classicalfan this is a thread you started where you have made multiple claims that you haven't proved. No one else is responsible for the claims you have made. This is your thread. It is not the responsibility of others to prove you wrong. If you can't substantiate the premise of your thread the honourable thing is to concede that you can't.
You say the onus is on others to prove your claims are incorrect. This is what I understand about the "burden of proof fallacy":
The burden of proof fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone tries to evade their burden of proof, by denying it, pretending to have fulfilled it, or shifting it to someone else.
The burden of proof fallacy can involve several patterns of behaviors, all of which revolve around evading one’s burden of proof. The main such patterns of behavior are the following:
The burden of proof fallacy can involve several patterns of behaviors, all of which revolve around evading one’s burden of proof. The main such patterns of behavior are the following:
- Denying the need to prove a claim.
- Pretending that to have already proven the claim, without actually having done so.
- Shifting the burden of proof to others, by stating that they should disprove the original claim.
- Shifting the burden of proof to others, by stating that they should prove their own stance, while ignoring the burden of proof for the original claim.
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You still don't seem to understand. I am not the one making the original claim that is at the central core of this entire discussion.
The claim is being made by others that the brand and/or type of capacitor used in the crossover has a direct and discernable affect on sound quality from the speaker.
That IS THE CORE CLAIM in this discussion. I am simply saying prove it. And no one has done that so far.
I don't have to prove the negative in order to question someone else's claim. The onus is on the original claim maker to prove their assertion. Not on someone who raises questions about its validly. That is not the way it works.
The claim is being made by others that the brand and/or type of capacitor used in the crossover has a direct and discernable affect on sound quality from the speaker.
That IS THE CORE CLAIM in this discussion. I am simply saying prove it. And no one has done that so far.
I don't have to prove the negative in order to question someone else's claim. The onus is on the original claim maker to prove their assertion. Not on someone who raises questions about its validly. That is not the way it works.
Burning the knowledgeable ones at the pyre was the weapon of choice of the fanatics and intolerants.I quit participating because I kept having impure thoughts of feeding Sonce and classicalfan to the gators!
Using gators instead amounts to the same thing.
You seem to have forgotten that you started the thread with claims that others have argued against.
This claim, for example:
"No one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever been able to explain why the dielectric insulator in capacitors of equal value can have an effect on the sound. It doesn’t matter whether that material is ceramic, film, mica, or any other insulating material. The little electrons in the plates on both sides of it don’t care. They behave exactly the same. There sometimes is a very small difference in the ESR, but most agree that it is too small to be heard except perhaps in electrolyics"
Your knowledge is deficient. There exist many scientific papers demonstrating the mechanisms and measurements of nonlinearities at audio frequencies for capacitors made of different materials and construction techniques, published in the world's peak peer reviewed scientific journals as have been referenced in this thread.
I have invited you to provide evidence of a scientific basis for your claims of inaudibility of capacitor nonlinearities, but you have failed to do so. If I have missed a post where you have done so, please link back to it.
One more time. It is up to the people claiming an audible effect of the capacitors to prove it. And they haven't.
Measuring nonlinearities does prove that they are audible. Only that they exist in the capacitors. And the difference between the two is enormous.
If these nonlinearities do affect the sound why hasn't anyone yet been able to determine it? You haven't answered that, so until you do this discussion is pointless.
I need to post this again with a correction and can't go back to edit it anymore.
Here it is again with the second line corrected by the addition of the word NOT:
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One more time. It is up to the people claiming an audible effect of the capacitors to prove it. And they haven't.
Measuring nonlinearities does NOT prove that they are audible. Only that they exist in the capacitors. And the difference between the two is enormous.
If these nonlinearities do affect the sound why hasn't anyone yet been able to determine it? You haven't answered that, so until you do this discussion is pointless.
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You are right it is a pointless discussion, at least as far as being a discussion about science or logic, starting from about post 1. Saying you are right and anyone who expresses a different viewpoint from your's is wrong is not even a discussion. Saying so many times over does not strengthen you position. I can only assume your need to win is overriding your ability to see the simple flaw in your logic and the large gaps in your knowledge.
Classicalfan is not saying he's right, he's saying it's not proved that caps sound different!!
You and others do, that means you have to back it up by doing it with ABX. I've done it crudely at home with one speaker and help from a friend. It turned out as a coin toss or slightly above. And as I mentioned before, it was with/without a large electrolytic cap in an active system, worst case scenario according to cap "religion".
With that, I'm out...
You and others do, that means you have to back it up by doing it with ABX. I've done it crudely at home with one speaker and help from a friend. It turned out as a coin toss or slightly above. And as I mentioned before, it was with/without a large electrolytic cap in an active system, worst case scenario according to cap "religion".
With that, I'm out...
The test was just a suggestion for anyone who might be interested, not everything is about you and Sonce, I've moved on, I thought I'd made it clear, in my view you've won the "debate", congratulations.
It does often (not aways thankfully) seem those who consider themselves more knowledgeable are the ones that are the most determined to dismiss, ridicule, attempt to undermine those who say they hear a difference, without, it seems, being willing to listen, discuss, accept the possibility that they are hearing a difference that has it's basis in science, the way audio circuits behave and not always some cognative bias.
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What I am asking for is not undefined nor is it unusual. In fact, it is very well defined as straight forward controlled blind testing that is used in many fields such medical research.
I have also referenced two well done videos on this subject that show examples of how the testing should be done.
You have consistently tried to put the onus on me instead of accepting it yourself which is where it really belongs. See the post just above by peterbrorsson that makes this point quite well.
That would depend how well the test was actually done. The statement... "done the test like Amir suggested"... is open to a very broad range of possibilities.
(That's my last answer for tonight. Very late here.)
Above was addressed to @classicalfan, but here is my answer:
No, You (and others) started with such claims! Here is my previous post #327 (to @airvoid), which you were afraid to comment and choose to ignore:
So, my dear friends @mountainman bob, @Jazz Man, @airvoid, @johnmath (and others), because you were the first ones to make such claims, the burden of proof is on you!
Yes, but there is no single scientific paper about the audibility of capacitor nonlinearities!
You demand proving a negative.
Please read my previous post #336:(I added the words in red color to my original post above).
So, @johnmath, please do prove a positive: "There is subjective sound difference between cheap and expensive capacitors"!
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Well, Classicalfan hasn't "proved" or referenced proof that caps don't sound different either! But that is not what my post is about.
Classicalfan is saying he is right about the science and that it is not for him to prove his proposition, which is clearly nonsense. His logic is faulty and the burden of proof is for the claimant to back up the claim made, namely that capacitor sound is inaudible. That is his claim, nobody else's. One presumes he has a basis for making that claim but he has failed to disclose what the basis is despite being asked several times.
It would help if he stopped changing the goal posts. First of all he claimed there was no known mechanism that could cause any nonlinearity in capacitors. I posted links to peer reviewed science detailing the mechanisms of nonlinearity in capacitors. Then he claimed that nonlinearities would not affect the signal. I've posted links to peer reviewed science showing how audio frequency intermodulation products are created in nonlinearities in capacitors. Now he claims that the intermodulation products caused by the nonlinearities in capacitors are inaudible. Two of these three claims have been shown to be fallacious. That's not auguring well for his line of reasoning so far.
Since we now all agree that capacitors do have nonlinearities, what is the threshold of audibility of signal changes caused by nonlinearities in capacitors? By definition the threshold of audibility of nonlinearities in capacitors cannot be zero and it cannot be infinite, so what is it? Until this is defined, it simply is not possible to claim that nonlinearities in crossover capacitors are going to fall below the threshold of audibility.
To get to this conclusion does not need any blind testing, just logic. The claim that "capacitor sound is inaudible" is a claim that cannot be proved or substantiated by scientific research, it can only be disproved. It can be inferred if the threshold of audibility for intermodulation products generated in capacitors was known to be higher than the actual levels of capacitor induced intermodulation distortion in actual crossovers, but it seems there is a dearth of research on this topic. Note this fact does not prove the counter claim that capacitors do have sound, but that has not been and is not my proposition in this thread.
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That's an perplexing request since the price of capacitors, cheap, expensive or otherwise, is totally irrelevant to anything I have posted in this thread!
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