Hi all,
I'm interested in building a full-range back loaded horn. I have a nice large space and something sculptural would be nice. If money were no object, I'd have a pair of Pnoe but money isn't unlimited so DIY it is 🙂
Designs wise, I quite like the C-Horn, and I have looked at plans for the Hedlund and Dallas II, both of which could be made more curvy. But most of the designs seem quite old now. Are there any 2014/5 horn designs that I should be looking at?
Thanks
Foo
I'm interested in building a full-range back loaded horn. I have a nice large space and something sculptural would be nice. If money were no object, I'd have a pair of Pnoe but money isn't unlimited so DIY it is 🙂
Designs wise, I quite like the C-Horn, and I have looked at plans for the Hedlund and Dallas II, both of which could be made more curvy. But most of the designs seem quite old now. Are there any 2014/5 horn designs that I should be looking at?
Thanks
Foo
This site would be a good start.
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Mike
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Mike
Check out the 2 dozen designs on hm's site. Not exactly sculptures but maybe if you like industrial modern. I'm sure they sound nice.
Hornlautsprecher
Then there is Nelson Pass' Klein Horn - a behemoth to behold.
https://www.passdiy.com/project/speakers/the-kleinhorn-part-1
Hornlautsprecher
Then there is Nelson Pass' Klein Horn - a behemoth to behold.
https://www.passdiy.com/project/speakers/the-kleinhorn-part-1
I regard Martin King as a friend of mine, and Martin is generally the first to say that while he may adopt one definition, other people may adopt different but equally valid ones. In the case of horns, we apply different criteria. I do not define a them as being a design where Fc = F0, i.e. one that is impedance matched down to the 1/4 wave cutoff frequency, but simply as any pipe that expands toward the terminus, since they all possess an element (degree depending on specifics) of 1/2 wave resonant behaviour. Simple as that.
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Thanks for the suggestions — surprised that the designs suggested are all still several years old. I'd seen most of them already.
Maybe I should start out with a frugal horn. Anyone selling kits in the UK?
Foo
Maybe I should start out with a frugal horn. Anyone selling kits in the UK?
Foo
Louis Eastman. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planet-10-hifi/268056-cnc-kits-mark-audio-uk.html
dave
dave
Any particular reason why you want a horn designed in 2014/15 rather than one from a couple of years ago? The physics is the same now as it always has been.
Please allow me to add a couple of thoughts;
Sculpture follows form, which follows function, which follows your audio needs. I like your end desire, but let's get there in a methodical method.
First, you state you have a large room. How large?
What are you looking for from your audio system. If you want THX level movie audio, full range back loaded horns probably isn't what you want.
Do you want perfect sound in the "Sweet Spot", or decent sound throughout the entire room?
Many of the older style drivers which use large back loaded horns tend to "Beam" the high frequencies. The sound is fabulous in the sweet spot and not as good elsewhere. They use large back loaded horns because they have rather weak bass which needs all the help it can get. These are also the most efficient speakers which is useful for low power triode amps.
New style full range speakers, such as the Mark Audio line, have longer throws for better bass, and much better high frequency dispersion thanks to modern materials and computer aided design. These speakers don't need the huge horns needed for the older designs. They can sound surprisingly good at moderate volume levels.
Finally, you don't know if you will like the sound until the speakers are made. Have simple and cheap boxes made first before making your final boxes. My point being, make sure you have the the right drivers, in the right style cabinets, which gives the sound you want in your room before making something stylish.
Sculpture follows form, which follows function, which follows your audio needs. I like your end desire, but let's get there in a methodical method.
First, you state you have a large room. How large?
What are you looking for from your audio system. If you want THX level movie audio, full range back loaded horns probably isn't what you want.
Do you want perfect sound in the "Sweet Spot", or decent sound throughout the entire room?
Many of the older style drivers which use large back loaded horns tend to "Beam" the high frequencies. The sound is fabulous in the sweet spot and not as good elsewhere. They use large back loaded horns because they have rather weak bass which needs all the help it can get. These are also the most efficient speakers which is useful for low power triode amps.
New style full range speakers, such as the Mark Audio line, have longer throws for better bass, and much better high frequency dispersion thanks to modern materials and computer aided design. These speakers don't need the huge horns needed for the older designs. They can sound surprisingly good at moderate volume levels.
Finally, you don't know if you will like the sound until the speakers are made. Have simple and cheap boxes made first before making your final boxes. My point being, make sure you have the the right drivers, in the right style cabinets, which gives the sound you want in your room before making something stylish.
The room is a large L shape. The upright of the L is 9m long and 3.5m wide and the base of the is 8m x 4m, the total volume is something around 150m3 with typical ceiling height of 2.4m but one end has a higher ceiling of 4m sloping down to 2.4m.
I'm interested in music listening, not home theatre. I do need the sound to work for the room as a whole, not just a single seat in the sweet spot.
I realise, of course, that the physics hasn't changed and horn design is a long-established art. It's not so much that I want a more modern design, more that I figured there must be newer designs I was failing to find.
Thanks for the CNC kits link.
Foo
I'm interested in music listening, not home theatre. I do need the sound to work for the room as a whole, not just a single seat in the sweet spot.
I realise, of course, that the physics hasn't changed and horn design is a long-established art. It's not so much that I want a more modern design, more that I figured there must be newer designs I was failing to find.
Thanks for the CNC kits link.
Foo
Not all that many over the past year or so; these things go in phases.
In my case, the most recent that I've done are in the 1st link in my signature -I try not to talk about them on the forum though, other than if a direct question is asked, so that's as far as I go here. Dave has probably getting on for 20-30 that I've sent over the past couple of years that are in the queue to be drawn up when time permits; there hasn't been any real call / need for them, so they drop down the priority list to be pulled out as & when. I don't think any were especially sculptural though.
In my case, the most recent that I've done are in the 1st link in my signature -I try not to talk about them on the forum though, other than if a direct question is asked, so that's as far as I go here. Dave has probably getting on for 20-30 that I've sent over the past couple of years that are in the queue to be drawn up when time permits; there hasn't been any real call / need for them, so they drop down the priority list to be pulled out as & when. I don't think any were especially sculptural though.
Given the large size of your room and you want listening area as a whole, I don't know if a horn is really best. GregB's Karlsonator is a folded ML-TQWT with a Karlson aperture that provides a wider than normal polar uniformity than a direct radiator on the front of a BLH. It also achieves some very nice deep bass extension of 40Hz with horn-like efficiency. If you don't want to run a 12in fullrange, smaller 10in, 8in, 6in, etc can be made with still excellent bass efficiency. Note the number of views and happy builds in the mini Karlsonator thread. This speaker also has clean impulse response for good dynamics.
I built a pair of Scott's Vulcan cabinets maybe a year ago and have been very happy with them. My room was about 160m3. 6.85m wide x 7.8m long x 3m high. I have rebuilt the room to make it a bit smaller but really just so I can keep the speakers near corners and not 18 ft apart like I had them. I am also using an SET 2a3 amp.
Check out Scott's site though it was great for me.
Check out Scott's site though it was great for me.
OK, now I've finished the latest fight with my insurance company (who are basically doing nothing, a status they have steadfastly maintained for 4 1/2 months), I've got a few more minutes.
-Not a small room, but nor is it enormous; being L-shaped makes things a little more interesting, but not necessarily a problem. You don't say specifically where the system is to be located, nor the type of music that will be most commonly listened to -both of which are important. The former for obvious reasons, people like to dispute the latter, but the blunt truth is that if all you listen to is gentle chamber music at a low average level, you do not require a system capable of reproducing Motorhead at realistic (read 'live') SPLs, with 16Hz LF extension & 50dB dynamic headroom. So optimising for what will be typically used & not worrying over-much about secondary concerns is not unreasonable.
-If possible, you'll want reasonable system sensitivity -over 90dB, given the size of the space. You will also need something with decent HF dispersion. That generally rules out whizzer cones, or drivers with a deep cone profile since their power-response usually dramatically narrows as frequency increases. Assuming a purist single-driver with direct forward radiation, that pretty much means an Alpair 12P; as far as I am aware (I don't pretend omniscience) it is the only reasonably sized widebander currently on the market with that kind of sensitivity and a sufficiently flat cone profile to allow decent performance off-axis, while also retaining solid LF potential. If you wanted to go with HF support, there are some more options: the FE208ESigma for example comes to mind, as it was specifically designed for use with super-tweeters.
-You may (may) want to consider compound horn designs (front & back-load) if you require high sustained output levels and / or considerable dynamic range. These will not help HF dispersion however if the driver is already significantly beaming in the higher frequencies -a point to keep in mind.
-If aesthetics are important (fair enough), you may be in a position to modify an existing design. Just make sure you know what consequences may exist in doing so. For example, smoothing out the pathway of a back-horn may look good, but in some cases, you may end up having a negative effect on performance, as the folding scheme and sharp bends may have been designed as a functional part of the acoustic low-pass filter, and removing these could promote excessive output through the lower midrange, resulting in obvious GD issues and colouring of the overall presentation. My own horns were designed in this way for example.
-If you modify an existing design (related to the above), keep the relative positions of the driver & terminus per the original design as this is usually functional.
-The above isn't necessarily a terrible restriction. There used to be a German company which produced a commercial version of Fostex's free FE103E back-horn (with driver), but used, as I recall, lacquered black MDF for the top, back, base & internal panels, clear Perspex for the sides, then lined the front panel & the internal baffles that made up the horn with blue alcantara. Very pretty indeed. I'm not suggesting you copy that, but it's one example of a way of doing things while maintaining the original design.
-All other things being equal, bigger is better when it comes to horns, up to the point where Fc = F0. All other things are seldom equal of course. 😉
-Not a small room, but nor is it enormous; being L-shaped makes things a little more interesting, but not necessarily a problem. You don't say specifically where the system is to be located, nor the type of music that will be most commonly listened to -both of which are important. The former for obvious reasons, people like to dispute the latter, but the blunt truth is that if all you listen to is gentle chamber music at a low average level, you do not require a system capable of reproducing Motorhead at realistic (read 'live') SPLs, with 16Hz LF extension & 50dB dynamic headroom. So optimising for what will be typically used & not worrying over-much about secondary concerns is not unreasonable.
-If possible, you'll want reasonable system sensitivity -over 90dB, given the size of the space. You will also need something with decent HF dispersion. That generally rules out whizzer cones, or drivers with a deep cone profile since their power-response usually dramatically narrows as frequency increases. Assuming a purist single-driver with direct forward radiation, that pretty much means an Alpair 12P; as far as I am aware (I don't pretend omniscience) it is the only reasonably sized widebander currently on the market with that kind of sensitivity and a sufficiently flat cone profile to allow decent performance off-axis, while also retaining solid LF potential. If you wanted to go with HF support, there are some more options: the FE208ESigma for example comes to mind, as it was specifically designed for use with super-tweeters.
-You may (may) want to consider compound horn designs (front & back-load) if you require high sustained output levels and / or considerable dynamic range. These will not help HF dispersion however if the driver is already significantly beaming in the higher frequencies -a point to keep in mind.
-If aesthetics are important (fair enough), you may be in a position to modify an existing design. Just make sure you know what consequences may exist in doing so. For example, smoothing out the pathway of a back-horn may look good, but in some cases, you may end up having a negative effect on performance, as the folding scheme and sharp bends may have been designed as a functional part of the acoustic low-pass filter, and removing these could promote excessive output through the lower midrange, resulting in obvious GD issues and colouring of the overall presentation. My own horns were designed in this way for example.
-If you modify an existing design (related to the above), keep the relative positions of the driver & terminus per the original design as this is usually functional.
-The above isn't necessarily a terrible restriction. There used to be a German company which produced a commercial version of Fostex's free FE103E back-horn (with driver), but used, as I recall, lacquered black MDF for the top, back, base & internal panels, clear Perspex for the sides, then lined the front panel & the internal baffles that made up the horn with blue alcantara. Very pretty indeed. I'm not suggesting you copy that, but it's one example of a way of doing things while maintaining the original design.
-All other things being equal, bigger is better when it comes to horns, up to the point where Fc = F0. All other things are seldom equal of course. 😉
The Alpair 10p is only a tick behind (about a dB), the last batch i tested were just over 90. It goes a bit lower, and i personally give it the sonic edge.
dave
I pretty much agree with all your points, but feel this one is especially important. Many of the commercial sculptural curvy horns I see appear to be designed by beginners, with priority given to visual impact. That's fine, but a speaker's primary job is to make sound, not look pretty. Of course, there is no reason why they can't do both, but I do hate to see faux functionality being sold as "no compromise" design.
It's generally held that curvy paths seem to generally cause more problems than they solve. I do recall Ron C making some arguments in favor of rounded corners. If they are used, some attention needs to be paid into restricting the BW coming out of the comp chamber, which probably isn't going to look pretty in a horn with see-through sides.
Are the 10p and 12p less directional than the 10m? I am quite fond of my simple 10m speakers, but they are just slightly more directional than I was expecting. They work nicely for my application, and I think they would be fine in that big L shaped room also, but there would be some change in sound as you moved around.
I'll second the recommendation for Karlsonators, obviously. 😉 I'd reckon the 8" size would be about right. These are a close relative of a compound horn, and generally deliver good even dispersion and good bass. As with any design, there are compromises. Whether or not they are 'sculptural' enough for you I don't know. They could be built with fancy woods and clear acrylic sides if you are so inclined.
I also like the idea of a compound horn. Unfortunately there aren't too many designs floating around. The first thing that comes to mind is a dressed up TP1 with supertweeters on top to improve dispersion. Front horns and full range drivers are great fun, but they do squeeze the pattern.
A TP1 is not exactly the latest design is it? 😉
I'll second the recommendation for Karlsonators, obviously. 😉 I'd reckon the 8" size would be about right. These are a close relative of a compound horn, and generally deliver good even dispersion and good bass. As with any design, there are compromises. Whether or not they are 'sculptural' enough for you I don't know. They could be built with fancy woods and clear acrylic sides if you are so inclined.
I also like the idea of a compound horn. Unfortunately there aren't too many designs floating around. The first thing that comes to mind is a dressed up TP1 with supertweeters on top to improve dispersion. Front horns and full range drivers are great fun, but they do squeeze the pattern.
A TP1 is not exactly the latest design is it? 😉
hmm, it seems you've dissuaded from a curvy horn design made of perspex...
The speakers would be at the bottom of the L, facing back up along the upright of it. The listening position is mostly about 12 feet away facing the base of the L or a further 6 feet past that in the kitchen area. It's not a dedicated listening room.
Music-wise, Dire Straits Brothers in Arms, Lady Antebellum, Natalie Cole, John Legend, Kacey Musgraves would be fairly indicative. Some dance (90s House) too, but I don't expect to feel the sub on that.
I'd not come across the Karlsonator before it was mentioned here. They sound interesting and I'll read some more there.
Time to read and learn a lot more, obviously.
Thanks a lot for the guidance 🙂
Foo
The speakers would be at the bottom of the L, facing back up along the upright of it. The listening position is mostly about 12 feet away facing the base of the L or a further 6 feet past that in the kitchen area. It's not a dedicated listening room.
Music-wise, Dire Straits Brothers in Arms, Lady Antebellum, Natalie Cole, John Legend, Kacey Musgraves would be fairly indicative. Some dance (90s House) too, but I don't expect to feel the sub on that.
I'd not come across the Karlsonator before it was mentioned here. They sound interesting and I'll read some more there.
Time to read and learn a lot more, obviously.
Thanks a lot for the guidance 🙂
Foo
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