copyright, etc...
copyright is a really slippery area to be involved with. As I understand it, if a design is put on the Internet by the original designer, both copyright and patents can be enforced. But there is the concept of "public domain" which (again under my interpretation) suggests that if the original designer did not want the design to be used, why was it posted by him/her anywhere on the internet?
Again, I'm assuming that the original design(s) with no changes were copied and then presented as another's intellectual property.
Often "prior art" is enough to allow the defence of a patent or copyright.
stew
copyright is a really slippery area to be involved with. As I understand it, if a design is put on the Internet by the original designer, both copyright and patents can be enforced. But there is the concept of "public domain" which (again under my interpretation) suggests that if the original designer did not want the design to be used, why was it posted by him/her anywhere on the internet?
Again, I'm assuming that the original design(s) with no changes were copied and then presented as another's intellectual property.
Often "prior art" is enough to allow the defence of a patent or copyright.
stew
? Surely ? Designs/technology already in the public domain (diyAudio) cannot be retrospectively protected by a Patent, even by the original designer ?
Should any Patent be granted, then its owner cannot challenge another user and the Patent could be rendered worthless if it can be shown that the ideas/technology which are the subject of that Patent either existed or were in use (ie. not novel) before the Patent was granted.
Designers must keep quiet about their ideas until Patent Agent/Office searches for Prior Art have been completed and the Patent Office has acknowledged 'Patent Applied For' status.
And when it comes to Copyright, anyone can re-draw or re-write, as long as they do not photographically reproduce a Copyrighted drawing or use the same words as an original text without the author's permission; where if granted, then authorship and origin are generally acknowledged.
Cheers ............. Graham.
Should any Patent be granted, then its owner cannot challenge another user and the Patent could be rendered worthless if it can be shown that the ideas/technology which are the subject of that Patent either existed or were in use (ie. not novel) before the Patent was granted.
Designers must keep quiet about their ideas until Patent Agent/Office searches for Prior Art have been completed and the Patent Office has acknowledged 'Patent Applied For' status.
And when it comes to Copyright, anyone can re-draw or re-write, as long as they do not photographically reproduce a Copyrighted drawing or use the same words as an original text without the author's permission; where if granted, then authorship and origin are generally acknowledged.
Cheers ............. Graham.
Graham Maynard said:
Well, yes and no. As an artist I have delt with this exact situation in the past. I can in fact enforce a copyright on the design itself. I filed the copyrights each time prior to posting them and though it doesn't hold the weight of a patent, the copyright holds enough weight to ruin anyone attempting to use a design for commercial gains. I can assure you though that my copyrights do hold water. Intellectual property is the area in which this type of copyright sits if you are at all interested.
Regardless, I am no fool. I educated myself quite extensively on the subject before I started putting out my plans. I am confident that they are protected.
In regards to your statement about patents. You are actually incorrect about your assumption. A patent, if it has been applied for protects the prospective holder until a point at which the patent has either been deemed non-original or until it becomes a certified patent, in which case it is definitely protected. Many people assume that patents are secret when in fact they are a matter of public record. So, that being the case, if I filed a patent on a design element (very diffifcult to file patents on entire designs), that patent pending is protected whether I put it out in the public to be viewed or not. Patents are not intended to keep things a secret from others but to keep others from taking design elements that are specifically the intellectual property of the holder and using them for financial gain.
Tom
My understanding is that one can copyright a work, but not a design. I'm fascinated by this idea of putting a DIY design out there for feedback, as if feedback were a form of payment. There's plenty of room for commercial designs too, of course. If I had one, I might treat it as a trade secret, though. I'm just a noob, though, and certainly no lawyer.
Mightym,
Let me see if I can answer these questions in order.
1. S.P.Q.R. --Actually the SPQR is reference to the Latin “Senatus Populusque Romanus (”The Senate and the Roman People”). I kind of see it as a great DIY and maybe one day commercial name. What better way to look at my DIY designs as an “of the people for the people” kind of endeavor. I hope that is detailed enough. (Oh and it sounds like speaker when you say it as a word, cheezy but effective)
2. The chamfering can be done all the way around or just the sides of the speaker opening. Not doing on the top and bottom shouldn't effect air flow to an extent that matters. Sure it is tight but to make the design more shallow and wider, the trade off was less vertical space in the back chamber.
3. The problem with a back horn and thin plywood is going to be flex which translates in to vibration which in your case will mean a strange booming effect (this is speculation of course) but at the horn mouth with only half in ply, you will have a lot of flex. 50 Hz is fairly deep and can be effected and literally amplified quite a bit by flex.
4. Well, in my simulations I place the back of the cabinets 5 inches from the back wall. This seems to give pretty good results. The only true way to know though will be to play with placement. One thing you can be sure of though, the furthur from the back wall you go, the less your low end will be effected by the rear wall. So, in effect you could cut back how much low end you are getting by getting them away from the rear wall. Imaging should be very good.
5. For the A11, I managed pretty good results with elmers glue (watered heavily) in about 4 coats. (Be careful here, it isn't too hard to ruin a driver with too much coating). Felting the magnet and the inside of the frame, used ductseal on the outside of the frame to cut basket ring. Remove the dustcap and make phase plugs. Thin strip of felt glued around the center of the cone around the phase plug (careful not to have it to far in that it rubs on the phase plug). And that's about it. I imagine Enabling the driver will help as well. This driver has some serious diffraction issues so that would be a pretty crucial upgrade. Other than that, I can't think of anything else.
6. There are a few theoretical ways of dealing with the overblown bass. You can shrink the throat a bit (that is what I am talking about above with the foam wedges, you could make the CC slightly larger (which is not the easy on this particular design). You can adjust the placement of the speaker in room. You can put some acoustistuff in the path but this can have detrimental effects on microdynamics.
So, in the end there are quite a few tradeoffs that must be considered. Like I said, it really can't hurt unless 22 bux is detrimental to you. I like trying things that aren't supposed to work. I find it challenging and fun to figure out ways to make the unworkable work.
You can also wait a couple of weeks as the first incarnation of this enclosure will be done then and we will be getting a report about this enclosure with the A11 as that is the driver that the builder wants to try first. We will see. Good luck!
TOm
Let me see if I can answer these questions in order.
1. S.P.Q.R. --Actually the SPQR is reference to the Latin “Senatus Populusque Romanus (”The Senate and the Roman People”). I kind of see it as a great DIY and maybe one day commercial name. What better way to look at my DIY designs as an “of the people for the people” kind of endeavor. I hope that is detailed enough. (Oh and it sounds like speaker when you say it as a word, cheezy but effective)
2. The chamfering can be done all the way around or just the sides of the speaker opening. Not doing on the top and bottom shouldn't effect air flow to an extent that matters. Sure it is tight but to make the design more shallow and wider, the trade off was less vertical space in the back chamber.
3. The problem with a back horn and thin plywood is going to be flex which translates in to vibration which in your case will mean a strange booming effect (this is speculation of course) but at the horn mouth with only half in ply, you will have a lot of flex. 50 Hz is fairly deep and can be effected and literally amplified quite a bit by flex.
4. Well, in my simulations I place the back of the cabinets 5 inches from the back wall. This seems to give pretty good results. The only true way to know though will be to play with placement. One thing you can be sure of though, the furthur from the back wall you go, the less your low end will be effected by the rear wall. So, in effect you could cut back how much low end you are getting by getting them away from the rear wall. Imaging should be very good.
5. For the A11, I managed pretty good results with elmers glue (watered heavily) in about 4 coats. (Be careful here, it isn't too hard to ruin a driver with too much coating). Felting the magnet and the inside of the frame, used ductseal on the outside of the frame to cut basket ring. Remove the dustcap and make phase plugs. Thin strip of felt glued around the center of the cone around the phase plug (careful not to have it to far in that it rubs on the phase plug). And that's about it. I imagine Enabling the driver will help as well. This driver has some serious diffraction issues so that would be a pretty crucial upgrade. Other than that, I can't think of anything else.
6. There are a few theoretical ways of dealing with the overblown bass. You can shrink the throat a bit (that is what I am talking about above with the foam wedges, you could make the CC slightly larger (which is not the easy on this particular design). You can adjust the placement of the speaker in room. You can put some acoustistuff in the path but this can have detrimental effects on microdynamics.
So, in the end there are quite a few tradeoffs that must be considered. Like I said, it really can't hurt unless 22 bux is detrimental to you. I like trying things that aren't supposed to work. I find it challenging and fun to figure out ways to make the unworkable work.
You can also wait a couple of weeks as the first incarnation of this enclosure will be done then and we will be getting a report about this enclosure with the A11 as that is the driver that the builder wants to try first. We will see. Good luck!
TOm
Re: May I suggest something...
There are very good reasons that I didn't do what you are suggesting in your alteration of the drawing. If you are curious, try reading some writing or looking at some patents by Harry Olson, or look at designs by Tetsuo Nagaoka. The straight sections with abrupt direction changes serve as a high frequency filter disallowing the majority of high frequency waves from reaching the mouth of the horn.
Tom
Nikolas Ojala said:
There are very good reasons that I didn't do what you are suggesting in your alteration of the drawing. If you are curious, try reading some writing or looking at some patents by Harry Olson, or look at designs by Tetsuo Nagaoka. The straight sections with abrupt direction changes serve as a high frequency filter disallowing the majority of high frequency waves from reaching the mouth of the horn.
Tom
Look, here is a quote from the US patent and copyright office guide to copyrighting. I am no longer open to arguing this. I know my rights, have filed copyrights and know I am protected. This should get the idea across.
What Works Are Protected?
Copyright protects “original works of authorship” that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:
1. literary works;
2. musical works, including any accompanying words
3. dramatic works, including any accompanying music
4. pantomimes and choreographic works
5. pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
6. motion pictures and other audiovisual works
7. sound recordings
8. architectural works
These categories should be viewed broadly. For example, computer programs and most “compilations” may be registered as “literary works”; maps and architectural plans may be registered as “pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works.”
What Is Not Protected by Copyright?
Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:
*
Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)
*
Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents
*
Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration
*
Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)
What Works Are Protected?
Copyright protects “original works of authorship” that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:
1. literary works;
2. musical works, including any accompanying words
3. dramatic works, including any accompanying music
4. pantomimes and choreographic works
5. pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
6. motion pictures and other audiovisual works
7. sound recordings
8. architectural works
These categories should be viewed broadly. For example, computer programs and most “compilations” may be registered as “literary works”; maps and architectural plans may be registered as “pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works.”
What Is Not Protected by Copyright?
Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:
*
Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)
*
Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents
*
Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration
*
Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)
SPQR II
Tom,
Thnx for your reply, still want to know the radius of the horn mouth cut, and what that seemingly stray measurement is on the pdf of the plan.
Do you think a vertical brace that was centered ( or just off center ala P10 ) behind the driver down to the last fold would help Re; using the 1/2" ply?
I don't know if I can wait Two Weeks, I may have to jump the gun....
John B.
Tom,
Thnx for your reply, still want to know the radius of the horn mouth cut, and what that seemingly stray measurement is on the pdf of the plan.
Do you think a vertical brace that was centered ( or just off center ala P10 ) behind the driver down to the last fold would help Re; using the 1/2" ply?
I don't know if I can wait Two Weeks, I may have to jump the gun....
John B.
Harderror said:
Sorry.. didn't mean to sidetrack your thread or get you into arguing about this admittedly confusing area of law.
But as far as knowing "your rights" in this particular instance.. I don't think so.
..rather than "debating" the topic, you might want to reflect on *why* I would even comment on this (..it certainly wasn't for my benefit).😉 (Hint, hint - any IP lawyer in the US worth squat would confer a similar sentiment in this instance.)
BTW, I like the S.P.Q.R. name.. (reminds me of playing Rome Total War.😀 ).
I gotcha Scott. I have delt with this through a lawyer however. (Lucky to have one as a best friend). We may be wrong I suppose but the Patent Trademark office has accepted the submissions as Sculptural. I can prove that it is not an amalgamation of other public domain parts (accept in the broadest sense), and just as there is protection for all of my photography and sculpture (which is also protected, remember I told you I was a sculptor and artist) so too is this work protected. Anyone can think what they want but facts are facts. I would suggest a good read at the US patent and Trademark website.
Understand, I didn't mean to attack, I have just spent many years trying to protect my intellectual property rights. If I am wrong about all of this then I am screwed. Ok, no more of that. THanks for the complement on the name, I know it is a bit cheezy but is fun nonetheless. (oh one other thing. I don't think I need to question why someone would want to argue this, I just assume the worst 🙂).
MightyM
Believe it or not, I decided the radius was mostly arbitrary as it is not lending any help to the wavefront since the mouth is nearly square. Hang on, let me go get you an idea of what I set the radius to. Ok, the radius is around 12 and a half feet, but anywhere from 9-13 foot radius should give you the look that I have in the plans.
What seemingly stray measurement are you referring to?
Yes, any bracing will help if you are using 1/2 inch ply. And double up the sides. Good luck!
Tom
Understand, I didn't mean to attack, I have just spent many years trying to protect my intellectual property rights. If I am wrong about all of this then I am screwed. Ok, no more of that. THanks for the complement on the name, I know it is a bit cheezy but is fun nonetheless. (oh one other thing. I don't think I need to question why someone would want to argue this, I just assume the worst 🙂).
MightyM
Believe it or not, I decided the radius was mostly arbitrary as it is not lending any help to the wavefront since the mouth is nearly square. Hang on, let me go get you an idea of what I set the radius to. Ok, the radius is around 12 and a half feet, but anywhere from 9-13 foot radius should give you the look that I have in the plans.
What seemingly stray measurement are you referring to?
Yes, any bracing will help if you are using 1/2 inch ply. And double up the sides. Good luck!
Tom
What is copyright?
Copyright is a form of protection provided by U.S. law to the authors of "original works of authorship" fixed in any tangible medium of expression. The manner and medium of fixation are virtually unlimited. Creative expression may be captured in words, numbers, notes, sounds, pictures, or any other graphic or symbolic media. The subject matter of copyright is extremely broad, including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, audiovisual, and architectural works. Copyright protection is available to both published and unpublished works.
Under the 1976 Copyright Act, the copyright owner has the exclusive right to reproduce, adapt, distribute, publicly perform, and publicly display the work. In the case of sound recordings, the copyright has the right to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission. These exclusive rights are freely transferable, and may be licensed, sold, donated to charity, or bequeathed to your heirs. It is illegal for anyone to violate any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner. If the copyright owner prevails in an infringement claim, the available remedies include preliminary and permanent injunctions (court orders to stop current or prevent future infringements), impounding, and destroying the infringing articles.
The exclusive rights of the copyright owner, however, are limited in a number of important ways. Under the "fair use" doctrine, which has long been part of U.S. copyright law and was expressly incorporated in the 1976 Copyright Act, a judge may excuse unauthorized uses that may otherwise be infringing. Section 107 of the Copyright Act lists criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research as examples of uses that may be eligible for the fair use defense. In other instances, the limitation takes the form of a "compulsory license" under which certain limited uses of copyrighted works are permitted upon payment of specified royalties and compliance with statutory conditions. The Copyright Act also contains a number of statutory limitations covering specific uses for educational, religious, and charitable purposes
Copyright is a form of protection provided by U.S. law to the authors of "original works of authorship" fixed in any tangible medium of expression. The manner and medium of fixation are virtually unlimited. Creative expression may be captured in words, numbers, notes, sounds, pictures, or any other graphic or symbolic media. The subject matter of copyright is extremely broad, including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, audiovisual, and architectural works. Copyright protection is available to both published and unpublished works.
Under the 1976 Copyright Act, the copyright owner has the exclusive right to reproduce, adapt, distribute, publicly perform, and publicly display the work. In the case of sound recordings, the copyright has the right to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission. These exclusive rights are freely transferable, and may be licensed, sold, donated to charity, or bequeathed to your heirs. It is illegal for anyone to violate any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner. If the copyright owner prevails in an infringement claim, the available remedies include preliminary and permanent injunctions (court orders to stop current or prevent future infringements), impounding, and destroying the infringing articles.
The exclusive rights of the copyright owner, however, are limited in a number of important ways. Under the "fair use" doctrine, which has long been part of U.S. copyright law and was expressly incorporated in the 1976 Copyright Act, a judge may excuse unauthorized uses that may otherwise be infringing. Section 107 of the Copyright Act lists criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research as examples of uses that may be eligible for the fair use defense. In other instances, the limitation takes the form of a "compulsory license" under which certain limited uses of copyrighted works are permitted upon payment of specified royalties and compliance with statutory conditions. The Copyright Act also contains a number of statutory limitations covering specific uses for educational, religious, and charitable purposes
Not to keep this going, but if what you say is correct Scott then since what I have designed is a speaker. Then anyone else can reproduce it for profit simply because it is a speaker. Not to mention, anyone out there is prone to having anything they design stolen legally for profit since it is legal to do so. NOT True. Copyright is designed specifically to protect individuals such as myself from having their tangible ideas and expressions thereof pirated by others.
Tom
Tom
Hi Harderror,
If you wish to protect intellectual ownership of a new manufacturable idea, as illustrated/described by some form of image or in writing and within a manufacturable product, you need a Patent.
If the idea is not new, and merely a development of something which has been published or sold before, then it cannot be Patent protected at all !!!
**Copyright protects against the 'copy' of intellectual creativity - writing, artwork, music etc. not physical inventions**
The copyrighting of any circuit diagram, or a construction diagram, means you can take to Court anyone who publically re-prints the same document without your permission, but be sure - anyone can use the information contained therein for manufacture if the 'novelty' is not also Patented, because it is not the circuit or the drawing itself they are selling, but a product.
(You do not see the Copyright symbol appearing on physical goods being sold unless there is some related circuit drawing or text etc. attached.)
Cheers ...... Graham.
If you wish to protect intellectual ownership of a new manufacturable idea, as illustrated/described by some form of image or in writing and within a manufacturable product, you need a Patent.
If the idea is not new, and merely a development of something which has been published or sold before, then it cannot be Patent protected at all !!!
**Copyright protects against the 'copy' of intellectual creativity - writing, artwork, music etc. not physical inventions**
The copyrighting of any circuit diagram, or a construction diagram, means you can take to Court anyone who publically re-prints the same document without your permission, but be sure - anyone can use the information contained therein for manufacture if the 'novelty' is not also Patented, because it is not the circuit or the drawing itself they are selling, but a product.
(You do not see the Copyright symbol appearing on physical goods being sold unless there is some related circuit drawing or text etc. attached.)
Cheers ...... Graham.
Graham Maynard said:
Maybe so. Besides, I make these designs for the DIY community to enjoy. That is my intent. I would hope that no slime balls would try using them for commercial gain. Have a good one!
Tom
Harderror said:
Unfortunately, I can tell you from personal experience that if there is a way to make money there will be multiple parties who try to profit from your work. There are some people who seem to have no moral compass and see nothing wrong with making money off of other people's work. I am not saying any regulars on the DIY forums will do this, typically it is somebody who does not post but lurks to find the ideas. You will be amazed where you find your work appearing and what claims are made as to the origin of it. Money changes everything for some people. That is my personal experience from more incidents then I can count over the past 5 to 10 years of DIY speaker designing and software distribution.
Hi Tom,
I do like the S.P.Q.R. name, and the simplicity of the cabinet.
You will always be remembered as being the originator of the design.
Maybe 'S.P.Q.R.' could be Registered for manufacturing, like Quad, Sony etc. so that copies cannot be sold as if genuine S.P.Q.R.
Cheers ........ Graham.
I do like the S.P.Q.R. name, and the simplicity of the cabinet.
You will always be remembered as being the originator of the design.
Maybe 'S.P.Q.R.' could be Registered for manufacturing, like Quad, Sony etc. so that copies cannot be sold as if genuine S.P.Q.R.
Cheers ........ Graham.
Harderror said:
I'll tell you what - I'll go through the base analysis of this particular example IF:
*THE MODERATORS* would kindly split off this discussion to a thread with the topic heading including the words "COPYRIGHT" and "PATENT", and also providing a link to that new thread here (so I can get to it 😀 ).
I think it might be worth while to you Tom and to others in the future, plus it should preserve your nice thread here for what it was no doubt originally intended for.😉
I agree, I think it would be a good thing to have a copyright discussion. People need to be aware of their rights. I will give the benefit of the doubt on this one as well. I may be entirely wrong about what I assumed. A seperate copyright discussion is a great idea! 🙂
Unfortunately I am going to have to take a week away from it though. I am going out of town. (Spring break) So the wife and I are going to the Outer Banks to do some relaxing (and of course I plan to do some fishing). I hope everyone is well and I will see all of you in a week!
Tom
Unfortunately I am going to have to take a week away from it though. I am going out of town. (Spring break) So the wife and I are going to the Outer Banks to do some relaxing (and of course I plan to do some fishing). I hope everyone is well and I will see all of you in a week!
Tom
MJK said:
It is an unfortunate situation we find ourselves in. (As a society that is). I love the idea of the honest hard working world but alas I fear that a good portion of this planet is not cut from that cloth.
That said, I really do hope my designs are of some help to the DIY community at least. I love designing speakers and thanks to you Martin, horns have become my passion.
As for the S.P.Q.R. name, I am in the middle of Trademark submission and approval just for the reason of holding on to the name. So, I am hopefully a step ahead on that one.
Tom
To add to what MJK said:
A copyright is only as good your as your ability to defend it. When you are a large company, Monster ans Bose come to mind, you can defend you copyrights and patents vigorously. When you are a little guy running the entire business yourself, you most likely cannot afford to defend yourself. Either the violator will not have enough attachable assets to cover court costs or the violator will be a big guy who will bankrupt you if you try to defend yourself.
I look at a copyright as I do locking my front door. It keeps the honest people out.
Bob
A copyright is only as good your as your ability to defend it. When you are a large company, Monster ans Bose come to mind, you can defend you copyrights and patents vigorously. When you are a little guy running the entire business yourself, you most likely cannot afford to defend yourself. Either the violator will not have enough attachable assets to cover court costs or the violator will be a big guy who will bankrupt you if you try to defend yourself.
I look at a copyright as I do locking my front door. It keeps the honest people out.
Bob
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