And I still think after more than 30 years of messing with hifi, that people such as yourself completely ignore that the brain plays a surprisingly important role in all this (all of our perception occurs in the brain, none of it in our ears).
We don't know everything, but we do know that our senses can be embarrassingly unreliable and that it's trivially easy to get people to perceive differences even when there are none. All the ego, vanity and hubris in the world doesn't change that.
se
The differences between cables are also available, measurable and shown on spec sheets by their manufacturers.
I'll try again, can you show me the EFFECTS these differences make to the signal. I don't care if it's a resistor or a cable, can the difference which you agree exists,(in the case of resistors) be actually shown. Put another way, imagine you don't know a resistor's composition so if you change it for a different type and it makes a difference to the sound, can you show this difference on a scope for us to see. Or do you trust your ears and say I can't show this but I know it exists?
The same is true of differing cables, their effect on sound can not currently be demonstrated but can sometimes be noticeable.
Why the hangup on scopes? There are other instruments out there. VCR can be measured easily on a bridge or a high resolution voltmeter used with a variable DC supply; if severe, it can even be measured by harmonic distortion. Excess noise is measured with a spectrum analyzer. The effects in circuits are totally predictable. There's really no magic here.
Changing from copper to silver won't change an interconnect's capacitance or inductance. The DCR will change slightly (there were some order of magnitude examples given earlier in the thread).
This is the problem, there are many truths, too many!
What you say is obviously true, perception is our entire world. But if we can't trust our ears the point to all our endeavours here is totally lost. We might as well settle for a cheap one box stereo with mp3 as it's more convenient and measures reasonably well.
Sometimes my system sounds amazing and sometimes quite flat, the mains quality can play a part but I know that it is mainly down to me, how i'm feeling etc etc. But I have ran comparisons between cables over periods of many months as well as short periods. I can easily alter the sound of my system by changing from silver to copper interconnects. It is dependable, repeatable, and over time I have to say I trust what I hear in this instance.
I am beginning to have a real empathy for the poor guy who stood up and said that the earth is not actually flat after all and everyone else is deluded. They said he was mad and that he could not prove it, to their satisfaction.
You should trust your ears. You should also mistrust your lying brain.
If you can hear the difference between a brass and silver RCA plug ears-only, that's remarkable and should be published.
If you can hear the difference between a brass and silver RCA plug ears-only, that's remarkable and should be published.
My God! I give up! are you a politician?
Forget the scope, that's just one example of a tool to measure a signal.
Can you demonstrate (on any available instrument you care to mention) the difference a resistor makes to the signal which passes through it based on it's composition only. Remember I said that you do NOT already know what it is made of so have to identify it's composition purely by measurement of the signal passing through it.
I do not think this is possible but the change in sound is noticeable so it exists.
I now have a headache, I must remember to take no further part in cable discussions. Religion is a touchy subject 😀
Of course. VCR, tempco, excess noise, these are all standard measurements. If what you're asking is about the performance of a circuit using a resistor, please reread my earlier post- in some circuit positions, this is critical, in some, it's not. The former are measurable, the latter generally not.
Here's an example from 56 years ago:
http://www.tubecad.com/2007/12/23/The Sad Tale of a Half-Watt Resistor.pdf
I'm still not sure of the relevance of resistor measurements to the material composition of RCA plugs. Very different phenomena, different needs- RCA plugs need surfaces which don't corrode and that's pretty much it.
I was actually asking if the performance of a circuit using say a carbon film resistor could be shown to differ by measurements when that same resistor is substituted by say a metal film type. This is not something I have previously believed could be shown but could be heard.
If you can indeed measure said differences and prove resistor type in this manner then I thank you, you have indeed surprised me and added to my knowledge.
So if different resistor composition can bring an audible change, why would different cable compositions not do likewise? This was my original point and i'm still not convinced it has been properly answered. Anyway i'm off to bed.
Silante
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It may be a lie, but it's more likely a claim made from people who haven't really done experiments to try to verify it.
Now just a thought, but isn't the use of silver cable mitigated by all the copper tracks on a PCB?
SY I am disappointed, you can't or wont answer my question, so you change the subject, are you running for office?
btw the o/p already decided on plugs some time back, Personally I have never heard differences between well made plugs so I can't help you there.
btw the o/p already decided on plugs some time back, Personally I have never heard differences between well made plugs so I can't help you there.
Probably but a clinical sounding solid state amp hardwired with silver cable AND silver interconnects would not be something I would want, you can over do anything 😀
Or say an ultrasonic imager or similar, which work quite well on copper....
If it is a quantum effect as RayCTech claims then this would be lost due to the change in materials, unless a slipstream effect is involved...🙂
If it is a quantum effect as RayCTech claims then this would be lost due to the change in materials, unless a slipstream effect is involved...🙂
Davym, If you get a chance, have a read of SY's article on double blind testing in Linear Audio number 3 (or is it number 2). I think you will have a different view on what he is saying after that.
All he is saying is that certain things are very unlikely to be audible, but that our brains are very good at tricking us. A simple controlled test is all that is necessary to test whether something is audible or not. If it turns out it is then more investigation to work out what makes it audible is warranted.
Have you ever heard of the tests where people were told that we are now switching to the superior interconnects, and all the listeners then said how much of a difference they could hear, describing in detail the differences, when in reality the interconnects were not changed and they were listening to the same ones as previously?
Tony.
All he is saying is that certain things are very unlikely to be audible, but that our brains are very good at tricking us. A simple controlled test is all that is necessary to test whether something is audible or not. If it turns out it is then more investigation to work out what makes it audible is warranted.
Have you ever heard of the tests where people were told that we are now switching to the superior interconnects, and all the listeners then said how much of a difference they could hear, describing in detail the differences, when in reality the interconnects were not changed and they were listening to the same ones as previously?
Tony.
Hi Tony, thanks for your non patronising reply. No I have not heard of the tests you describe, I have however heard of similar tests done in the UK using amplifiers. Some claimed to hear obvious differences when in fact it was the same amp. Our brains are easily tricked, politicians and sales people rely on that fact BUT we have to take seriously any contentious result which is repeatable even if it seems at odds with convention.
One difference I can clearly hear with silver cables is any sibilance, it's still there when I switch to copper cable of the same dimensions and design, but it is much less noticeable. This is probably mostly down to the budget Musical Fidelity amp i'm stuck with at present 🙁 however I did get this issue previously with a Nait 5i, just not as pronounced.
Anyway I am definitely going to bed now, good night gent's 🙂
That's a broad brush, my friend. I love to measure, and I also listen. You have not seen my thread on using bananas, potatoes, steel wool, copper, wine or mud as interconnects, I suppose? The differences CAN be measured, but very few people can tell them apart by listening in a blind test.
You might be surprised!
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