N-Channel
on post 37 you said about Xantrex Prosine inverter , i like to know few things , how big those L-C filters are, what type of core and topology it use, what type of semiconductor, its very interesting to learn that the Xantrex Prosine has few control electronics for a true sine wave inverter, thank you
on post 37 you said about Xantrex Prosine inverter , i like to know few things , how big those L-C filters are, what type of core and topology it use, what type of semiconductor, its very interesting to learn that the Xantrex Prosine has few control electronics for a true sine wave inverter, thank you
Hi areza,
I cannot say- I literally had it open for only a minute. I wasn't kidding- I really did take this this thing apart when no one was looking, seriously! 😀 This was someone else's project, and I wanted to leave no footprints behind....
I had to hurry. I did see a couple of big blue toroids (like 3.00" o.d.) and some big caps, but no values. No visual part #'s for the BIG output MOSFETs, though I suspect they might have even been IGBTs.
Cheers,
Steve
I cannot say- I literally had it open for only a minute. I wasn't kidding- I really did take this this thing apart when no one was looking, seriously! 😀 This was someone else's project, and I wanted to leave no footprints behind....
I had to hurry. I did see a couple of big blue toroids (like 3.00" o.d.) and some big caps, but no values. No visual part #'s for the BIG output MOSFETs, though I suspect they might have even been IGBTs.Cheers,
Steve
N-Channel said:
Give a shout on some of the off-grid forums and stuff.
www.fieldlines.com is one I know of.
Somebody just might have a schematic.
If all else fails,you could try contacting Xantrex,or one of the other manufacturers...I'm not 100% sure they'd let go of the schematics though. 🙄
while i was looking for a schematics for Xantrex ProSine i found this link for a true sine wave inverter built on class d , i have a question to all , can i use one driver transformer on the place of these ir21834 ,
http://www.s4wsbox.com/?q=node/31
http://www.s4wsbox.com/?q=node/31
This 2.5KW TL494 inverter that was posted..........
Is it a square wave output? I'm not sure sine can be made with TL494.
Is it a square wave output? I'm not sure sine can be made with TL494.
E-
No. It is a modified sinewave, meaning that it is essentially a square wave with some fixed amount of dead-time inserted to roughly, and I mean roughly, approximate a sinewave. Still contains lots of high-order harmonics which some PFC power supplies and other sensitive electronics really don't like.
Steve
No. It is a modified sinewave, meaning that it is essentially a square wave with some fixed amount of dead-time inserted to roughly, and I mean roughly, approximate a sinewave. Still contains lots of high-order harmonics which some PFC power supplies and other sensitive electronics really don't like.
Steve
Hi Steve,
is it possible to set the duty cycle for the H-bridge low as 10% ? or what duty cycle you have at you end, thanks
is it possible to set the duty cycle for the H-bridge low as 10% ? or what duty cycle you have at you end, thanks
10% not too good. Tha narrow duty cycle could cause high voltage spikes if load is suddenly removed.
I owuld say about 70-75% duty dydle should be good.
Steve
I owuld say about 70-75% duty dydle should be good.
Steve
Dear N-Channel,
Thank you very much for the beautiful idea and pictures and schematics. I did not have this idea that small cores can be utilized for making kw ratings inverter, rater I used bigger sized core. Thank you again for making my task easier.
You have made this modified sine wave with discreet ics and it is appreciatable. But for sine wave inverter, it is very difficult to make it with discreet ics. If you want to make a pure sine wave inverter, it will be easier to make with micro controller. I want to share some of my experiences with you.
Thank you very much for the beautiful idea and pictures and schematics. I did not have this idea that small cores can be utilized for making kw ratings inverter, rater I used bigger sized core. Thank you again for making my task easier.
You have made this modified sine wave with discreet ics and it is appreciatable. But for sine wave inverter, it is very difficult to make it with discreet ics. If you want to make a pure sine wave inverter, it will be easier to make with micro controller. I want to share some of my experiences with you.
Sine wave Inverter with Pic Microcontroller.
Dear N - Channel ,thanks again. I want to share some of my experiences with you regarding making inverter with Micro controller
Modified Sine Wave Inverter with Pic 12F675.
It is very easy to make modified Sine Wave Inverter with Microcontroller and I used tiny 8 Pin Pic 12F675 which is as big as a 555 timer. Out of 8 Pin, it is having 6 input /output pin. It is having 4 MHz internal oscillator which provides 1 MHz machine cycle, that is 1 machine cycle in 1 microsecond(4 MHz/4). It is having internal 10 Bit AdC with multichannel which can be used for line sense/ feed back. It is having 1 internal Analogue Comparator, with programmable internal voltage reference which can be used for comparing any Analogue Signal. It costs only U.S. $ 0.75. It a risc (reduced instruction set controller) type micro controller having only 35 instructions.
I used 2 pins for giving signal to the inputs of 2 ir2181/L6385 mosfet drivers. Signal is given on 1 pin for 8 mili second, 2 mili second off, again signal to other pin for 8 mili second and 2 mili second off. continue this and you will get output of a modified sine wave(50 HZ) with 20% dead time and this modified sine wave is good for all household resistive and inductive load. I used internal ADC to monitor output to stabilize it through feedback. Comparator can also be used as the output of it can be toggled with program.
If you consider discreet ic it is very easy with Pic micro. I do program in Assembly Language. Next time Pure Sine wave with Pic Micro.
Dear N - Channel ,thanks again. I want to share some of my experiences with you regarding making inverter with Micro controller
Modified Sine Wave Inverter with Pic 12F675.
It is very easy to make modified Sine Wave Inverter with Microcontroller and I used tiny 8 Pin Pic 12F675 which is as big as a 555 timer. Out of 8 Pin, it is having 6 input /output pin. It is having 4 MHz internal oscillator which provides 1 MHz machine cycle, that is 1 machine cycle in 1 microsecond(4 MHz/4). It is having internal 10 Bit AdC with multichannel which can be used for line sense/ feed back. It is having 1 internal Analogue Comparator, with programmable internal voltage reference which can be used for comparing any Analogue Signal. It costs only U.S. $ 0.75. It a risc (reduced instruction set controller) type micro controller having only 35 instructions.
I used 2 pins for giving signal to the inputs of 2 ir2181/L6385 mosfet drivers. Signal is given on 1 pin for 8 mili second, 2 mili second off, again signal to other pin for 8 mili second and 2 mili second off. continue this and you will get output of a modified sine wave(50 HZ) with 20% dead time and this modified sine wave is good for all household resistive and inductive load. I used internal ADC to monitor output to stabilize it through feedback. Comparator can also be used as the output of it can be toggled with program.
If you consider discreet ic it is very easy with Pic micro. I do program in Assembly Language. Next time Pure Sine wave with Pic Micro.
Sine wave inverter with Pic Microcontroller
Making sine wave inverter is very difficult with discreet ics. It is easier with Microcontroller if some one is aware regarding Programming and the modalities of sine wave and the use of parts in high frequency application. Before indulging in making sine wave inverter, one should have clear idea regarding the followings:
Low ESR (equivalent series resistance) Capacitors, Inductance and Inductor(not PHD type knowledge, just workable knowledge), Ferrite Core Transformer characteristics (following internet design only may not be useful all the time), thorough knowledge regarding Resistor,MOV,Snubber Circuit, High frequency high speed diode, transzorb diode, surge suppression modalities, decoupling capacitors and last but not the least, low order LC filter, as this will convert your output wave into a sine wave.
No body should mind - this is just a reminder and not an effort to teach any body as I know that most of those who attend this Forum are more knowledgeable than me.
For making sine wave inverter, I used Pic 18F1320 which is a real gem. It is having total 18 Pins. Out of which, 14 are input/output. It is having 8 MHZ internal oscillator which can be programmed as low as 31kHz. Outside crystal oscillator of 10 MHz can be used and internal PLL will make this frequency 4 times faster - that is 40 MHz. So, it is having 10 MHz instruction cycle- that is, each pulse/instruction cycle takes only 100 Nano Second to perform.
It is having 4k word (16 bit long) flash program memory,256 byte RAM and 256 Byte EEPROM data memory. It is having 10 bit multi channel Internal ADC, 2 Comparators, Serial Communication modalities, single instruction cycle multiplication capability and a very interesting Module for making sine wave - ECCP.
This Hardware Enhanced Capture Compare and Pulse Width Modulation System is provided by Microchip Company for making Push-Pull, Half Bridge and Full Bridge circuits.
This ECCP module is assigned 4 Pins of the micro controller for making Full Bridge Circuit by giving signal to the 4 pins of 2 Mosfet/Igbt Drivers to control 4 mosfet/igbt(2 high side-2 low side).
Now you have to make a sine wave table to be stored in flash program memory. PIc 18F1320 will execute the sine table, comparators will be used for feedback, ADC for error correction. I have used 50KHz frequency. According to the Sine Wave Table, the Controller brought out the wave and with the help of Low Order LC Filter, the output wave is converted to sine wave as with the help of the Low Order LC filter, the Modulating 50KHz signals are De-Modulated to 50 HZ Sine Wave (removing multi order harmonics).
It is very easy. Ha Ha!! But you have to know to program the PIC and also have to know to make Sine Table, error Table and Feed back Modalities. If you know this, you can make sine wave inverter of any capacity as N- Channel has shown to make Big One with Small cores.
N- Channel, you are as good as N-Channel Mosfets.
Thank you N -Channel.
In the next posting, I will let you know the modalities of Programming, Creating Sign Table, Use of LC filter etc. so that you can be encouraged to move to Microcontroller. My favorite is
PIC Microcontroller. With it you can make any thing possible. I love you PIC- very much.
Making sine wave inverter is very difficult with discreet ics. It is easier with Microcontroller if some one is aware regarding Programming and the modalities of sine wave and the use of parts in high frequency application. Before indulging in making sine wave inverter, one should have clear idea regarding the followings:
Low ESR (equivalent series resistance) Capacitors, Inductance and Inductor(not PHD type knowledge, just workable knowledge), Ferrite Core Transformer characteristics (following internet design only may not be useful all the time), thorough knowledge regarding Resistor,MOV,Snubber Circuit, High frequency high speed diode, transzorb diode, surge suppression modalities, decoupling capacitors and last but not the least, low order LC filter, as this will convert your output wave into a sine wave.
No body should mind - this is just a reminder and not an effort to teach any body as I know that most of those who attend this Forum are more knowledgeable than me.
For making sine wave inverter, I used Pic 18F1320 which is a real gem. It is having total 18 Pins. Out of which, 14 are input/output. It is having 8 MHZ internal oscillator which can be programmed as low as 31kHz. Outside crystal oscillator of 10 MHz can be used and internal PLL will make this frequency 4 times faster - that is 40 MHz. So, it is having 10 MHz instruction cycle- that is, each pulse/instruction cycle takes only 100 Nano Second to perform.
It is having 4k word (16 bit long) flash program memory,256 byte RAM and 256 Byte EEPROM data memory. It is having 10 bit multi channel Internal ADC, 2 Comparators, Serial Communication modalities, single instruction cycle multiplication capability and a very interesting Module for making sine wave - ECCP.
This Hardware Enhanced Capture Compare and Pulse Width Modulation System is provided by Microchip Company for making Push-Pull, Half Bridge and Full Bridge circuits.
This ECCP module is assigned 4 Pins of the micro controller for making Full Bridge Circuit by giving signal to the 4 pins of 2 Mosfet/Igbt Drivers to control 4 mosfet/igbt(2 high side-2 low side).
Now you have to make a sine wave table to be stored in flash program memory. PIc 18F1320 will execute the sine table, comparators will be used for feedback, ADC for error correction. I have used 50KHz frequency. According to the Sine Wave Table, the Controller brought out the wave and with the help of Low Order LC Filter, the output wave is converted to sine wave as with the help of the Low Order LC filter, the Modulating 50KHz signals are De-Modulated to 50 HZ Sine Wave (removing multi order harmonics).
It is very easy. Ha Ha!! But you have to know to program the PIC and also have to know to make Sine Table, error Table and Feed back Modalities. If you know this, you can make sine wave inverter of any capacity as N- Channel has shown to make Big One with Small cores.
N- Channel, you are as good as N-Channel Mosfets.
Thank you N -Channel.
In the next posting, I will let you know the modalities of Programming, Creating Sign Table, Use of LC filter etc. so that you can be encouraged to move to Microcontroller. My favorite is
PIC Microcontroller. With it you can make any thing possible. I love you PIC- very much.
golam said:
Golam,
Thank You for the kind remarks. That's kinda why I chose my screen name. Nothin' like the ubitiquous N-Channel MOSFET to get the job done.
OK, nuff blowin' my own horn, on with the thread.....
The pics of the inverter I showed are of a commercial unit I came across- an AIMS 2.5kW modified sinewave inverter- I did not build this myself. I just thought grabbing a few pics of it to help explaining the whole multiple small transformers thing for multi-kW power levels was a pretty good idea.
At this time, I am trying to do a PC board for a DC-DC boost converter (+12V in +19.5V out) for my Dell Laptop. PWM Controller is SG3525, and MOSFETS are a pair of MTP75N06s. Inductor is would bi-filar (as an autoformer) for a 2-F interleaved flyback topology. I know circuit works, but I'll keep you all posted on PC board progress.
Cheers,
Steve
N-Channel,
Thank you again. I thought that idea is yours. But it does not matter. You have put forward to us the idea of utilizing small transformers for making bigger one and for that you require million thanks. It is really really a very useful idea and I am greatful to you. Actually, ideas are money, if you can utilize that idea on ground.
golam
Thank you again. I thought that idea is yours. But it does not matter. You have put forward to us the idea of utilizing small transformers for making bigger one and for that you require million thanks. It is really really a very useful idea and I am greatful to you. Actually, ideas are money, if you can utilize that idea on ground.
golam
golam,
if you used a PIC for generating sines, did you use two outputs (to drive mosfets//push-pull mode?)
if you used a PIC for generating sines, did you use two outputs (to drive mosfets//push-pull mode?)
MSINEWAVE
AOL
Golam
I read ur post in this thread having made ur modified sinewave inverter with pic. I will thankfull of u if u send me the code and schematics of ur inverter I am living in pakistan northwest reagion and everyday milatry strikes and bombings are disrupting our power supply so i badly need it
regards naseerak
AOL
Golam
I read ur post in this thread having made ur modified sinewave inverter with pic. I will thankfull of u if u send me the code and schematics of ur inverter I am living in pakistan northwest reagion and everyday milatry strikes and bombings are disrupting our power supply so i badly need it
regards naseerak
Naseerak,
If pic based linear type modified sinewave inverter fulfill your requirement, I will provide you the schematic and code in Assembly Language. SMPS based sine wave/modified sine wave type detail will not be provided to you as that is a trade secret. I am too busy with Pic based products and having very less time to spare. However, I will make some time by tomorrow or day after tomorrow to post the schematic and code. Please let me know whether linear type will fulfill your requirement or not.
Thanks.
If pic based linear type modified sinewave inverter fulfill your requirement, I will provide you the schematic and code in Assembly Language. SMPS based sine wave/modified sine wave type detail will not be provided to you as that is a trade secret. I am too busy with Pic based products and having very less time to spare. However, I will make some time by tomorrow or day after tomorrow to post the schematic and code. Please let me know whether linear type will fulfill your requirement or not.
Thanks.
RX5,
For pure sine wave inverter, you require 2 stage configuration- first boost section, from 12/24v dc to 350v dc and for that you require 2 pins of Pic micro controller to drive mosfets in push- pull topology. For converting 350v dc to 220/230v sine AC, you require a full bridge circuit and for that you require 4 pins if you use Unipolar SPWM routine or 2/4 pins if you use Bipolar SPWM routine.
Thanks.
For pure sine wave inverter, you require 2 stage configuration- first boost section, from 12/24v dc to 350v dc and for that you require 2 pins of Pic micro controller to drive mosfets in push- pull topology. For converting 350v dc to 220/230v sine AC, you require a full bridge circuit and for that you require 4 pins if you use Unipolar SPWM routine or 2/4 pins if you use Bipolar SPWM routine.
Thanks.
Inverter
AOL
Golam
Thanks for your offer I will difinitely go for the linear one as switch mode will be too difficult to made because of parts and expertise however i have a pic burner and knowleledge of programming.
Kindly send me the linear one as i have to travel 70 km to peshawar to get to the internet.
my mail add. is katozai@yahoo.com
i will recieve a mail notification on my mobile if you send it.
regards
AOL
Golam
Thanks for your offer I will difinitely go for the linear one as switch mode will be too difficult to made because of parts and expertise however i have a pic burner and knowleledge of programming.
Kindly send me the linear one as i have to travel 70 km to peshawar to get to the internet.
my mail add. is katozai@yahoo.com
i will recieve a mail notification on my mobile if you send it.
regards
naseerak , you are westing your time after a pic controlled linear modified sinewave/squarewave inverter, a sg3525/4 or tl494 even a 555 timer can do this short of job very well and there is thousand of schematics with description out there in internet, in face this technology is more then 20 years old ,
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