Hi,
I've got a R&S UPD (1030.7500.05) Audio Analyzer in excellent physical shape and apparently complete with one exception: the internal hard drive is missing.
It powers up, and the BIOS boots up. Memory test is ok, but that's as far as it'll go without the hard drive.
I'd like to get this thing up and running again, but am having some trouble locating the info I need. HD type/size, OS files, System files, operating & service manuals, other repair info etc.
Can anyone out there point me in the right direction?
I can find almost NO info on the web regarding the R&S UPD (blog entries, manuals, repair info, tips, tricks etc.)
Given the UPD's capabilities, I'm very curious why there's such an apparent absence of info & interest re this tool, including here at DIYAudio.
Any helpful comments will be very much appreciated.
Cheers!
I've got a R&S UPD (1030.7500.05) Audio Analyzer in excellent physical shape and apparently complete with one exception: the internal hard drive is missing.
It powers up, and the BIOS boots up. Memory test is ok, but that's as far as it'll go without the hard drive.
I'd like to get this thing up and running again, but am having some trouble locating the info I need. HD type/size, OS files, System files, operating & service manuals, other repair info etc.
Can anyone out there point me in the right direction?
I can find almost NO info on the web regarding the R&S UPD (blog entries, manuals, repair info, tips, tricks etc.)
Given the UPD's capabilities, I'm very curious why there's such an apparent absence of info & interest re this tool, including here at DIYAudio.
Any helpful comments will be very much appreciated.
Cheers!
I would suggest contacting them directly, they have always been very helpful to us.
http://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/Rohde-Schwarz-UPD-Datasheet.pdf
http://exodus.poly.edu/~kurt/manuals/manuals/Other/R&S UPD Operating.pdf
Arh - so it was you bought the unit from Ebay 🙂 I had been watching it but it does not have the SPDIF digital I/O's and I suspect also not the low distortion Gen option (but I cannot be sure about this).
As it so happens I have one completely stripped on the bench due to needing to be recapped (PSU and on the Analogue input board) - and the caps just arrived today.
I can make a HDD drive image for you - but my unit has the second high-speed DSP, SPDIF Digital I/O & Low distortion Gen so I'm not sure what your unit will make of these boards (options) "Missing". Also each unit has its own calibration data - it would be good if you can atleast recover these files from your units HDD.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/upd-12e3.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/UPD_Maintenance_Troubleshooting.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/bupd310e.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/UPD Service Manual.PDF
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/Upd_310.exe
There is a good chance that all thats wrong is your Motherboards CMOS battery has failed (its Velcro'ed to the rear panel - you can pop the top open of the black plastic battery holder and solder in a new 3.6V lithium battery)- these only last a few years - so go into the Motherboards Bios CMOS settings and select Auto detect HDD (Drive C) and your Drive might be good 🙂
Otherwise you need a new HDD drive (say 250MB) formatted with DOS 6.22 then install the software - its not easy as there are many sub-folders and config files etc. (I worry about your units calibration data if your drive is dead) It might be easier if I send you a Drive image of my unit - although it would take me sometime to create it... and time is very much my worst enemy....
BTW - the UPD is far superior to the AP's IMO... but then for better or worst the AP's are the industry standard. If you have no luck with your unit then I'd swap for a loaded AP1 if your where interested...
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Thanks, Rayma & JohnW. Great stuff. Very helpful!
JohnW,
I need to digest the info you sent. I'll get back to you. THANKS!
Note that in my UPD, the HD is actually physically missing (I looked ;-)
Mine also DOES include the SPDIF/TOSlink and other digital inputs but it does NOT include the AES/EBU option or Low-Distortion Generator option (Options UPD-B2 & UPD-B1 respectively)
THANKS again! I really appreciate the speedy replies, guys!
JohnW,
I need to digest the info you sent. I'll get back to you. THANKS!
Note that in my UPD, the HD is actually physically missing (I looked ;-)
Mine also DOES include the SPDIF/TOSlink and other digital inputs but it does NOT include the AES/EBU option or Low-Distortion Generator option (Options UPD-B2 & UPD-B1 respectively)
THANKS again! I really appreciate the speedy replies, guys!
Cofferyjj
Without the AES/EBU option the SPDIF/TOSlink connectors on the front panel will not function 🙁 and without the Low Distortion Gen option you have neither SPDIF or Low distortion Analogue Gen outputs so it was the reason I did not go for the unit...
However the FFT analysers is very useful and if you have the time then its possible to design a SPDIF I/O card that connects to the rear panel Digital I/O connectors (maybe even via the front panel 15W D - I'm not sure if these are connected without the AES/EBU card, I'll look at my unit when I put it all back together) - this then can support upto 768KHz digital I/O!
I have a second UPD in the lab but without the second channel high speed I/O so making a HDD copy of this unit might be more relevant to your unit* - I upgraded my units with a 128MB DOM, I could copy the software onto one of these then it would simply pop directly into your units IDE card (you have to move the IDE card over one AT BUS slot position - "reserved" for the GPIB card to allow space for the 128MB DOM to stick out of the IDE connector).....
PQI 128MB IDE 40 Pin Dom Disk on Module SSD Flash DJ0128M22RF0 Neu Inkl MWST | eBay
I just worry about finding the time as the units are DOS based and its not a barrel of laughs to copy the drives - being so old they are not supported by modern day IDE duplicators / IDE to USB interfaces..... so everything has to be copied by hand, a horrid horrid task...
EDIT:- *I've just realised that my other UPD has the Jitter analysers option so this might not make the best "Software" clone donor unit.
Without the AES/EBU option the SPDIF/TOSlink connectors on the front panel will not function 🙁 and without the Low Distortion Gen option you have neither SPDIF or Low distortion Analogue Gen outputs so it was the reason I did not go for the unit...
However the FFT analysers is very useful and if you have the time then its possible to design a SPDIF I/O card that connects to the rear panel Digital I/O connectors (maybe even via the front panel 15W D - I'm not sure if these are connected without the AES/EBU card, I'll look at my unit when I put it all back together) - this then can support upto 768KHz digital I/O!
I have a second UPD in the lab but without the second channel high speed I/O so making a HDD copy of this unit might be more relevant to your unit* - I upgraded my units with a 128MB DOM, I could copy the software onto one of these then it would simply pop directly into your units IDE card (you have to move the IDE card over one AT BUS slot position - "reserved" for the GPIB card to allow space for the 128MB DOM to stick out of the IDE connector).....
PQI 128MB IDE 40 Pin Dom Disk on Module SSD Flash DJ0128M22RF0 Neu Inkl MWST | eBay
I just worry about finding the time as the units are DOS based and its not a barrel of laughs to copy the drives - being so old they are not supported by modern day IDE duplicators / IDE to USB interfaces..... so everything has to be copied by hand, a horrid horrid task...
EDIT:- *I've just realised that my other UPD has the Jitter analysers option so this might not make the best "Software" clone donor unit.
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I was wondering about upgrading for these UPDs.
Anyone know where spares might be for the following:
AES/EBU-SPDIF UPD-B2 1030.2001.02
High Speed Option UPD-B3 1030.2301.02
Isn't Jitter included with the B3 option?
What is the funny looking connector on the rear monitor port?
The old DOS version, floppy drive. It seems like these could be
upgraded from a 286 processor to the 386 processor.
Not sure about the RAM...
I had another opinion that the HDD could only be 2 MEG.
I'm not sure if the guy was confused about RAM?
Anyone using a Keyboard with theirs?
Com2 Assume this is the mouse port, port above DIN?
Is there a method of using a com/serial port to USB converter?
Can a regular computer be configured to talk to the UPD?
There was another UPD that went for parts and wasn't working
that was fully optioned....Last week or the week before?
John, thank you for posting the files as I've been searching for
the un available service manual.
As these units are long past the factory service life John can
you document your work with pics etc? I'm sure there are
other DIYers out here that would benefit from it.
Circuit Diagrams anyone?
Cheers,
Sync
Anyone know where spares might be for the following:
AES/EBU-SPDIF UPD-B2 1030.2001.02
High Speed Option UPD-B3 1030.2301.02
Isn't Jitter included with the B3 option?
What is the funny looking connector on the rear monitor port?
The old DOS version, floppy drive. It seems like these could be
upgraded from a 286 processor to the 386 processor.
Not sure about the RAM...
I had another opinion that the HDD could only be 2 MEG.
I'm not sure if the guy was confused about RAM?
Anyone using a Keyboard with theirs?
Com2 Assume this is the mouse port, port above DIN?
Is there a method of using a com/serial port to USB converter?
Can a regular computer be configured to talk to the UPD?
There was another UPD that went for parts and wasn't working
that was fully optioned....Last week or the week before?
John, thank you for posting the files as I've been searching for
the un available service manual.
As these units are long past the factory service life John can
you document your work with pics etc? I'm sure there are
other DIYers out here that would benefit from it.
Circuit Diagrams anyone?
Cheers,
Sync
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Not a chance in the world to source these, only from scrapped units - the UPD was seriously expensive for its time - its why they did not sell many.
No the Jitter is a later option - does not work well on my machines for some reason - I'm not sure if they fully debugged the software or something is not well with my units.
I seem to recall that early units had a termination connector on the rear VGA output - if this is what you are referring too?
The PC side of the UPD 05 is based on a 486 DX75 AT motherboard with the DSP's on cards on the AT BUS - the best you can push it to is a DX4 100MHz - but the unit is plenty fast not like todays stupidly power hungry computers / operating systems.
16MB RAM - 1M (640kb) for the standard DOS memory.
Normally the hard disk is 250MB or so on later units - you only need 4MB at max - just recall this unit was from the days when programs where well written!
Yes, I use a old IBM AT 5W large DIN (not the later MiniDin) keyboard for file naming etc.
The usual GPIB port if you have the card installed.
The UPD is getting on now - despite how well they perform they need tender loving care so I'd not really recommend one to someone unless they have a spares unit to help keep it going / help fault find by PCB swapping to narrow down the issue etc. know how to still work with MSDOS & old 486 AT Motherboards etc.
Spare parts / support is now pretty much unobtainium and what few parts are still available from R&S they are CRAZY expensive sadly = basically scrap time 🙁
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JohnW,
I obtained a copy of MSDOS 6.22 from MS-DOS Boot Disk Download | AllBootDisks - Providing Free Boot Disk Downloads. MS-DOS to Windows XP.
(both boot disk & disk image is available)
The file Upd_310.exe that you attached above appears to be a self-expanding archive of the two UPD v3.10 (latest version) system disks that came with the UPD: DISK 1 - UPD System, and DISK 2 - the setup EXAMPLES disk that R&S began including in the v3.10 package.
I have an empty 250MB Conner CP30254 HD, shown in Section 7.6.10 in the UPD service manual you linked above, that should be in good shape to use in the UPD. (I also ordered a couple of the DOMs - Disk on Modules) you mentioned just for the hell of it)---CHEAP!
So, if I understand the UPD manuals correctly, I should be able to do the following:
- Install the Conner CP30254 (or 128MB DOM)
- Set up the BIOS parameters, THEN assuming the HD is recognized...
- Boot from the MSDOS v6.22 floppy disk
- Format & partition the HD per the UPD service manual.
- Install MSDOS on the HD via the floppy
- Install the UPD system files on the HD via the floppy
- continue down the road to debugging this old unit.
Is this hair-brained plan missing something?
Thanks again! I'd be dead in the water without your helpful responses.
If anyone can identify a source for the UPD-B1 (low-dist gen) and UPD-B2 (AES/BES) options please drop a line here.
Also,
I am MISSING the HD mounting bracket. I can easily fabricate something, but since you may be using a DOM HD and may not need the HD bracket, if you're willing to sell the actual R&S bracket, I'll pay top dollar for it (say $20 or so ;-).
Cheers!
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/Upd_310.exe
I obtained a copy of MSDOS 6.22 from MS-DOS Boot Disk Download | AllBootDisks - Providing Free Boot Disk Downloads. MS-DOS to Windows XP.
(both boot disk & disk image is available)
The file Upd_310.exe that you attached above appears to be a self-expanding archive of the two UPD v3.10 (latest version) system disks that came with the UPD: DISK 1 - UPD System, and DISK 2 - the setup EXAMPLES disk that R&S began including in the v3.10 package.
I have an empty 250MB Conner CP30254 HD, shown in Section 7.6.10 in the UPD service manual you linked above, that should be in good shape to use in the UPD. (I also ordered a couple of the DOMs - Disk on Modules) you mentioned just for the hell of it)---CHEAP!
So, if I understand the UPD manuals correctly, I should be able to do the following:
- Install the Conner CP30254 (or 128MB DOM)
- Set up the BIOS parameters, THEN assuming the HD is recognized...
- Boot from the MSDOS v6.22 floppy disk
- Format & partition the HD per the UPD service manual.
- Install MSDOS on the HD via the floppy
- Install the UPD system files on the HD via the floppy
- continue down the road to debugging this old unit.
Is this hair-brained plan missing something?
Thanks again! I'd be dead in the water without your helpful responses.
If anyone can identify a source for the UPD-B1 (low-dist gen) and UPD-B2 (AES/BES) options please drop a line here.
Also,
I am MISSING the HD mounting bracket. I can easily fabricate something, but since you may be using a DOM HD and may not need the HD bracket, if you're willing to sell the actual R&S bracket, I'll pay top dollar for it (say $20 or so ;-).
Cheers!
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/Upd_310.exe
I hope that installing the software does a "complete" system install - I'm not certain as I've never had to install a new drive - I only copied files between drives.
I hope the "fresh install" installs the required autoexec.bat, config.sys & USERKEYB.BAT etc...
Nothing unsolvable 🙂 - you will just need to play around a little and I always have files here if you get stuck.
The Readme file on Disk 1 has information under "4. Used directories"
But I'm slightly concerned about the line "It is not recommended to change any file of the original installation." which tends to suggest that its not a complete fresh install as I suspect you might need the original calibration data files 🙁
These are the files of most concern:-
*.CAL: these files contain the calibration information of the UPD. Do not change or delete any of these files.
*.TOL: these files contain the limits for calibration. Do not change or delete any of these files.
Good luck and please let us know how you get on 🙂
If you use the DOM then you don't need the HDD mounting bracket - I'd rather not sell my own as I keep the drive unconnected within the units just incase the DOM SSD gets corrupted or some such.
I hope the "fresh install" installs the required autoexec.bat, config.sys & USERKEYB.BAT etc...
Nothing unsolvable 🙂 - you will just need to play around a little and I always have files here if you get stuck.
The Readme file on Disk 1 has information under "4. Used directories"
But I'm slightly concerned about the line "It is not recommended to change any file of the original installation." which tends to suggest that its not a complete fresh install as I suspect you might need the original calibration data files 🙁
These are the files of most concern:-
*.CAL: these files contain the calibration information of the UPD. Do not change or delete any of these files.
*.TOL: these files contain the limits for calibration. Do not change or delete any of these files.
Good luck and please let us know how you get on 🙂
If you use the DOM then you don't need the HDD mounting bracket - I'd rather not sell my own as I keep the drive unconnected within the units just incase the DOM SSD gets corrupted or some such.
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Thanks again, JohnW.
Always very helpful tips.
I will indeed drop you line here when I have some progress (or not) to report.
Cheers!
Always very helpful tips.
I will indeed drop you line here when I have some progress (or not) to report.
Cheers!
Hi, again. I have some progress to report---IT IS ALIVE.
And it seems to be working just fine. Self-test is OK, and all generators, all analyzers, all functions seem to be working GREAT. I'm still wringing it out, but I haven't found a single operational or calibration issue so far.
I'll reply in a day or so with more details re getting it running again. There were a few minor gotcha's (mainly due to my foggy memory of MSDOS behavior), but nothing major.
The .CAL files were actually not an issue since the only one that is not installed with the system installation is the ANLR0.CAL file. If this file is missing, it turns out that the UPD will recreate the ANLR0.CAL file in CMOS after a cal attempt, THEN the next time you boot up, the UPD will ask if you want to restore the CAL from CMOS. When you do that, the UPD simply writes a new ANLR0.CAL file to the HD and you're are DONE.
I'm still puzzled by the *.TOL file. I can't find it, but the UPD doesn't seem to notice it, and the UPD 05 manual doesn't mention it at all. Not sure what to make of this, but it's running just fine with no boot or self-test errors of any kind.
Thanks again, JohnW. This little project would have gone NOWHERE without your help. Again, BIG THANKS!
And it seems to be working just fine. Self-test is OK, and all generators, all analyzers, all functions seem to be working GREAT. I'm still wringing it out, but I haven't found a single operational or calibration issue so far.
I'll reply in a day or so with more details re getting it running again. There were a few minor gotcha's (mainly due to my foggy memory of MSDOS behavior), but nothing major.
The .CAL files were actually not an issue since the only one that is not installed with the system installation is the ANLR0.CAL file. If this file is missing, it turns out that the UPD will recreate the ANLR0.CAL file in CMOS after a cal attempt, THEN the next time you boot up, the UPD will ask if you want to restore the CAL from CMOS. When you do that, the UPD simply writes a new ANLR0.CAL file to the HD and you're are DONE.
I'm still puzzled by the *.TOL file. I can't find it, but the UPD doesn't seem to notice it, and the UPD 05 manual doesn't mention it at all. Not sure what to make of this, but it's running just fine with no boot or self-test errors of any kind.
Thanks again, JohnW. This little project would have gone NOWHERE without your help. Again, BIG THANKS!
Does anyone have an effective way to make a backup image of the internal HDD on the UPL? I just picked up one, damaged in shipping, and one of the concerns is that the HDD may go tits up any time. Need to make a backup copy of everything, but some of the EXE files are larger than the floppy drive capacity. Suggestions?
I was thinking in terms of mass storage connection.. there seem to be no spare HDD ports to connect a second drive. The prospect of backing up to multiple floppies is one I'd like to avoid.
Pull the drive and use a pc. What interface on it? I would replace it with an ssd. I did that recently on a Tek DSA8200 and it runs faster as well.
Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk
Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk
I suspect that it is an IDE interface. I guess there's no choice but to risk it and pull the drive in order to make a backup copy.
On this vintage computer based stuff you really have little choice. You should make a backup. If its IDE and you can use a DOM there are PC adapters available. It gets a little murky. I use https://selfimage.en.softonic.com/ for tasks like this. You need to be careful you don't go the wrong way but it can copy pretty much anything on a disk; DOS, Windows Linux flavors and other stuff. I would suggest a motherboard update but some of this stuff is very motherboard specific meaning any failure and its toast. Same with the DSA8200 ($31K in 2006, not supported any more). Get a spare MB. May need some extensive ebay searching.
From what I can tell, the motherboard is proprietary. It uses a Winchip C6 processor. It has no expansion slots as far as I can tell (difficult because it's mounted upside down).
I have some older IDE USB drive enclosures that I can probably use.
Agreed. Instruments like this are an expensive gamble. One failure and it's time to ebay and shop around again.
I have some older IDE USB drive enclosures that I can probably use.
Agreed. Instruments like this are an expensive gamble. One failure and it's time to ebay and shop around again.
I agree that many instruments with operating software on hard drives are somewhat of a gamble to buy when they are out of manufacturer support.
The UPL isn't as bad as some others because you can put in a replacement drive, format it and install standard MS-DOS and then install the UPL software itself which fits on just two floppies.
The UPL isn't as bad as some others because you can put in a replacement drive, format it and install standard MS-DOS and then install the UPL software itself which fits on just two floppies.
Yes, overall, it's not too bad. But the UPL software cannot be obtained anywhere, so should the HDD fail without a backup, the only option is to pay an enormous amount of money to have R&S calibrate it and repair it. $3,970 is their quote. They refuse to provide their software to customers directly due to licensing issues.
It's a really great piece of gear, but there are many things that can go wrong, and those 30 or so relays under the unit are a concern. Should one of them become a little flaky, it would be a nightmare to track it down.
It's a really great piece of gear, but there are many things that can go wrong, and those 30 or so relays under the unit are a concern. Should one of them become a little flaky, it would be a nightmare to track it down.