For 250 - 2 kHz we need a < ~1.5" VC, which the pioneers understood and modern guitar amp or similar MI 12" drivers have to this day. 😉
To be "spooked" by a cone driver, it has to go flat and clean out to 4k and reach down past 300. Phase has to be flat or at least linear in progression without abrupt changes. That means no discernable resonances or breakup in that described passband. You'll get some breakup and its a tradeoff between the high Qms and the breakup that IMO makes for a great midrange driver.
For me the B&C 8PE21 is a giant killer. Second place is the Eminence Beta 8A. The PRV 6MR500 is another great one for a 300-400 Hz on up application. It sounds effortless and dynamic with any type of music. I've messed with the Beta 12LTA and got some nice results with A TON of corrective crossover trickery, but it doesnt hold up to my heavy fisted hand on the volume knob. The Kappalite 3012HO is a great 12" driver. It won't quite reach that magical 4k mark, but with the right compression driver / WG and crossover work, it can disappear in a room and paint a pretty amazing 3d picture with live recordings.
For me the B&C 8PE21 is a giant killer. Second place is the Eminence Beta 8A. The PRV 6MR500 is another great one for a 300-400 Hz on up application. It sounds effortless and dynamic with any type of music. I've messed with the Beta 12LTA and got some nice results with A TON of corrective crossover trickery, but it doesnt hold up to my heavy fisted hand on the volume knob. The Kappalite 3012HO is a great 12" driver. It won't quite reach that magical 4k mark, but with the right compression driver / WG and crossover work, it can disappear in a room and paint a pretty amazing 3d picture with live recordings.
4K is likely not high enuff. Midrange starts at 160 Hz.
When i hear “Spooky” midrange my first choice of example is Alpir 7.3eN (or MAOP7).
dave
When i hear “Spooky” midrange my first choice of example is Alpir 7.3eN (or MAOP7).
dave
funny i built an OB for my 125" projection setup and use the 12LTA with phase plug for mid and treble (200-3k) with a 21" and two 15's for bass and a 1" compression driver with small horns for treble. Mids are really really good. Not quite 'magnetar" horn laded knock your socks off but spooky good. I listen to these more than the big horns now because it's a simple one amp system versus the penta-amped horns. Easier to turn on and off. lol Easy Peasy
Nice driver,8PE21 - I love it 100 t0 1K in a front horn. Eats all the 8s, 10's 12' 15's I've heard in that range. Closest I found is Fane Studio 10 which is pleasantly coloured and fun but not as transparent and realistic as the B&C.
I really can't decide if this thread is a homage to Edward Lear or written in some hip audio language I am not cool enough to understand but many of the posts do not parse. But I admire anyone who can work out how to design a speaker from the design brief 'spooky'.
It's not that difficult.
"Spooky" as in: "Spooky REAL".
A sound source that actually sounds like it's near you as opposed to being reproduced near you.
Odd example: Dog's often don't react to noises coming from speakers (well, above 100 Hz), but well recorded sounds on speakers that are "spooky" can often "set off" a dog (ears perked-up or even start them barking) with recorded noises from other animals or door bell noises. If your speaker doesn't do "spooky" then any given dog in-room probably won't react to those same sounds.
Dynamic contrast, clarity, and phase largely contribute to this.
"Magical" on the other hand encompasses that but add's to it (being overall a broader statement than "spooky"). It's harder to define that additional bit extra that you get from it - some of it just being slightly different tonally (with its resonances) and often some added soft compression at the very end of an otherwise very clear reproduced transient. I'd describe it as an additive effect - not strictly objectively neutral, though not in the sense of objective neutrality where that usually concerns how linear the response is at the listening position. "Magical" often results in reproduced sources seeming more present/3D.
"Spooky" as in: "Spooky REAL".
A sound source that actually sounds like it's near you as opposed to being reproduced near you.
Odd example: Dog's often don't react to noises coming from speakers (well, above 100 Hz), but well recorded sounds on speakers that are "spooky" can often "set off" a dog (ears perked-up or even start them barking) with recorded noises from other animals or door bell noises. If your speaker doesn't do "spooky" then any given dog in-room probably won't react to those same sounds.
Dynamic contrast, clarity, and phase largely contribute to this.
"Magical" on the other hand encompasses that but add's to it (being overall a broader statement than "spooky"). It's harder to define that additional bit extra that you get from it - some of it just being slightly different tonally (with its resonances) and often some added soft compression at the very end of an otherwise very clear reproduced transient. I'd describe it as an additive effect - not strictly objectively neutral, though not in the sense of objective neutrality where that usually concerns how linear the response is at the listening position. "Magical" often results in reproduced sources seeming more present/3D.
Once you've heard that sort of reproduction - it is pretty astounding! 🙂
..and can cause you to chase-after that result for (perhaps) the rest of your life. (..err, which may not be astounding in a good way.) 😱
..and can cause you to chase-after that result for (perhaps) the rest of your life. (..err, which may not be astounding in a good way.) 😱
No i was astounded by your post and just digging the hole deeper. There is such a wonderful paradigm clash going on here.
fwiw i know a 12” mid would sound awful in my house, but I’m enjoying the to and fro off people who’ve forgotten more about speaker design than I’ll ever know saying what one likes sounds rubbish to the other as they are probably both right
fwiw i know a 12” mid would sound awful in my house, but I’m enjoying the to and fro off people who’ve forgotten more about speaker design than I’ll ever know saying what one likes sounds rubbish to the other as they are probably both right
Definitely the Beta 12LTA 12 inch. Old version. As Pooh says, not the dynamics of a horn but much more like double stacked ESL57s. Which don't suck, BTW. 🙂
One of the best 8" I've heard is the Beta-8A. From about 250 Hz to 5 kHz it's clean, clean, clean. Very easy to crossover. Doesn't look like much, but it's a darn good midrange driver.
Ah thanks, I remember clearly a post before where you talked about that good listening experience you had to listen this system, knowing you usually has Altec and horn a la Vott.
My memory serves me bad those days... so a 12" it is.
I found a measurement on a german site, it is far to be a smooth driver, I mean even in the pre 1k5 hz area. And it is intriguing me as most of the time people are looking for very flat smooth drivers in that area.
Makes me wonder if the peaks and nulls when the post 1k5 is flatted, do not cope with something not neutral but pleasing for our ears...tottaly by luck regarding this driver (understand not wanted at the opposit of some modern driver a la Purifi that are flat in their usable bandwidth for illustration) ? Your ESL 57 ilustration was estonishing but I believe you...audio is bizarre and it is hard to understand all the interactions.
Do you remenber what was the source ? A good LP?
Edit, makes me think of what youknowyou member is saying about a 6" mid that has this same curve (but with less low end) with a step bump after 1k to 1k5 hz. It has to be flaten but is it presuming of a good transcient than seing such raw spl curve in a datasheet ? That's why I wondered.
My memory serves me bad those days... so a 12" it is.
I found a measurement on a german site, it is far to be a smooth driver, I mean even in the pre 1k5 hz area. And it is intriguing me as most of the time people are looking for very flat smooth drivers in that area.
Makes me wonder if the peaks and nulls when the post 1k5 is flatted, do not cope with something not neutral but pleasing for our ears...tottaly by luck regarding this driver (understand not wanted at the opposit of some modern driver a la Purifi that are flat in their usable bandwidth for illustration) ? Your ESL 57 ilustration was estonishing but I believe you...audio is bizarre and it is hard to understand all the interactions.
Do you remenber what was the source ? A good LP?
Edit, makes me think of what youknowyou member is saying about a 6" mid that has this same curve (but with less low end) with a step bump after 1k to 1k5 hz. It has to be flaten but is it presuming of a good transcient than seing such raw spl curve in a datasheet ? That's why I wondered.
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Yes we know that a 12" is usable till to 800 hz in theory when looking off axis, however some have full range profils with double cones for instance or at least have high frequency flatish response on axis(faital 12PR320 too much expensive today) But for sure 5 khz seems not feasable but for a 3" .
Probably beaming badly, but it did not seem to matter in the system I heard. I would be super happy with those speakers.
I also admired the system that used the Beta-8A as a mid. Just so clean and neutral.
I also admired the system that used the Beta-8A as a mid. Just so clean and neutral.
ime and imho, speakers that sounded the best needed to have a favourable polar response (a uniform off axis response)
it will determined how the speakers project imaging convincingly where it will have the best space rendition between instruments and vocals, especially in non treated room.
Sure, of course. But there are times when you hear a speaker and it really surprises you. The Beta LTA as midrange was that way. I did not expect that goofy looking 12" cone and whizzer to sound that clean, that light, that natural. It immediately reminded me of the Quad ESL panels. Speakers will astonish you sometimes. 😉