I back FL Studio. They are one of the original DAWs that was street level and have being around for a long time with very little of the corporate greed being ever displayed by the company
Their current setup is great. A couple of levels of full version. A trail implementation that really never expires and lets you do almost everything. Also, a cheap mobile version for all platforms that also integrates as a plugin for the desktop version
I have used the trial version for backing beats since 2011 and found it great. I recently bought the Akai FIRE, and it comes with a licence key which are lifetime and would recommend this controller to you. It makes FL Studio even more accessible and fun
In Sept 1967 gorgeous Michelle Phillips did a subtle protest of being asked to lip-sync, versus actually sing, on the Ed Sullivan show. At 10 going on 11 at the time, I can guarantee I didnt get it. Just to say lip-syncing and what people think about it has been going on for a long time in the US.
But, we're talking about compression and I can understand Randy's point, without even listening to the video. His words around the video post are enough that the registers in my mind say "got it". My own experience just might sway me in that clicking.
But, we're talking about compression and I can understand Randy's point, without even listening to the video. His words around the video post are enough that the registers in my mind say "got it". My own experience just might sway me in that clicking.
Back in the late 90's a coworker brought a disk into work and asked me to help him figure it out. It was a Fruity Loops disk that his son had bought. We played with it, made it work and his son went on to make some noise (OK, maybe music) with it. I kept a copy of the disk, but never really did much with it. Kellogg's, the cereal company threatened to sue, or block all sales of Fruity Loops in the US, so it was renamed to FL Studio.
During the Gibson kills Cakewalk Sonar fiasco, Amazon ran a lightning sale on the Fruity Edition of FL Studio for $39, so I bought it. I had also discovered an old Ableton Live 6 disk that came with a MIDI keyboard that I had purchased, so I upgraded that to Live 9 and put both on my PC.
As with Cakewalk Sonar, I have never used more than a small percentage of the features of either DAW, since I generally use them as fancy MIDI capable tape recorders. I find that attempting to create new and unique music, or musical phrases by splatting notes on a piano roll style screen doesn't result in much useful music. Others find that they can make good stuff that way. There are several random or "AI" powered "music engines" that will do the same thing. The user can lock them into a scale and let it rip capturing the entire output, into the PC, then mining it for something useful. Not my idea of fun.
I find that I have more fun with two Korg SQ-64 hardware sequencers, an Arturia Keystep sequencer, and a Conductive Labs NDLR intelligent randomizer controlling a bunch of hardware synthesizers. Here the DAW is used only to record the MIDI generated by this setup, which can then be used to play any number of different hardware or software synthesizers. Here you have a few dozen knobs and buttons to play with each resulting in a real time sound, note, or pattern change that can be easily undone if you don't like the result.
Again, everyone has a different idea of how to make music. That will change as the user's skill level and musical tastes evolve. Doing some careful thinking and planning upfront as to how the system will be used, and how it may be expanded or changed in the future to meet new needs or desires can save money by avoiding purchases that don't work out, or never get used.
The concept of compression has been mentioned. Back in the 90's the PAS and others were limited to 16 bits of resolution which translates to 96 dB of dynamic range in a "perfect system." Reality usually falls somewhere in the 80's. This can be exceeded with a human voice, guitar, bass or drums, so a compressor in front of the A/D conversion is used to reduce the dynamic range. Exactly how and when this compression is invoked is a subject that fills entire books. Most modern sound cards, and many PC motherboards can do 24 bits of resolution with up to 96 or even a 192 KHz sampling rate. This does NOT translate to a theoretical 144 dB of dynamic range due to noise and other impairments, especially on a PC motherboard which is by definition, noisy. You may see numbers in the 100 to 110 dB range on an external USB or Firewire device. With this much range and careful adjustment voice and instruments can often be recorded directly to hard disk without compression, them tweaked (compressed) later if needed. There are some high end 32 bit recording devices available. These do not buy you 192 dB of dynamic range, but they do allow you to be a bit more sloppy with level setting.
Behringer stuff? I have four Behringer synths in my rack, the Deepmind 12, the Model D, the Neutron, and the K-2. All work well and appear to be well built. I got a cheap guitar to USB interface, and a turntable to USB interface, some time ago. Both were junk. They were 16 bit 44 KHz devices. The guitar interface could not handle the range of the guitar, and the turntable interface had very audible hiss noise. I have never tried their mixers. I got a Samson Mixpad 9 back in the 1990's and it still works great for a little budget mixer. It can be seen on top of the Focusrite interface. I use it to mix several synths into two of the Focusrite's channels.
I got a Mackie SR32*4 VLZ Pro mixer for $100 at a hamfest several years ago. After the basement rebuild is done, it will feed the 4 non - preamped channels of the Focusrite.
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Let me put this one to rest: I will only use FL Studio if neither Reaper nor Ardour work for me, which would be weird. The reason is Linux - I don't even have Windows in the house (perhaps an ages-old Win-7 on one of the old laptops). It is just personal aesthetics, nothing bad to say about FL Studio.
Actually, I might try FL Studio with wine - a sort of an emulation of windows (even thou "wine" stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator". 🙂
I would be wary of Reaper. Only way I would use it would be if I could import a CD rip to a track, then changing nothing, try to mixdown the project, just the selected track, to a 16/44 wav file and see if it is a bit-perfect copy of the original rip. Last time I tried that test, Reaper failed badly. The mixdown was time-smeared and sounded more like a bad MP3. That's because Reaper was running DSP that made the track time-stretchable whether it was wanted or not. Poor quality time stretching DSP doesn't sound good, even if set for zero stretching. Not the same as no DSP at all applied to the track. Because of that DSP, mixes done in Reaper can sound very disappointing.
Folks, thanks for the ongoing recommendations - all informative, even if I cannot possibly use all of them. 🙂
I also realize that the thread became long enough that some new participants understandably did not read all of it, and are asking questions that were answered, so I'll summarize what I am trying to achieve (and my current list of equipment is in the OP).
I want to have a reasonably easy and fun time practicing guitar and bass alone or in a group of two, or - rarely - in a larger group. I also want to experiment with recording and mastering - that's just me, mostly, by myself. We plan to practice in an average living room, not loudly, and no public performances in sight. I really want to use the equipment efficiently and remove redundancy where practical (but not go crazy about it). So, my intended setup is guitars -> a pedal (Flamma FS06 for my strat, preamp+compressor for the daughter's bass) -> mixer -> 2.1 amp+bookshelf speakers+subwoofer.
Ergonomics matter a lot: I am trying to reduce the number of wires and randomly thrown around electrical boxes.
I want to practice without a DAW and only occasionally plug in a computer.
It makes sense to add a microphone, even though we did not think of singing just yet. But we might start, or invite a friend.
In a more distant future, if we do not get bored with this, we will add a cheap electric drum set - but that is at least a year away.
Regarding my choice of a sweet spot between the dirt cheap and the exclusively expensive, I try to stay close to the cheap end but keep things practically functional if not flashy. An example is my choice of the strat: it is a decent brand name: Fender Squier but the cheapest from that cohort. The thinking was that I want it to be of reasonable quality out of the box, and I can tune simple things, and live without a luster of a big name.
I think the issue of the mixer is more or less settled: A&H ZEDi-10FX seems to suit my needs nearly perfectly at a reasonable price. I do not see a point to go higher in price at this time. Behringer XENYX X1204USB would fit better because of the built-in compressors but people raised concerns about reliability both here and in the reviews on amazon, so I decided against it. Most likely, it'll take me about a month to actually get it - I suspect it'll arrive as a gift from the family for my birthday. 🙂
I have not asked about a mic - what would the forum recommend? Again, cheap but not so cheap that it is a total crap.
I also realize that the thread became long enough that some new participants understandably did not read all of it, and are asking questions that were answered, so I'll summarize what I am trying to achieve (and my current list of equipment is in the OP).
I want to have a reasonably easy and fun time practicing guitar and bass alone or in a group of two, or - rarely - in a larger group. I also want to experiment with recording and mastering - that's just me, mostly, by myself. We plan to practice in an average living room, not loudly, and no public performances in sight. I really want to use the equipment efficiently and remove redundancy where practical (but not go crazy about it). So, my intended setup is guitars -> a pedal (Flamma FS06 for my strat, preamp+compressor for the daughter's bass) -> mixer -> 2.1 amp+bookshelf speakers+subwoofer.
Ergonomics matter a lot: I am trying to reduce the number of wires and randomly thrown around electrical boxes.
I want to practice without a DAW and only occasionally plug in a computer.
It makes sense to add a microphone, even though we did not think of singing just yet. But we might start, or invite a friend.
In a more distant future, if we do not get bored with this, we will add a cheap electric drum set - but that is at least a year away.
Regarding my choice of a sweet spot between the dirt cheap and the exclusively expensive, I try to stay close to the cheap end but keep things practically functional if not flashy. An example is my choice of the strat: it is a decent brand name: Fender Squier but the cheapest from that cohort. The thinking was that I want it to be of reasonable quality out of the box, and I can tune simple things, and live without a luster of a big name.
I think the issue of the mixer is more or less settled: A&H ZEDi-10FX seems to suit my needs nearly perfectly at a reasonable price. I do not see a point to go higher in price at this time. Behringer XENYX X1204USB would fit better because of the built-in compressors but people raised concerns about reliability both here and in the reviews on amazon, so I decided against it. Most likely, it'll take me about a month to actually get it - I suspect it'll arrive as a gift from the family for my birthday. 🙂
I have not asked about a mic - what would the forum recommend? Again, cheap but not so cheap that it is a total crap.
If you use a guitar amp and like the sound a mic would be appropriate. A good old SM57 into a mic preamp with 2k or greater input Z can make an SM-57 sound pretty good. A very clean pre can make the sound great (when they are the right mic for the job). Good news is that they are cheap and often bundled with a mic stand and a mic cable.
Don't forget a metronome. They are essential if you want to get any good at playing in time. You can use the midi-based metronome in a DAW, but midi tends to be time jittery unless clocked from a good sound card. IME midi in a DAQ using a PC clock and standard latency interrupts isn't good enough to develop precise timing. With practice humans can learn to play within 5ms - 10ms of the correct time. More than 10ms - 20ms and the band will sound like they are flamming every note. It takes time to develop of course, but it will come if you keep working on it and use the darn metronome.
Don't forget a metronome. They are essential if you want to get any good at playing in time. You can use the midi-based metronome in a DAW, but midi tends to be time jittery unless clocked from a good sound card. IME midi in a DAQ using a PC clock and standard latency interrupts isn't good enough to develop precise timing. With practice humans can learn to play within 5ms - 10ms of the correct time. More than 10ms - 20ms and the band will sound like they are flamming every note. It takes time to develop of course, but it will come if you keep working on it and use the darn metronome.
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FL Studio is a complex bit of software and setup a lot differently from other DAW interfaces. I highly recommend learning it to all but in your case, since you will not be jamming to self created accompaniment music, it would be pointless
Still not clear on what will you and family be jamming along with, and what kind of whole music mix will the guitars get recorded for and add to? Will you be recording your practice and any rendition of pre-written music only, and not building a full sound around it? I dont think you have ever mentioned this
If the recording interest is only for you and an instrument at a time as you say, then even that mixer is plenty and even redundant as the pedals can plug right into your PC
This below is the simplest and very capable audio recording tool on any platform. Have you tried this one already?
https://www.audacityteam.org/
I personally found Reaper to produce a better recording than Audacity, but that may be due to my config settings. Here is one that I had forgotten about
https://lmms.io/
I also found Reaper to be a bit not suitable for me as a virtual backing band, so had briefly moved to LMMS as it was like a GarageBand copy for non Apple and had a good sequencer. I think this would be a good one for you to look at for uncomplicated but very solid recordings
Do you have any DIY aspirations at all for this setup?
Still not clear on what will you and family be jamming along with, and what kind of whole music mix will the guitars get recorded for and add to? Will you be recording your practice and any rendition of pre-written music only, and not building a full sound around it? I dont think you have ever mentioned this
If the recording interest is only for you and an instrument at a time as you say, then even that mixer is plenty and even redundant as the pedals can plug right into your PC
This below is the simplest and very capable audio recording tool on any platform. Have you tried this one already?
https://www.audacityteam.org/
I personally found Reaper to produce a better recording than Audacity, but that may be due to my config settings. Here is one that I had forgotten about
https://lmms.io/
I also found Reaper to be a bit not suitable for me as a virtual backing band, so had briefly moved to LMMS as it was like a GarageBand copy for non Apple and had a good sequencer. I think this would be a good one for you to look at for uncomplicated but very solid recordings
Do you have any DIY aspirations at all for this setup?
I had the same discussion with the music teachers at our Primary School for year 4,5 and 6. They don't use one and the concerts sound terrible. They agree but it's not in the curriculum!
For some weird reason, I found I could handle timings as if I had a clock built into my mind, but I trained my family by using the sequencer steps as a metronome. That is following the light moving from step to step and that and the hats as click. Didn't take much at all getting everyone on the same step or getting an instrument into sub steps. With audio clicks, you can't see ahead. The stepping light on a sequencer lets one see even up to 16 steps ahead and anticipate and time for it. Easier to get into the whole thing and I highly recommend training this way
Some good input already on DAWs and practicing timing. Given that, maybe I will mention something else I put off going into before to avoid making things too complex too soon. Its that when practicing try not to look at the guitar when playing. In the long run relying on hand-eye coordination is not a good idea. Real music students have to read sheet music so they can't be staring at the instrument anyway.
Learning to play by feel and using muscle memory is far better than needing to stare at the instrument. You can practice running through the movements you are going to do by looking, but then you when you actually go to play try to do it without looking. That includes moving up and down the neck to different fret positions. You have to get used to the feel of moving between positions. With practice you can do it. In the end you will be much better player for it. Moreover it will make something like learning to sing at the same time easier too.
Learning to play by feel and using muscle memory is far better than needing to stare at the instrument. You can practice running through the movements you are going to do by looking, but then you when you actually go to play try to do it without looking. That includes moving up and down the neck to different fret positions. You have to get used to the feel of moving between positions. With practice you can do it. In the end you will be much better player for it. Moreover it will make something like learning to sing at the same time easier too.
Who here has played their own recordings back through their own stereo systems? Sound better than what some place like GRP can do? So you cant play as good as Larry Carlton - so what - how does it sound?
Yeah, those guys. Some of my fave stuff on that label.
Just wondering if anyone has sat in front of the stereo system with a guitar, played and recorded and then to a listeners astonishment, the system plays it back as convincing as the original performance. I'll guess very few can do that. PS - I've never tried, so I've no idea!
Just wondering if anyone has sat in front of the stereo system with a guitar, played and recorded and then to a listeners astonishment, the system plays it back as convincing as the original performance. I'll guess very few can do that. PS - I've never tried, so I've no idea!
Once recorded a friend of my son playing a cover song on the friend's pretty nice, second-hand Taylor acoustic guitar. The friend then went away to (IIRC) Eastman School of Music for his degree. When he returned after graduation, he stopped by to tell me, "they are still trying to figure out how you got that guitar sound, back there in the recording studio at Eastman." He went on to say, "You're he the best, I want you to mix my album."
Unfortunately had to tell him its not that easy. You can't make a really good album starting with the mix. Everything has to done as well as possible starting from arrangement and orchestration, the initial tracking, and so on from there, or an album will never sound as good as you might hope.
Anyway, guitar sound we got started with a nice guitar, mic'ed at the 12the fret with a Schoeps CMC641, into an Phoenix Audio DRS-1, into a Distressor, then into a Lynx-2 card. Might have put a little reverb on it with a UA 'UAD Plate Reverb' plugin too (a dedicated hardware DSP effect). IOW, the recording chain consisted of some pro level gear I once owned. Today the mic alone would probably go for $1.7k, the preamp for $1.25k, compressor $1.55k, and the sound card way back then set me back around $1k. Don't remember what the UAD box cost. So the answer is, sure, you can do some stuff to a professional level, depending. Also should say some recording can be done at a much, much lower budget, but probably not everything can be done just the way you might want for very low cost.
Also, of course the above did not result in a so-called, 'Memorex,' can't-tell-it-from-real moment. It was a mildly effected sound, but in a good way.
Unfortunately had to tell him its not that easy. You can't make a really good album starting with the mix. Everything has to done as well as possible starting from arrangement and orchestration, the initial tracking, and so on from there, or an album will never sound as good as you might hope.
Anyway, guitar sound we got started with a nice guitar, mic'ed at the 12the fret with a Schoeps CMC641, into an Phoenix Audio DRS-1, into a Distressor, then into a Lynx-2 card. Might have put a little reverb on it with a UA 'UAD Plate Reverb' plugin too (a dedicated hardware DSP effect). IOW, the recording chain consisted of some pro level gear I once owned. Today the mic alone would probably go for $1.7k, the preamp for $1.25k, compressor $1.55k, and the sound card way back then set me back around $1k. Don't remember what the UAD box cost. So the answer is, sure, you can do some stuff to a professional level, depending. Also should say some recording can be done at a much, much lower budget, but probably not everything can be done just the way you might want for very low cost.
Also, of course the above did not result in a so-called, 'Memorex,' can't-tell-it-from-real moment. It was a mildly effected sound, but in a good way.
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Ran out of editing time, but wanted to add that some good and successful albums have been made very simply, but probably more the exception than the rule.
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These days my random guitar playing moments usually occur with one end of a guitar cable stuck into a 30 year old Korean Squier Strat and the other end stuck directly into the front of a Focusrite Clarett interface. The interface is connected to a PC and to two sets of speakers and a pair of headphones. The guitar can flow through the headphones or the speakers WITHOUT the PC being turned on at all. I use the headphones for random moments when I need to be quiet. The PC can be turned on to run any of the effects contained in several software packages, or the DAW. Of course the PC needs to be on for recording.
Note that I have not tried any of the low end Focusrites to see if this is also possible. I can if you are interested.
Another fun practice / simple jam system is the guitar plugged into a Digitech Trio Plus "looper - band creator" pedal which has a stereo headphone output as well as stereo line / amp outputs. The Trio Plus will "create" bass and drum parts to fit the style and tempo of the guitar parts you play into it. It also has several useful effects. No it won't do miracles, as my often lousy playing confuses it a bit. Sadly, my guitar playing skills peaked 40 to 50 years ago.
The simple guitar to interface, or guitar to Trio to interface can be recorded via a DAW, usually Ableton Live in 24/96 with a convincing "realistic" playback. What comes from the recording sounds exactly like what I heard when I played it.....mistakes and all. This is pretty easy to do. Note that the same pair of speakers or headphones are used in both the live and "Memorex" cases.
I made a simple high gain 4 tube guitar amp that makes about 4 watts when cranked to 11, and about 2.5 watts clean. I plug it into one of several small DIY speaker cabinets. to get a reasonably loud guitar sound in a 2000 square foot basement. I have tried to mic this amp with an SM57 and record it into the same DAW through the same Focusrite Clarett (fairly high end) interface. The results are good, but there is some perceptible loss of realism especially with the controls on the amp "set for the heart of the sun".
Recording a single instrument does not make a song. Most music will be the result of several instruments played together, or one at a time, then "mixed" to create a recorded song. This is where things get complicated. In the typical 4 person rock combo each instrument occupies at least part of the same frequency range as one or more of the other instruments. Simply matching levels and "blending" can lead to clashes and a "muddy mix." Often some EQ, compression, panning, and other techniques like autotune and vocalign are used to fix and separate the instruments in the mix. Usually these techniques are not constant throughout the entire song. This is where the DAW becomes a really useful tool.
I can relate to the "no computer" requirement as I am working on a portable "music making box" that does not need a PC. I also have nearly finished something that some would call a sin.....a portable guitar amp that runs Windows 10 and runs on batteries.
Fantastic! I hope it's running the LTSC version. I had a copy of that running on an HP laptop, which helped me sell it. I have a second copy, but probably lost the key for it somewhere in my computer files...
I have a portable music making box too - it's an acoustic guitar with a Chinese add-in preamp that happens to have reverb-echo effects and a power amp, 18650 battery. The output is connected to a Dayton DAEX25FHE-4, which I've glued to the inside back of the guitar. So now the effects emanate from the guitar body itself and blend quite nicely with the acoustic sound coming off the top - and out the sound hole.
Silly me; I noticed they had an electret mic embodied in this thing. I guess it was supposed to pick up the acoustic sound from within the guitar body and add that to the standard under-saddle piezo pickup. It has its own level control. I put a "Joe" spin on that idea, by chopping out that mic, wiring it to a TRS jack mounted on the guitar's side and connecting it to my Shure headset mic. Now when I sing, the reverb effect comes through the guitar body as well, which I can control the level of by proximity.
It's...pretty much a one trick pony; maybe can get two useful effects out of it; hall reverb and slapback echo - if I can get in sync with it. The amp outputs only straight effects, for obvious reasons. I have 3 more units coming and I'll see if I can get some "dry" mixed in from at least the headset mic input.
Despite the limitations, I've been having more damn fun playing and singing with this setup, currently in place in a Yamaha nylon that's my preamp-install-practice guitar (broken headstock repair). With a strap, I could play/sing while walking down the street with it, half amplified anyway.
No LTSC, just a generic W10 image downloaded from the MS website authorized with an old W7 key. The LTSC versions can be downloaded, but "normal" W7 or W10 keys will not work. MS wants a $7 to $10 per month subscription which I will not do. There are hacks for making the 90 day trial resume, but there seems to be more problems with them than it's worth.
The "music making box" is a DIY device that I have been working on sporadically for over two years. It has several music synthesizers of my own design, a sequencer, a guitar preamp, 19 knobs, 16 faders and a small touch screen. Most of the hardware is working, but the software still needs more work. A lot more work.
The guitar amp that runs Windows is now in its third generation. Ther first gen was too big needed wall outlet power and had small crappy speakers that self destructed the first time I plugged a bass guitar in and cranked it up full. It was an attempt at "one box does everything" including a DAW. It did have a stingy Core i7-7700T chip, so it could be used without a power outlet. you just had to lug a 1KVA UPS around to run it. It would power my "Blue" synthesizer, a DIY digital synth, and had an internal 10 WPC audio amp which got plenty loud on external speakers, but eventually got ripped apart to make Gen 2 which never worked right. Gen 3 runs a Ryzen 7 5700G chip and uses a 13 inch touch screen instead of the 19 inch unit in Gen 1. I have not built a case for it yet, but all of the pieces play well together. It uses 14 X 18650's for power.
Gen 1 seen on a vacation trip to the outer banks of NC. Note the tiny Tang Band speakers in the bottom corners. They work well in the quiet room but didn't cut it outdoors.
The "music making box" is a DIY device that I have been working on sporadically for over two years. It has several music synthesizers of my own design, a sequencer, a guitar preamp, 19 knobs, 16 faders and a small touch screen. Most of the hardware is working, but the software still needs more work. A lot more work.
The guitar amp that runs Windows is now in its third generation. Ther first gen was too big needed wall outlet power and had small crappy speakers that self destructed the first time I plugged a bass guitar in and cranked it up full. It was an attempt at "one box does everything" including a DAW. It did have a stingy Core i7-7700T chip, so it could be used without a power outlet. you just had to lug a 1KVA UPS around to run it. It would power my "Blue" synthesizer, a DIY digital synth, and had an internal 10 WPC audio amp which got plenty loud on external speakers, but eventually got ripped apart to make Gen 2 which never worked right. Gen 3 runs a Ryzen 7 5700G chip and uses a 13 inch touch screen instead of the 19 inch unit in Gen 1. I have not built a case for it yet, but all of the pieces play well together. It uses 14 X 18650's for power.
Gen 1 seen on a vacation trip to the outer banks of NC. Note the tiny Tang Band speakers in the bottom corners. They work well in the quiet room but didn't cut it outdoors.
