I totally agree. I love his videos as well. The horns - i dont know how low, but maybe 1500hz? Its crossed at 2200hz with a dome tweeter.He does a pretty good job, those horns look fantastic. How low do they go? You make them?
I had a really talented guy to make them for me, and he charged me 1000ddk (150usd)
I’m happy ☺️
Been there, done that and born math shy, so nowadays rely on various little programs such as Convert, some online.ot going insane, just poor at math at the moment.
The Fb (box tuning frequency) determines how low the box will go.I already have a 115L vented cabinet for testing. The comparison i posted was done with 100L enclosure, so hopefully it Will go lower a few hz.
I’m on a steep learning curve, and a couple of days in this Forum already gave me a lot.
The Fb can be lowered by extending the ports, raised by shortening them.
The Fb is independent of the driver, any driver in the box will have the same Fb, but the alignment, the response around Fb changes depending on the driver's TS parameters.
The size of the box determines the sensitivity, the lower the Fb, the larger the box required for (somewhat..) flat response down to Fb when Fb is below the driver's Fs.
Even with your cabinet almost double the driver's Vas of 62.9L, response will be considerably less than "flat" in the low end.
At Fb, the port output is 90 degrees out of phase with the direct radiator, response is -3dB.
Below Fb, the port output transitions to 180 degrees out of phase with the direct radiator, response drops at ~24dB per octave, the driver "unloads", excursion (and distortion) goes up, no musical output.
Anyway you cut it, your woofers are ruled by Hofmann's Iron law- low, efficient, small, pick two 😉
The 480's Fc is ~480Hz, it can load near that low, but its response will probably be more than -6dB down near Fc, and drop at near 24dB per octave below that, even without a crossover.The Yuichi horn is loading approx 6-700hz, so my plan was to cross it beginning around the drop at 500hz, so the response was flatter. The compression driver goes easily down 600hz.
Most prefer to cross closer to an octave above Fc.
Assuming ~204 Hz Fhm, 6.05 cm dia. dustcap = ~34400/pi/6.05 = ~1810 Hz, then its pistonic mean = (204*1810)^0.5 = ~ 608 Hz polar matching using 1st order is where I'd start experimenting.......Crossover point is not decided yet, but around 600-1000hz
OK. At least VituixCAD and SpeakerSim are integrated tools that will support reflex boxes & diffraction & imported curves for that (for 2 that come to mind). There's a sticky of wintermute's that might aid thinking through the process that also contains a list of tools. If you choose big-duct/backhorn-type, you'll have to do that in something other than the two listed previously (eg Hornresp) and merge that.This was my original plan.
But i dont have enough experience to tell how the response could look like in a box. ...
Yup, one is the datasheet trace and the other has the IEC diffraction removed.Is that a trace of the graph at Beorne’s link? Remeber,it ison an IEC baffle which will have a baffle width based roll-off, not necessarily the drivers. ...
Thanks for that suggestion. Good idea to use a simulation before start cutting sheets.OK. At least VituixCAD and SpeakerSim are integrated tools that will support reflex boxes & diffraction & imported curves for that (for 2 that come to mind). There's a sticky of wintermute's that might aid thinking through the process that also contains a list of tools. If you choose big-duct/backhorn-type, you'll have to do that in something other than the two listed previously (eg Hornresp) and merge that.
Maybe I was sounding like that it was important for me to go as low as possible, thats not the case. Is i understand it, sensitivity decreases, if you go low, so im aiming for 95dB, but i guess this is to be simulated as Well. My first speakers were tuned for 53hz (-3db) and there was plenty of deep bass! (12inch+1”cd)
Thomas
Yes, this will be my starting point, im 3D printning a lager backcover for the 65cdn-t for lower fs, and less distortion.Assuming ~204 Hz Fhm, 6.05 cm dia. dustcap = ~34400/pi/6.05 = ~1810 Hz, then its pistonic mean = (204*1810)^0.5 = ~ 608 Hz polar matching using 1st order is where I'd start experimenting.......
(Joseph Crowe)
Im using xsim for simulating crossover and padding.
I have MiniDSP for double checking, before ordering Miflex caps ☺️
You were 100% right on this @weltersys .Room effects could increase or decrease level at various frequencies compared to the simulation.
The simulation of the BIANCO-12MW200 (Vas 62.9L) in an oversize 100liter with a 40Hz Fb (box tuning) appears to show 90dB at 40 Hz, 9 dB down from it's 99dB sensitivity at 500Hz.
The low end would sound less than half as loud as the mid range.
Lower the Fb to 35Hz, and the low end would would drop another 3-5dB.
I have had the woofer in ported box, and the sound is really meager and thin. I tought I'll give it a few hours to "break in", without any big change.
Hopefully I'm able to sell the drivers to someone who needs 12" mid monitors. My measurement show that the box only adds a few dBs to the response!
SO, i´m in the market for other drivers. I guess I will have to sacrifice the sensitivity for more sub bass. Sometimes you need to make mistakes into gold 🙂
Any suggestions? About 100L, 35hz F3. min, 92dB (calculated) - I have my eyes on Beyma 12BR70, and Faital Pro 12PR320.
Since you are running the woofer up to 600+Hz, I'd suggest looking for 15" rather than a 12" to reduce excursion for a given output. The Fs should be around 35hz minimum.Any suggestions? About 100L, 35hz F3. min, 92dB (calculated) - I have my eyes on Beyma 12BR70, and Faital Pro 12PR320.
i just don’t want a 150L Box. But, maybe i should keep looking. It needs to be quite linear to the bottom, or else i have no need of a good sensitivity. Then ill have to cross the mid down.Since you are running the woofer up to 600+Hz, I'd suggest looking for 15"
Dayton PA380 could have some potential maybe.
https://www.daytonaudio.com/images/resources/295-034-dayton-audio-pa380-8-specifications-46884.pdf
It's possible to use a BLH, but far from ideal i think. The FS is to high and the QTS also. It will need a horn so big to get that low that it won't be pratical. I would use a different driver. If you insist on a backloaded horn tht goes low look more for a driver with an FS max 10Hz higher than wanted fs and a low q (at least below 0.35). I would more look at an Faital 15FH500 or 15FH510 or an 18Sound 15LW2400 for a backloaded horn like this. They will be a lot smaller than with the SB Audience driver.
If you can live with a much lower sensivity, a lot more is possible. Look maybe also at the Faital 12RS430 or 12FE330, or the Beyma 12BR70. And i'm sure there is more that can do a clean 35-600Hz in a not so big enclosure at decent sensivity. All these drivers go loud enough for a small party.
I did use the 12BR70 in a big MLTL tuned to 30Hz crossed at 900Hz for a garden system. You could make it a lot smaller if you use a normal ported cabinet. A 100L can be tuned to 30Hz without to long ports.
If you can live with a much lower sensivity, a lot more is possible. Look maybe also at the Faital 12RS430 or 12FE330, or the Beyma 12BR70. And i'm sure there is more that can do a clean 35-600Hz in a not so big enclosure at decent sensivity. All these drivers go loud enough for a small party.
I did use the 12BR70 in a big MLTL tuned to 30Hz crossed at 900Hz for a garden system. You could make it a lot smaller if you use a normal ported cabinet. A 100L can be tuned to 30Hz without to long ports.
Sounds good! How was the Beyma? Dynamics, midrange? Did the horn raise sensitivity a bit?I did use the 12BR70 in a big MLTL tuned to 30Hz crossed at 900Hz for a garden system. You could make it a lot smaller if you use a normal ported cabinet. A 100L can be tuned to 30Hz without to long ports.
Its always a compromise when it comes to that. Or else Big boxes are last way out!
The MLTL is not a horn, but a mass loaded transmission line, so no sensivity gain. The midrange is good, but don't cross higher than 1kHz. But as you want to cross at 600hz, that should not be a problem. The driver plays also very good on low level (that is probally what you mean with dynamics), it's not the typical subwoofer with heavy cone that need a few watt to move. It does not go that loud (but still 110dB more or less) as compromise.
I crossed it at 900Hz with a steep dsp crossover to a Faital HF-201 in a 90x40 horn (P-Audio variation of the JBL 2380). This will be used for smal reggae parties, mostly in open air in the summer.
I crossed it at 900Hz with a steep dsp crossover to a Faital HF-201 in a 90x40 horn (P-Audio variation of the JBL 2380). This will be used for smal reggae parties, mostly in open air in the summer.
Oh thats good to know. I was just a bit worried about the dip around 150-350hz, but maybe its not audioble when put it in a box.it's not the typical subwoofer with heavy cone that need a few watt to move. It does not go that loud (but still 110dB more or less) as compromise.
Have you tried playing it with tube amps?
No, because it's an outside speaker with dsp crossover. But i know people who used it (also on this forum) with a tube amp and that should not be a problem i think. Just count in that tube amp will boost the bass a bit (due to the low damping factor). We used modern class D pro audio (Crown) amps for this setup
Ok - so you did not notice a dip in midtone? I have EQ on my WiiM Ultra, but i Think it depends on the tube amp, and the transformers, how good they reproduce bass/subbass and if its more or less bass.
Its not really comperable to SS watts either.
I have a SET KT88 13w tubeamp. And it plays as loud as a 50w solidstate.
Its not really comperable to SS watts either.
I have a SET KT88 13w tubeamp. And it plays as loud as a 50w solidstate.
I know tube amps and their effects (different damping and harmonic distortion), i have one (PP EL34 35w) here also. But I don't use those for parties, that is for home. But you can use a tube amp, just expect a bit more bass than with a solid state due to the damping. That is a known effect off all high output impendance/low damping factor amps. Off course with tube amps the output transformer must be able to give bass first (but i guess you tested yours on that already). But i prefer a cleaner controlled bass of high damping amp (and use the tubes for the top). That is how i use mine often.
The dip in the graph is in reality not really hearable, and many drivers have that (some show it in the spec, others smooth it out), it's inherent at the size of the driver. But its a relative small dip, and you don't notice that in reality. It's cased by the surrounds (acoustic effect).
The dip in the graph is in reality not really hearable, and many drivers have that (some show it in the spec, others smooth it out), it's inherent at the size of the driver. But its a relative small dip, and you don't notice that in reality. It's cased by the surrounds (acoustic effect).
Oh, I don't plan to use my tubes for parties either, haha 😎 Only listening levels ! And I assume that you use DSP to cross the drivers, if you use tubes for highs. My opinion is that DSP is cheating.. haha. I know a lot of people use DSP, and I have one myself for testing sound before ordering caps and coils. But I prefer passive crossing. Thank you for your experience with 12BR70. Sometimes a real review tell you more than 100 datasheets 🙂
Waxx, Have you heard the Faital 12FE330 yourself? It looks like the sensitivity is reasonable, compared to Beyma 12BR70. And could be closer the aLook maybe also at the Faital 12RS430 or 12FE330, or the Beyma 12BR70. And i'm sure there is more that can do a clean 35-600Hz in a not so big enclosure at decent sensivity. All these drivers go loud enough for a small party.
real life sensitivity
.... the response looks also at bit more linear in midrange.I've heared them in a TH on a 12v minisound (small mobile version of a reggae soundsystem running from a car battery) last summer, playing heavy dub. They were crossed lower (in a 3 way) than i would, but sounded great. I do plan to use the smaller version (10FE330) for an own build, but live did get in the way to really start that project.
But I've heared and used other faital drivers before, and they are all close to the spec sheet, it's one of the better "pro audio" brands for hifi if you ask me. The Beyma is a bit less polite in sound, but very easy to eq to where you want it. I think both are great.
But I've heared and used other faital drivers before, and they are all close to the spec sheet, it's one of the better "pro audio" brands for hifi if you ask me. The Beyma is a bit less polite in sound, but very easy to eq to where you want it. I think both are great.
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