannie to the stator, and the other end on the winding from the trannie to the bias suplly 0, (the spot where you normally would connect the center tap of the transformer) the center tap itself i leave unused
Is that correct ? i noticed a rather big difference in output vs pushpull. is this the 6dB you gain with 2 stators ? or am i missing something.
i looked evey where and everyone mention single end ESL but never seen one hooked up and what besides distortion are the results. i no there was a thread somewhere here but i cant find it back 🙁
i wanted to try a weird idea i had of using the mylar that is unused in the magnetic planar in between the magnets to give it some motion and hopefull could increase the breakup frequencies because of the space in between the wires. or extend the high frequencies a bit. so since i dont want to add metal i thought about single end (planar speaker is single end as well) although this could also work great in a complete pp setup 🙂 my thinking was to glue conductive fabric i used in some ESL builds directly on the magnet structure, acting as a stator for the ESL part.
If you got any smart ideas to keep costs down on the transformer or increase output on the cheap im all ears 🙂 just want to see what happens when you drive them with both Electrostatic and Electromagnetic at the same time
inverted might even be a good idea to keep the Music signal on the foil ? or else the stator fabric might play alon on top of thos magnets ? although that relie on current offcourse to create an magnetic field and not so much high voltage
when i think of it 🙂 in a push pull setup the stator of the esl element would be on the inside of the planar 🙂 rahter save, and the mesh will act like the nylon in a quad at the same time dampening 🙂
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Aren't you making an unintended low-pass filter consisting of the membrane coating resistance and membrane to stator capacitance?
In a push-pull electrostatic speaker, you can use a high-resistance coating because the charge on the membrane doesn't have to move, in fact the speaker distorts less when the charge doesn't move. Single-ended electrostatic tweeters are sometimes found in antique radios, but those have highly conductive membranes.
funny you say , it was sort something i did not ask but thought about 🙂 haha
oke well if so will the audio signal still remains on the the stator ? or does it become an inverted esl as well ? i do have sound be it not that loud 🙁
Ooh i found some of the threads
G.E. Flat tweeters. What are they?
Philco Stereo Phone Electrostatic
And the picture i was looking for posted by Bolsert, noone mentions the type of coating trough.
Any one know if you need a a low resistive coating to be able to use this concept ?
There is is also a capacitor in the schematic ? is it needed ? and what kind of should i use
G.E. Flat tweeters. What are they?
Philco Stereo Phone Electrostatic
And the picture i was looking for posted by Bolsert, noone mentions the type of coating trough.
Any one know if you need a a low resistive coating to be able to use this concept ?
There is is also a capacitor in the schematic ? is it needed ? and what kind of should i use
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weird i dont get any sound using the schematic 🙁 wtf am i doing 🙂
is the resistor in series with the bias of importance ? i mean it is not for the push pull to work at least 🙂
is the resistor in series with the bias of importance ? i mean it is not for the push pull to work at least 🙂
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Yes, for single ended operation it is important.
Try R in the 1Mohm to 10Mohm range and C in the 0.01uF to 0.05uF range and you should get output.
Yes, a low resistance coating is required.
Another single-ended tweeter thread here:
HELP! Low tweeter output, hybrid esl
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Aah thx again ! I am.gone aee what it does. Btw any clue on how kow th resistance might need to be ? On the foil ?
Ok i got sound out of it 🙂 be is compared to the magnetpic planar on the same foil, 15 db down or so 🙂 not very usefull 🙂 haha
as coating i used graphite measuring somewhere in the region of 12K Ohm, or is that even to high ? if so then only metalized mylar is an option 🙁
well always good to try 🙂 but i dont think i will use this idea haha
here a dirty measurement dB scale is not calibrated, so only differences are correct 🙂
as coating i used graphite measuring somewhere in the region of 12K Ohm, or is that even to high ? if so then only metalized mylar is an option 🙁
well always good to try 🙂 but i dont think i will use this idea haha
here a dirty measurement dB scale is not calibrated, so only differences are correct 🙂
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Oh i forgot these test panels where only 0.9 ohm :O haha so it is not at all fair to compare to be honest 🙂
Another thing, i got rather ok sound then it is sounding weirder and weirder and then allot of distortion... 🙁 single end is harder to do then a normal one wtf 🙂
Ok so i noticed ticks and plops coming from the cap. so i guess it has to be a high voltage cap ? a 250volt 0.047uF wont cut it 🙂 it sparks over apparently 🙂
i think the problem is i use a spacing of 1mm so have to have some bias on the foil to be of any use. this cap is connected to the bias trough the resistors to one of the transformer output... my guess in most designs they used a bias of only 300-400volt and a really small spacing (for efficiency )so the cap is fine with that,but with 2kv bias .... not so much 🙂 haha
Another thing, i got rather ok sound then it is sounding weirder and weirder and then allot of distortion... 🙁 single end is harder to do then a normal one wtf 🙂
Ok so i noticed ticks and plops coming from the cap. so i guess it has to be a high voltage cap ? a 250volt 0.047uF wont cut it 🙂 it sparks over apparently 🙂
i think the problem is i use a spacing of 1mm so have to have some bias on the foil to be of any use. this cap is connected to the bias trough the resistors to one of the transformer output... my guess in most designs they used a bias of only 300-400volt and a really small spacing (for efficiency )so the cap is fine with that,but with 2kv bias .... not so much 🙂 haha
As in many things, push-pull is much more efficient than single ended.
Aside from efficiency, a push-pull ESL is inherently low distortion compared to single-ended. The force on the diaphragm is non-linear when referenced to one stator. When there are two stators in push-pull, the non-linear pull of one side cancels the non-linear push of the other side. And vice-versa.
If you think about the expense of having an amplifier, the expense of a step-up transformer and the expense of the HV bias supply, the expense of a second stator is small. There is not a compelling economic reason to make a tweeter SYSTEM that is single-ended.
Just my $0.02. I built a double high stacked pair of Roger Sanders ESLs back in the Speaker Builder Magazine day. They were the size equivalent of Acoustat 2+2s.
Aside from efficiency, a push-pull ESL is inherently low distortion compared to single-ended. The force on the diaphragm is non-linear when referenced to one stator. When there are two stators in push-pull, the non-linear pull of one side cancels the non-linear push of the other side. And vice-versa.
If you think about the expense of having an amplifier, the expense of a step-up transformer and the expense of the HV bias supply, the expense of a second stator is small. There is not a compelling economic reason to make a tweeter SYSTEM that is single-ended.
Just my $0.02. I built a double high stacked pair of Roger Sanders ESLs back in the Speaker Builder Magazine day. They were the size equivalent of Acoustat 2+2s.
i am aware of all of that 🙂 as mentioned in the first post 🙂
But what if you could not add a front stator ? 🙂
and there is always a reason to try stuff 🙂 i might learn something and it might be useful for another application 🙂
But what if you could not add a front stator ? 🙂
and there is always a reason to try stuff 🙂 i might learn something and it might be useful for another application 🙂
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well anyways. for this purpose it is a mess 🙂 might need to look into it another time. for now not great results 🙂 but i wondered about it for a while so 🙂 glad i tried anyways
Yeah...I probably should have mentioned that, sorry.
Oh well, you figured it out, it only cost you a capacitor, and now you are less likely to forget 😉
Like you I enjoy experimenting with different setups. Besides helping you appreciate the improvements gained by better configurations, you never know when something you learn might come in handy.
Thx bolserts, 🙂 yeah everything you did once can trigger you when you do something else. the more you know the better of course 🙂 i tend to forget but then i can look it up again as long as the basics are solid in my memory it is all good haha 🙂
And thx for all the help as usual very appreciated !!!! i always know i get a solid answer from you so i can move along 🙂
And thx for all the help as usual very appreciated !!!! i always know i get a solid answer from you so i can move along 🙂
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