Wavebourn said:
Never mind. I found them in PCBs from computer monitors I saved for parts. 😀
PMA said:
Yep. We are both from the world where orders were not discussed.
"Take a screwdriver and knock in that nail!"
"Sir, it is better to do with a hammer!"
"I don't want you to do better, I want you to be creative!"
Try Welwyn RC55Y 0.1%. Review from the internet are not bad - audio grade.
They are low wattage though - 1/4 W and not exactly cheap, about 1+ Eur/pc from Farnell.
They are low wattage though - 1/4 W and not exactly cheap, about 1+ Eur/pc from Farnell.
Welwyn
The ones I have purchased surplus have steel end caps. Maybe the ones available from Farnell do not.
The Dale/Vishay CMF resistors are very good. The are available in several grades, I use the 0.1 tolerance and T-9 tempco. These run about 20 cents each. The milspec is RN55E*
George
The ones I have purchased surplus have steel end caps. Maybe the ones available from Farnell do not.
The Dale/Vishay CMF resistors are very good. The are available in several grades, I use the 0.1 tolerance and T-9 tempco. These run about 20 cents each. The milspec is RN55E*
George
I can't be bothered to read this whole thread but i would like to say that i can easily hear the difference between Welwyn RC55, MRS25 and Vishay dale RN60 in the feedback loop of my preamp. The RN60 sounds the most natural/neutral to my ears.
I tried some of the very expensive (around £10 each) Vishay bulk foil resistors, they were detailed but rather soft sounding.
I tried some of the very expensive (around £10 each) Vishay bulk foil resistors, they were detailed but rather soft sounding.
fatmarley said:
How can this possibly be? I've read over the past week on another thread here that people who played with audio circuits were naturally predisposed to always choose the most expensive parts as being the best sounding. It's apparently something in human nature.
So how can these bulk foil resistors not be by far the best?
Of course, that's ignoring the fact that all resistors must sound alike.
CG said:
Let me guess: different types of resistors in the feedback voltage divider?
Or may be CMRR was not absolutely ideal?
I faced such a problem working on a thick film amplifier, so decided to use both resistors for the divider outside of the IC.
RN60D
Hey everybody,
I have been following this thread with much interest. My personal experience with resistor 'sound' is limited, but I do have an example to throw into the pot...
I was astonished when I discovered how different caps sounded in my Hafler equipment when I tried to refurbish it (my DH110 and XL280 - I'm a HaflerFreak - get it 🙂 )
I decided to change the 2 2210 Ohm resistors and 1 3320 Ohm resistor in my XL280's feedback circuit to Dale RN60D.
There was a difference from the original resistors, I heard it.
It was neither better or worse, just 'different'.
Maybe a bit more neutral in my opinion.
My Hafler equipment, since tweaked with the highest quality caps etc. has NEVER sounded as good as its original form, 18 years ago.
Oh well, everything these days sucks compared to X years ago 🙁
As a side note, I have lived with the same system for almost 20 years, I know its sound very well...
I think resistors can sound different.
Hey everybody,
I have been following this thread with much interest. My personal experience with resistor 'sound' is limited, but I do have an example to throw into the pot...
I was astonished when I discovered how different caps sounded in my Hafler equipment when I tried to refurbish it (my DH110 and XL280 - I'm a HaflerFreak - get it 🙂 )
I decided to change the 2 2210 Ohm resistors and 1 3320 Ohm resistor in my XL280's feedback circuit to Dale RN60D.
There was a difference from the original resistors, I heard it.
It was neither better or worse, just 'different'.
Maybe a bit more neutral in my opinion.
My Hafler equipment, since tweaked with the highest quality caps etc. has NEVER sounded as good as its original form, 18 years ago.
Oh well, everything these days sucks compared to X years ago 🙁
As a side note, I have lived with the same system for almost 20 years, I know its sound very well...
I think resistors can sound different.
I prefer the nude Vishay TX2352 from Texas Components over any
other resistor when cost is no object. I also the bulk metal film potentiometers.
I find that they give a very neutral sonic footprint with a dry and firm bass which I like.
BTW,
I use the above for ALL resistors in a line amp- not just the "signal path" as most resistors, IMO, are in the signal path.
Sigurd
other resistor when cost is no object. I also the bulk metal film potentiometers.
I find that they give a very neutral sonic footprint with a dry and firm bass which I like.
BTW,
I use the above for ALL resistors in a line amp- not just the "signal path" as most resistors, IMO, are in the signal path.
Sigurd
rtate said:
@Nordic
True, but regardless of that fact I can still hear a difference when I tweak things in this system.
I know its' sound so well - between different acoustic environments and many different recordings.
I will agree that human hearing is funky, my system sometimes seems to sound different depending on the time of day and/or my mood at the time, but never the less! I swear on my honor that I hear these differences!! 😉
Seriously, when I change caps it is practically ridiculous how obvious the differences are to the sound in the Hafler circuits. How farfetched is it that I hear RN60D's in my feedback circuit?
Maybe I have been blessed with eeeexcellent hearing (He says with a crafty smile).
I love my old Hafler stuff, it just ain't got the 'boom and tizz' it once had, but it's fun to chase the dragon with cool caps and resistors...
I am pretty happy with my 110 lately, I changed out a bunch of caps (chasing the dragon) and settled on:
UCC LXV series 'big can' before the regulator
Original IC caps on the adjuster pin - couldn't beat 'em.
Elna TONEREX for the rails.
Original caps (Nichicon BP) on the bypass circuit.
Didn't dare change anything else in the 110, so no resistor report there...
The quest is for music that sounds musical!
True, but regardless of that fact I can still hear a difference when I tweak things in this system.
I know its' sound so well - between different acoustic environments and many different recordings.
I will agree that human hearing is funky, my system sometimes seems to sound different depending on the time of day and/or my mood at the time, but never the less! I swear on my honor that I hear these differences!! 😉
Seriously, when I change caps it is practically ridiculous how obvious the differences are to the sound in the Hafler circuits. How farfetched is it that I hear RN60D's in my feedback circuit?
Maybe I have been blessed with eeeexcellent hearing (He says with a crafty smile).
I love my old Hafler stuff, it just ain't got the 'boom and tizz' it once had, but it's fun to chase the dragon with cool caps and resistors...
I am pretty happy with my 110 lately, I changed out a bunch of caps (chasing the dragon) and settled on:
UCC LXV series 'big can' before the regulator
Original IC caps on the adjuster pin - couldn't beat 'em.
Elna TONEREX for the rails.
Original caps (Nichicon BP) on the bypass circuit.
Didn't dare change anything else in the 110, so no resistor report there...
The quest is for music that sounds musical!
A person I know recently changed an input series resistor from a standard low-cost metal film type into a red PRP resistor a la Ayre, and said to me that the sound "opened up considerably".
I do not say that everyone can hear such differences, nor does everyone has a hifi system like he does, but I would suggest to anyone to make some comparisons themself.
Sigurd
I do not say that everyone can hear such differences, nor does everyone has a hifi system like he does, but I would suggest to anyone to make some comparisons themself.
Sigurd
Bonsai said:
Maybe you can, but the volume expansion of the water caused by global warming would swamp the effect. But I though this example is completely off topic anyway.
On the subject of resistor measurements, some manufacterers measure differences in “linearity” between different package sizes of the same metal film resister type (and off course different levels of current noise) and put this in their datasheets (see the Vishay Draloric example below). I would concur that you can also measure differences between different brands / models / types IF you have the know-how and the appropriate fixture.
This leads me on to my question: Is anyone aware of any sound differences for different sizes of same resistors? I know that Audionote in the UK propagate the use higher Wattage rated resistors of the same type in “critical positions” but this could obviously be a marketing ploy to sell more expensive components.
Attachments
MRupp said:
Thermal resistance between the layer and the air, thermal capacitance due to different volumes and areas of surfaces.
the differences can play themselves out in the transient tempco considerations. If the given resistor is identical, but higher wattage, then the change in substrate volume may keep them more linear under a given identical load.
Some say that such thing makes no nevermind, as the results, with regards to differences between the two are so incredibly minor-but they really then have to consider exactly how the ear really works. And how the ear works is entirely different than any measurement system that is used in audio-so the numbers found in measurement have very little bearing on how the ear hears a given item or component.
Some say that such thing makes no nevermind, as the results, with regards to differences between the two are so incredibly minor-but they really then have to consider exactly how the ear really works. And how the ear works is entirely different than any measurement system that is used in audio-so the numbers found in measurement have very little bearing on how the ear hears a given item or component.
size matters!
I have trouble believing the thermal stuff in most cases (that's very easy to measure), but the effects of current density strike me as far more likely contributors- bigger resistors = lower current density.
I have trouble believing the thermal stuff in most cases (that's very easy to measure), but the effects of current density strike me as far more likely contributors- bigger resistors = lower current density.
Maybe Audionote is thinking in theory about what I believe in resistor manufacturing circles is called contact noise or as Mrupp said current noise.
Contact noise is dependent on both average DC current and resistor material/size. Since this noise is proportional to resistor size, the use of larger resistors will improve the performance over smaller resistors. Studies have shown a factor of 3 difference between a 1/2W and a 2W carbon comp resistor operating at the same conditions, dont know about other types.
The predominant noise in carbon comp, carbon film, metal oxide, and metal film is composed of contact noise, which can be very large at low frequencies because it has a 1/f frequency characteristic. Wirewound resistors do not have this noise, only resistors made of carbon particles or films. This noise is directly proportional to both the current flowing in the resistance and a constant that depends upon the material the resistor is made of.
If no current (AC or DC) flows in the resistor, the noise is equal to the thermal noise. The contact noise increases as the current is increased. This means that for low noise operation, the DC and AC currents should be kept low.
The material and geometry of the resistor can greatly affect the contact noise. Therefore, if you double the power rating of the resistor, which increases the size and area, you will reduce the contact noise generated by the resistor.
Contact noise is dependent on both average DC current and resistor material/size. Since this noise is proportional to resistor size, the use of larger resistors will improve the performance over smaller resistors. Studies have shown a factor of 3 difference between a 1/2W and a 2W carbon comp resistor operating at the same conditions, dont know about other types.
The predominant noise in carbon comp, carbon film, metal oxide, and metal film is composed of contact noise, which can be very large at low frequencies because it has a 1/f frequency characteristic. Wirewound resistors do not have this noise, only resistors made of carbon particles or films. This noise is directly proportional to both the current flowing in the resistance and a constant that depends upon the material the resistor is made of.
If no current (AC or DC) flows in the resistor, the noise is equal to the thermal noise. The contact noise increases as the current is increased. This means that for low noise operation, the DC and AC currents should be kept low.
The material and geometry of the resistor can greatly affect the contact noise. Therefore, if you double the power rating of the resistor, which increases the size and area, you will reduce the contact noise generated by the resistor.
Question for John C
Hello John,
My hca-3500 is at Rick Cullens shop in Paso Robles for some mods. Besides changing the r-44 feedback resistors, checking the polarity, and floating the grounds, can you give some recommendations to help Rick get the most out of the amp for my money? I don't want to get too carried away, my goal is to clean up the highs. The bottom end on the amp sounds pretty fantastic to me.
Do you think I would be better off using the holco resistors over the dale vishay's? Or is there a better choice? Do you have a drawing of the circuit board?
Thanks, I am a fan of your Parasound work, Lots of bang for the buck.
Matt
Hello John,
My hca-3500 is at Rick Cullens shop in Paso Robles for some mods. Besides changing the r-44 feedback resistors, checking the polarity, and floating the grounds, can you give some recommendations to help Rick get the most out of the amp for my money? I don't want to get too carried away, my goal is to clean up the highs. The bottom end on the amp sounds pretty fantastic to me.
Do you think I would be better off using the holco resistors over the dale vishay's? Or is there a better choice? Do you have a drawing of the circuit board?
Thanks, I am a fan of your Parasound work, Lots of bang for the buck.
Matt
From 1942? and it was the resistors your hearing? Are you serious? Do you know how inferior the tape, the recording heads, etc etc etc they used.(not to mention storage on tape thats probably sheding oxide like dansdruff) You really think you can hear the resistors?? First I will say I believe some components (a film cap over a electrolitic) do make a difference to the sound quality, some dont.($7000 speaker wire over heavey gauge whatever). My problem is: How can you make amplifier circuit (wire with gain) decisions on "it sounded better". Recording engineers add distortion (harmonic/phase) to make it "sound better" all the time (tubes). So how can I believe someone who says one resistor "sounds better" than another. Different maybe, but unless your switching quickly between the 2 in a controlled enviroment the brain has to much input. As said earlier a 20% change in humidity probably has more affect on the sound, or moving your head a couple of inches (especially stereo). Most of this thread talks about noise differences but what people hear are Freq response difs? Hugh? Thermal effects: is this just the resistance changing dynamicaly with temp? I can see this being a factor in resistors that run warm and have a high ac/dc current ratio in critical value resistors but how many of these are in a good design? And wouldnt a heat sink help?
Re: size matters!
regards
so you believe the charts are made with equal resistor temperature?SY said:
regards
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