So I brought them inside today and fitted in the drivers, got them hooked up. They are really heavy!! Must be 40 or 50kgs in each one.
So to cut a long story short, I am a very happy camper
The good points:
1. No harshness at all, no spittiness and no evidence of that peaky treble
2. Loads of bass and bass weight
3. Lovely easy on the ear sound - I wouldn't say they would be fatiguing at all.
4. Seem to be able to cope with anything I threw at them - even complex passages that can make some drivers go all hard.
5. Vocals sound great, especially impressive here.
The bits for improvement:
1. I think theres some room for improvement in the bass and lower mid range - its seems ever so slightly slow or overblown.
2. I have good soundstage depth but not that great side to side, and this may well be due to my positioning - the fonkens in those positions had a wider soundstage.
I don't want the above to be taken as a criticism - I am genuinely delighted with how they sound. Also, I have no wadding anywhere inside and I seem to remember reading somewhere about adding some in the chamber the driver sits in. Really the only area I'd be looking to do something is I think maybe, just maybe, theres slightly too much bass (can't believe I'm actually saying that!). Maybe that needs some little bit of tuning to tone it down a shade and make it a bit firmer. Perhaps its just a case of now tuning the horn to suit my room?
Other areas for improvement are the phase plugs, I'll start on those soon. Maybe doing those would improve the width of the soundstage. The great thing is that they are great as is - so anything else I gain is really icing on the cake!
In short a big thank you to Dave and Scott for the plans and design. You guys are tops
Fran
So to cut a long story short, I am a very happy camper
The good points:
1. No harshness at all, no spittiness and no evidence of that peaky treble
2. Loads of bass and bass weight
3. Lovely easy on the ear sound - I wouldn't say they would be fatiguing at all.
4. Seem to be able to cope with anything I threw at them - even complex passages that can make some drivers go all hard.
5. Vocals sound great, especially impressive here.
The bits for improvement:
1. I think theres some room for improvement in the bass and lower mid range - its seems ever so slightly slow or overblown.
2. I have good soundstage depth but not that great side to side, and this may well be due to my positioning - the fonkens in those positions had a wider soundstage.
I don't want the above to be taken as a criticism - I am genuinely delighted with how they sound. Also, I have no wadding anywhere inside and I seem to remember reading somewhere about adding some in the chamber the driver sits in. Really the only area I'd be looking to do something is I think maybe, just maybe, theres slightly too much bass (can't believe I'm actually saying that!). Maybe that needs some little bit of tuning to tone it down a shade and make it a bit firmer. Perhaps its just a case of now tuning the horn to suit my room?
Other areas for improvement are the phase plugs, I'll start on those soon. Maybe doing those would improve the width of the soundstage. The great thing is that they are great as is - so anything else I gain is really icing on the cake!
In short a big thank you to Dave and Scott for the plans and design. You guys are tops
Fran
Standard damping is to line the back-chamber top, one sidewall & back (keeping the throat clear, obviously) with 1/2in wool felt or similar. Adjust from there to suit yourself. They're designed for big spaces & need a lot of breathing room; they're also a relatively high-gain design, which is why the LF will seem a little overpowering in some spaces: that's deliberate -it's always easier to loose what you have too much of than conjure up what doesn't exist in the first place.
You'll have to fool with the positioning for optimal imaging to suit your own space -they're not going to equal the Fonkens in terms of pinpoint spacial precision; Sachiko is a 6ft tall double back-horn with an 8in Fostex, not a mini-monitor. OTOH, the tradeoff in imaging terms is greater soundstage height & depth.
You'll have to fool with the positioning for optimal imaging to suit your own space -they're not going to equal the Fonkens in terms of pinpoint spacial precision; Sachiko is a 6ft tall double back-horn with an 8in Fostex, not a mini-monitor. OTOH, the tradeoff in imaging terms is greater soundstage height & depth.
Zen mod: I take that as high praise indeed. But all I did here was build them not design them! They are big though!! even bigger in the house it seems than when they were outside in the workshop! They're deep as well as high. The kids had great fun this evening putting their heads up into the bottom mouth!
Scott: Many thanks for the advise. I will proceed with caution - and try a little bit at a time. I'm also concious that the fostex are essentially new so may well change with use. And you are spot on with the trade off of spatial imaging vs. depth. To be honest, the spatial imaging is nice, but natural tone and clarity comes first. The other thing thats nice is that the sweet spot is fairly big, they sound good from the next room and as mentioned before, show no harshness at all.
So I will adjust the damping a little and report as I go. So just to be clear - the more damping, the more the bass should decrease?
*******************************
What do people do wrt support for these? Do they all just sit on the floor or do people put spikes, isolation or anything under them? I'm only asking so I can prepare for when I am painting them....
Fran
They are big though!! even bigger in the house it seems than when they were outside in the workshop! They're deep as well as high. The kids had great fun this evening putting their heads up into the bottom mouth!Scott: Many thanks for the advise. I will proceed with caution - and try a little bit at a time. I'm also concious that the fostex are essentially new so may well change with use. And you are spot on with the trade off of spatial imaging vs. depth. To be honest, the spatial imaging is nice, but natural tone and clarity comes first. The other thing thats nice is that the sweet spot is fairly big, they sound good from the next room and as mentioned before, show no harshness at all.
So I will adjust the damping a little and report as I go. So just to be clear - the more damping, the more the bass should decrease?
*******************************
What do people do wrt support for these? Do they all just sit on the floor or do people put spikes, isolation or anything under them? I'm only asking so I can prepare for when I am painting them....
Fran
So I added the damping as suggested by scottmoose. I had the 1/2" wool felt here so lined the top, one side and back of the chamber. Replaced the drivers and I have to say it made a pretty large difference. I was really surprised by this.
The bass is cooled down - its now at a nice level, I suppose I would describe it as "full side of natural". Definitely no lack of it at all. Also, the bass seems more tuneful and faster. The other thing I noticed is that the treble seems a bit sweeter too. So all in all a very good day!!
Other news: I tricked about a bit with positioning and toe in, and I reckon I have the soundstage to about 90% of the fonkens/quads. Not bad I can tell you - and thats critically listening and watching for that snare over at the back over there...... so in day to day listening its not something you would notice I think.
Never having listened to horns before, they sound better than I thought they would. The other thing is that they seem to be quite a natural listen. I couldn't see you getting any fatigue listening to them. They maybe are a bit less detailed than the FE127e, but then I would also say that they do sound a bit "warmer" than the FE127e - and you could probably loose a bit of the treble adn not miss it. I had these drivers (FE206e) in another box before and they would rip your ears off if you let them. So this is qutie a revelation. So in short I am really pleased so far
So I want to listen for longer to a broader range of music before thinking about adding any more damping. I feel like I might need just a bit more but I want to be careful and not rob much of that warmth. The other thing to do are the phase plugs. I decided to use some purple heart I had here so I roughed them out tonight and I think I will leave the blanks inside to acclimatise for a while before finishing them:
I need to get a few new scalpel blades before tackling the drivers!!
Fran
The bass is cooled down - its now at a nice level, I suppose I would describe it as "full side of natural". Definitely no lack of it at all. Also, the bass seems more tuneful and faster. The other thing I noticed is that the treble seems a bit sweeter too. So all in all a very good day!!
Other news: I tricked about a bit with positioning and toe in, and I reckon I have the soundstage to about 90% of the fonkens/quads. Not bad I can tell you - and thats critically listening and watching for that snare over at the back over there...... so in day to day listening its not something you would notice I think.
Never having listened to horns before, they sound better than I thought they would. The other thing is that they seem to be quite a natural listen. I couldn't see you getting any fatigue listening to them. They maybe are a bit less detailed than the FE127e, but then I would also say that they do sound a bit "warmer" than the FE127e - and you could probably loose a bit of the treble adn not miss it. I had these drivers (FE206e) in another box before and they would rip your ears off if you let them. So this is qutie a revelation. So in short I am really pleased so far
So I want to listen for longer to a broader range of music before thinking about adding any more damping. I feel like I might need just a bit more but I want to be careful and not rob much of that warmth. The other thing to do are the phase plugs. I decided to use some purple heart I had here so I roughed them out tonight and I think I will leave the blanks inside to acclimatise for a while before finishing them:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I need to get a few new scalpel blades before tackling the drivers!!
Fran
Fran...
I thought you lived in Ireland????
http://www.axminster.co.uk/category-Polyurethane-Glues-553865.htm
I thought you lived in Ireland????
http://www.axminster.co.uk/category-Polyurethane-Glues-553865.htm
Hello old bean!
Yes, I was waiting for that reaction... people often find it surprising what differences a relatively small amount of damping makes. Glad you're starting to enjoy them. You'll find the plugs help with the imaging a bit, although naturally, the bigger drivers can't quite match the smaller ones or electrostatics on that side of things (be a bit surprising if they did really ) -athough they're far from being embarassed, as you're discovering. Consider it a tradeoff -you're sacrificing a little precision in the horizontal plane for much more height & depth to the soundstage, plus greater power-handling / dynamic headroom.
Yes, I was waiting for that reaction... people often find it surprising what differences a relatively small amount of damping makes. Glad you're starting to enjoy them.
You'll find the plugs help with the imaging a bit, although naturally, the bigger drivers can't quite match the smaller ones or electrostatics on that side of things (be a bit surprising if they did really ) -athough they're far from being embarassed, as you're discovering. Consider it a tradeoff -you're sacrificing a little precision in the horizontal plane for much more height & depth to the soundstage, plus greater power-handling / dynamic headroom.Indeed I do - and yes I know axminister quite well, but you they only deliver that titebond to the UK mainland only
. See its not that easy!!!Scottmoose:
Yes, pretty happy with them. Very satisfying listening! I'm conciuous of allowing them to run in a little more and then doing the phase plugs. Later on the week maybe. I'm a bit terrified too of making a balls of it and damaging the driver. Sharp scalpel and a quiet house would make a good start. The missus has been asked what colour she would like them to be. So I think black with the front baffle natural is the current plan.
I have a note on my desk say phase plugs 33mm x 56mm but I cant remember where I got that info. In any case I'll cut the dustcap out first, measure and then fit them. As to the profile - I have an old crocked lowther driver here and it has a phase plug the same length but a bit fatter, so I think I will copy its profile. That leaves the start of the taper between half and 2/3 of the way along the plug. Is 3 embedded screws enough? How hard is it to adjust the phase plug position and do I need to figure some way of being able to remove it (how hard does the magnet hold them)?
Fran
woodturner-fran said:
About 2/3 the way down... http://www.planet10-hifi.com/pp-info.html
3 screws is enuff... if you leave the finish with a bit of texture they are much easier to remove. Skinny fingers help too.
dave
woodturner-fran said:
Indeed I do - and yes I know axminister quite well, but you they only deliver that titebond to the UK mainland only
Fran
What
I thought everything inside EU was getting easier?
Being outside EU, I see that I have constantly larger problems getting hold of stuff, but this is just too silly.....
So after listening over the course of the last week, I reckoned I still had a bit too much bass. Well, putting it like that is a bt misleading - its not so much that theres too much - more like the bass needs to improve in quality. Hard to describe this in words. Needs to lose a bit of boom and gain a little speed perhaps?
Anyway, I decided to add a little more damping, so I added a piece of 1/2" wool felt to the bottom of the chamber (so thats the top, side, bottom and back of the chamber done, one wall left bare). Again, the quality comes up, the treble improves and to my ears at least, imaging gets (slightly) better. So all in all a good move.
So the plan now is to again wait a little, listen with a broad range of music and reevaluate. Right now though I think its prbably there. A more important step is maybe to do the phase plugs. I suppose the beauty of the damping is that you can remove it, but with the phase plugs there ain't no going back.
Have't read anyone with a negative comment about them though.
Fran
Anyway, I decided to add a little more damping, so I added a piece of 1/2" wool felt to the bottom of the chamber (so thats the top, side, bottom and back of the chamber done, one wall left bare). Again, the quality comes up, the treble improves and to my ears at least, imaging gets (slightly) better. So all in all a good move.
So the plan now is to again wait a little, listen with a broad range of music and reevaluate. Right now though I think its prbably there. A more important step is maybe to do the phase plugs. I suppose the beauty of the damping is that you can remove it, but with the phase plugs there ain't no going back.
Have't read anyone with a negative comment about them though.
Fran
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