I was reviewing the tweeter choices of some high end companies like Krell, Audio Physik and Sonus Faber because they all advertise the use of a ringradiator tweeter. Given the multi-megabuck prices of their units, I was assuming that they are using versions of the ScanSpeak 2904/700000. Wrong! Apparently they use the Vifa XT25TG30-04, which is not bad, I guess, but... a $45 driver in enclosures sold for $4k-$37k(!!!) a pair? WTF? Not even a "regular" Revelator or Esotar? How much is their markup?
Of course, they all say it's "customized". But how far can that customization go? 'cause if I look here the difference between the Vifa and the 930000 below appears to be pretty big. I strongly suspect they are only being cheap, and they actually go for <$100 units, (maybe even the generic, $50 ones) otherwise why not get the "good stuff" right from the beginning? And if they really need customization, I'm sure the manufacturer could accomodate a bigger batch of say 970000 at the same price.
To put it another way, is there a good reason for using that driver other than saving $$?
Did any of you have a chance to take one of these apart and see what the "customized" units are all about?
Ideas, comments? Am I missing something?
Of course, they all say it's "customized". But how far can that customization go? 'cause if I look here the difference between the Vifa and the 930000 below appears to be pretty big. I strongly suspect they are only being cheap, and they actually go for <$100 units, (maybe even the generic, $50 ones) otherwise why not get the "good stuff" right from the beginning? And if they really need customization, I'm sure the manufacturer could accomodate a bigger batch of say 970000 at the same price.
To put it another way, is there a good reason for using that driver other than saving $$?
Did any of you have a chance to take one of these apart and see what the "customized" units are all about?
Ideas, comments? Am I missing something?
Maybe it sounds real good. A good reason to include it in your next speaker design. But I think it might be tricky to get right regarding crossovers, other drivers, etc. Lots of DIY folks think that by buying expensive drivers they will automatically get good speakers. Not true as you may have picked up around here.
I'm sure it sounds good. But that's not the issue. Look at the link - the 930000 is considerably "cleaner". If they ask premium prices, shouldn't they use premium parts? Or can the regular Vifa be tweaked for less distorsion, to match the 9xxxxx, for example?
Member
Joined 2002
Just because it costed a lot of money doesn't mean it is good.
people have said to me you can take a cheap radio shack ( my favorite the polly prop 6.5" ) and build a awesome sounding set of speakers. witch costed less. then you can go buy a pair that cost's 2 grand and well they sound like crap compared. some times it is even the person he may decide that he likes his cheap speakers compare to a hi end pair. My friend like the sound that came from his 15$ alarm clock radio better than a full sized stereo. : O )
BUT i pity the person who pays 10g's for a [air of them POS nuance ones. THEY SUCK.. from top to bottom
people have said to me you can take a cheap radio shack ( my favorite the polly prop 6.5" ) and build a awesome sounding set of speakers. witch costed less. then you can go buy a pair that cost's 2 grand and well they sound like crap compared. some times it is even the person he may decide that he likes his cheap speakers compare to a hi end pair. My friend like the sound that came from his 15$ alarm clock radio better than a full sized stereo. : O )
BUT i pity the person who pays 10g's for a [air of them POS nuance ones. THEY SUCK.. from top to bottom
1. the selling price of a loudspeaker, amplifier, car, printing press, laptop etc... is not dictated by only the cost of the raw materials in fact raw materials are a fraction of the cost just ask the Coca-Cola Company. raw materials in the audio world are about 7-10% of the selling price. this is a lot better than coke where raw materials are about 1-2% of the selling price but not as good as automobiles where it is as high as 20-30%. these percentages depend on a lot of factors (target audinece, volumes, price of goods, emand and supply equations, etc...). i once took apart a bose 301 (circa 1985) and found the raw materials could be obtained (retail) for about $50 (incl cabinets and XO) for a speaker that retailed for $300. Bose would ofcourse been able to obtain the raw materials for less we can safely assume $30.
2. the ring radiator used by any speaker manufacturer is usually modified by the driver manufacturer (vifa etc...) as it allows the speaker manufacterer to do what they know best and only the driver manufacter knows it's driver best. so usually sonus faber would ask vifa to modify the unit to do a ba or c like they mght ask vifa to take the ring radiator and change the impedance curve, resonant freq., etc.... these mods can be from adding ro removing damping materials behid the tweeter, adding a copper ring or plastic lens to correct phase anomalies etc...
2. the ring radiator used by any speaker manufacturer is usually modified by the driver manufacturer (vifa etc...) as it allows the speaker manufacterer to do what they know best and only the driver manufacter knows it's driver best. so usually sonus faber would ask vifa to modify the unit to do a ba or c like they mght ask vifa to take the ring radiator and change the impedance curve, resonant freq., etc.... these mods can be from adding ro removing damping materials behid the tweeter, adding a copper ring or plastic lens to correct phase anomalies etc...
I am just guessing that the tweeter might be a similar situation to midrange drivers with rigid cones such as the Seas metal cones.
The Seas have a huge resonance at a certain point, that cheaper, paper cone drivers don't have. The speaker builder has to know how to add a filter to get rid of that resonance, and when he does, they sound great. A lot of DIY people prefer paper cone mids because they inherently sound good and don't require as much measuring and fiddling to get right. If you don't know what you are doing, the Seas can sound a lot worse that a cheaper driver.
Now, about that link. That guy is showing just one thing that you can measure about a tweeter. How about a waterfall plot showing if it rings on after a pulse? How is it's frequency response curve? How about a bunch of other stuff I don't know about? It is a marketing trick to show you the stat that the product excels at and "forget" to show you other stats that might be equally important or more important. (of course the site isn't doing this on purpose)
These are just thoughts- I'm no expert, but I'm starting to catch on after being a DIY Audio member for a while........
The Seas have a huge resonance at a certain point, that cheaper, paper cone drivers don't have. The speaker builder has to know how to add a filter to get rid of that resonance, and when he does, they sound great. A lot of DIY people prefer paper cone mids because they inherently sound good and don't require as much measuring and fiddling to get right. If you don't know what you are doing, the Seas can sound a lot worse that a cheaper driver.
Now, about that link. That guy is showing just one thing that you can measure about a tweeter. How about a waterfall plot showing if it rings on after a pulse? How is it's frequency response curve? How about a bunch of other stuff I don't know about? It is a marketing trick to show you the stat that the product excels at and "forget" to show you other stats that might be equally important or more important. (of course the site isn't doing this on purpose)
These are just thoughts- I'm no expert, but I'm starting to catch on after being a DIY Audio member for a while........
First: the Vifa ringradiator is quite a long time on the market now, when the speakers you mentioned were build it was the only ringradiator to use and it costed much more.
Second: Maybe these companies use in their design other drivers which accompany the vifa very well, it's all about the best match you can make. Not to slam the most expensive drivers in a box.
Third: The sound of the driver,or the subjective performance.
Personally I find the 93000 quite restrained sounding (as with a blanket for the tweeter) compared with the XT25.
Second: Maybe these companies use in their design other drivers which accompany the vifa very well, it's all about the best match you can make. Not to slam the most expensive drivers in a box.
Third: The sound of the driver,or the subjective performance.
Personally I find the 93000 quite restrained sounding (as with a blanket for the tweeter) compared with the XT25.
Clueless said:
As with a lot of things what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily end up being good in reality, as others have said, it's what it sounds like that counts 🙂
I'm a strong believer in "You get what you pay for" but there are always exceptions to any rule!
I haven't heard either tweeter by the way 🙂
Regards,
Tony.
It's a very interesting question. The Vifa XT25 and the Scan-Speak 7000 are made by the same company.
Depending on your degree of paranoia and cynicism, you would assume that Krell could choose either for their speakers and the cost wouldn't change that much, for a $20K speaker.
So either Krell thinks the 7000 is a rip-off, or they are cheap and think no-one can hear the difference.
Cheers
Steve
Depending on your degree of paranoia and cynicism, you would assume that Krell could choose either for their speakers and the cost wouldn't change that much, for a $20K speaker.
So either Krell thinks the 7000 is a rip-off, or they are cheap and think no-one can hear the difference.
Cheers
Steve
Let me just say that I'm aware of the fact that the engineer who knows how to make a great sounding speaker out of lesser quality parts is better than the one who makes a good speaker out of the best parts. This is why the final price also includes the "know-how". But still... obviously ScanSpeak thinks the 700000 is better, otherwise why bother to make 2 units and the huge price difference?
Variac: some more info is here (courtesy of DIYAudio member Keith Kidder).
At least on paper some 9XXXX look better.
Navin: I knew about those kind of modifications. But the initial issue remains the same: price and quality of the "standard" drivers. Why not choose a better "out of the box" unit and tweak/customize it from there? All things being equal, the final result should be better for the more expensive unit, and for such prices, I think the buyers are entitled (and expect) to get the best components. They pay for SOTA, shouldn't they get SOTA?
As the saying goes, if you want something done right, do it yourself. One more reason to DIY. 😀
The Vifa is relatively new and "cutting-edge" but it looks to me like it's a "scaled-down" version of the 700000 in most aspects.
Like I said, I may be missing something, but this is exactly why I started this thread.
Variac: some more info is here (courtesy of DIYAudio member Keith Kidder).
At least on paper some 9XXXX look better.
Navin: I knew about those kind of modifications. But the initial issue remains the same: price and quality of the "standard" drivers. Why not choose a better "out of the box" unit and tweak/customize it from there? All things being equal, the final result should be better for the more expensive unit, and for such prices, I think the buyers are entitled (and expect) to get the best components. They pay for SOTA, shouldn't they get SOTA?
As the saying goes, if you want something done right, do it yourself. One more reason to DIY. 😀
The Vifa is relatively new and "cutting-edge" but it looks to me like it's a "scaled-down" version of the 700000 in most aspects.
Like I said, I may be missing something, but this is exactly why I started this thread.
I'm surprised a lot of DIY people here supporting the stupid prices of commercial speakers here. A $40K speaker with a $50 tweeter is called a RIPP OFF! They are for those who don't know what is behind these designs. You cannot make even a good $50 tweeter sound better than a SS 9900 or Raven R1 or others with a reasonable crossover. I've tried lots of cheap tweeters and good expensive ones, and the more expensive are usually allways much better even if you have to put more work into it. I've heard xt25s in Sonus Faber Cremonas, well done but the lack of driver quality shows up compared to others.
The xt25 is very popular in $1000 and $40K speakers so what does this tell you. One reason is because its suitable to higher frequency well above the usual 20khz and its cheap for HT and hi-rez use etc.
The reviews on the Krell speaker is very average anyway.
The xt25 is very popular in $1000 and $40K speakers so what does this tell you. One reason is because its suitable to higher frequency well above the usual 20khz and its cheap for HT and hi-rez use etc.
The reviews on the Krell speaker is very average anyway.
Modified Drivers
A small story on the modifiation of tweeters. Back in 1989 I was designing a small monitor type loudspeaker using a Pair of drivers from dynaudio, 15W75 and a D28 version 2. It was at the same time totem was going their first box. I talked with their supplier(Solen) and found that they were using a " highly modified seas tweeter " to quote the tech at Solen. I asked if it was worth all the extra work on it. His answer was that take a cheap peeky driver and modify the hell out of it and you end up with a decent driver that costs almost as much as a good one in the first place. Sage advice. Price is not always a determining factor of quality but there are times were price is warranted.
Mark
A small story on the modifiation of tweeters. Back in 1989 I was designing a small monitor type loudspeaker using a Pair of drivers from dynaudio, 15W75 and a D28 version 2. It was at the same time totem was going their first box. I talked with their supplier(Solen) and found that they were using a " highly modified seas tweeter " to quote the tech at Solen. I asked if it was worth all the extra work on it. His answer was that take a cheap peeky driver and modify the hell out of it and you end up with a decent driver that costs almost as much as a good one in the first place. Sage advice. Price is not always a determining factor of quality but there are times were price is warranted.
Mark
sfdoddsy said:
Market segmentation??? I can remember when I was a kid we went to a fruit cannery. All these unlabled cans were going along a conveyer belt, they then came to a Y junction the ones that went left got one brand label and the ones that went right got another brand label. If you checked the price in the supermarket one was significantly higher than the other, ever though they were identical (apart from the label).
Obviously manufacturers beleive that people will buy the more expensive product thinking that it must be better, so maybe Krell churn out a super expensive speaker that costs them next to nothing to build, knowing that some people will simply buy it because the more expensive it is the beter it obviously must be. Targeting the more money than sense market.
Of course pure speculation on my part (Cover *** mode) 🙂
Regards,
Tony.
Tony, if true, it wouldn't be the first time. There was a high-end company in Colorado that sold an ultra-expensive speaker based on the relatively cheap Carver ribbon. To your fruit example, I can certainly testify that I've seen the same thing in the wine business. And what's more, I've seen consumers in non-blind tests invariably choose the more expensive, prestigious brand as clearly tasting better.
Al.M said:
having not heard the $40K speaker or even any $4K speakers what i say below should not be taken too seriously. however if anyone thinks that they can make a business of making speakers should try it and see. all busniess have pitfalls and one can well assume that sellig $40K speakers is a frightfully diffcult job catering to a very small market.
how many speakers do you think are sold in the $40K price point per year? 10, 20, 100, 1000?
yes one would expect that a $40K spekaer would use nothng but the best raw materials there are a number of reasons (other than rip off) why a manufactuer would use a lesser driver esp when the raw material cost is such a small part of teh selling price. If Krell or whoever used a $200 tweeter instead of a $50 tweeter in their $40K speaker it would make a difference to teh selling price. They know that. We know that. It would ot makea significant differnce to their balance sheet either. so the rip off argument i think is not valid here. my guess is that the designer they hired was comfortable using the XT25 instead of the 70000. often designers design speakers for different manufactuers and it isthen up to the manufacturer to market the design as hey see fit.
if the designer had already used the XT25 before (even if it was cheaper speaker) and was comfortable with it and know who to solve it's anomalies he/she may have continued to use the XT25 when he/she was hired to design a speaker for krell. now dont shoot the desinger. you dont know what he/she was paid for teh design.
i am a firm beliver that most businesses survive because of a inherent honesty of it's mangement, engineers, etc... ripoffs dont last too long and krell et. al. have been in business for a while now.
most of these companies are privately held so their balace sheets are not privy to public eyes yet i also believe that the audio business is not easy. if it was that easy everyone and their mother would be in it.
I don't think the 7000 and the XT25 are the same beast with different labeling.
I'm in the position that I've heard the SS 29047000. (local DIY speaker building shop) And yes it betters the XT25 with ease (for the price is should be!) And in my experience it's the best I've ever heard. It's natural sounding nothing less nothing more. No artificial violin or piano. Is it worth every penny? I think so....but if you are paying >€450/each you should look for a cheaper shop 🙂
I'm in the position that I've heard the SS 29047000. (local DIY speaker building shop) And yes it betters the XT25 with ease (for the price is should be!) And in my experience it's the best I've ever heard. It's natural sounding nothing less nothing more. No artificial violin or piano. Is it worth every penny? I think so....but if you are paying >€450/each you should look for a cheaper shop 🙂
How about the XT19? Anyone heard it ?
It also has been an object for
customisation.
"TAG McLaren announce that their F1 AvantGarde Loudspeaker Series has been significantly improved by extending the high frequency capability well above the audible range.
The improvement in sound quality has been achieved using a new, customised High Frequency Drive Unit from the Danish specialist Vifa. The new drive unit is based on the well regarded XT19 tweeter, but customised to maintain linearity to over 40kHz.
The new tweeter is far more linear and does not have any break-up resonances to well above 40kHz. "
It also has been an object for
customisation.
"TAG McLaren announce that their F1 AvantGarde Loudspeaker Series has been significantly improved by extending the high frequency capability well above the audible range.
The improvement in sound quality has been achieved using a new, customised High Frequency Drive Unit from the Danish specialist Vifa. The new drive unit is based on the well regarded XT19 tweeter, but customised to maintain linearity to over 40kHz.
The new tweeter is far more linear and does not have any break-up resonances to well above 40kHz. "
fwiw,
I have both the xt19 and the xt25 and have measured both. They are both very interesting, regardless of their price. I also have seen Linkwitz's measurements on the xt25.
Folks complain about the distortion of the xt25 but, they aren't really thinking about this. In the right setting, this tweeter has very good measurements. Certainly, nonlinear distortion is lousy below 2.5k. But it's fair around 3k and actually quite good above that. It has excellent linear distortion numbers, in the same league as the SS9800 and Seas excel (if not better!) With higher xover points, or lower ones steeply crossed and with an RLC, this is an excellent tweeter. It drops off off-axis a bit fast and this is kind of a drawback, or at least I consider it so.
But the xt19 has better off axis performance with only a slight distortion penalty and would be an excellent choice for a 3 way crossed correctly.
All in all, very interesting designs. I have not seen head to head measurements of the SS version. It would be interesting.
As far as prices, well, who knows. I doubt SS makes much money selling diy ring radiators, so perhaps they set the price riduculously high to add to an air supreme esoterica. They aren't interested in selling alot of diy for this driver. They're just adding to the mystique.
It probably is better than the vifa versions. But by how much. The loudspeaker makers, no fools themselves, probably don't think the extra premium is worth the incremental performance benefit, especially since their customers aren't clamoring for the more expensive ring radiator.
It's a bit of a game.
That's why we need head to head measurements, traditional, and in the fashion of SL, to really figure it out and not be suckered.
I have both the xt19 and the xt25 and have measured both. They are both very interesting, regardless of their price. I also have seen Linkwitz's measurements on the xt25.
Folks complain about the distortion of the xt25 but, they aren't really thinking about this. In the right setting, this tweeter has very good measurements. Certainly, nonlinear distortion is lousy below 2.5k. But it's fair around 3k and actually quite good above that. It has excellent linear distortion numbers, in the same league as the SS9800 and Seas excel (if not better!) With higher xover points, or lower ones steeply crossed and with an RLC, this is an excellent tweeter. It drops off off-axis a bit fast and this is kind of a drawback, or at least I consider it so.
But the xt19 has better off axis performance with only a slight distortion penalty and would be an excellent choice for a 3 way crossed correctly.
All in all, very interesting designs. I have not seen head to head measurements of the SS version. It would be interesting.
As far as prices, well, who knows. I doubt SS makes much money selling diy ring radiators, so perhaps they set the price riduculously high to add to an air supreme esoterica. They aren't interested in selling alot of diy for this driver. They're just adding to the mystique.
It probably is better than the vifa versions. But by how much. The loudspeaker makers, no fools themselves, probably don't think the extra premium is worth the incremental performance benefit, especially since their customers aren't clamoring for the more expensive ring radiator.
It's a bit of a game.
That's why we need head to head measurements, traditional, and in the fashion of SL, to really figure it out and not be suckered.
Forgive me for jumping in here.
From my experience, the actual drivers used is not necessarily what makes a speaker expensive. It is the years of experience that it takes to tweak a complex system that consists of several drivers, crossover network, enclosure, room etc. Now, if YOU do it in your spare time it costs you only the time that you lose. But there are actual professionals out there that do this for a living and NOT for minimum wage. I also have to agree with NAVIN here on many counts, that it is more important to KNOW your material (ie. the VIFA XT tweeter) than the initial pricepoint of the material. IMHO the only thing that counts in the end is how the material works TOGETHER. I have had a similar experience lately with our professional WESTLAKE AUDIO BBSM-6 monitors. All drivers blew after the N_E blackout and we had to replace them. The original replacement drivers for this $5000/pr speakers cost us $ 300.00. The AUDAX tweeter costs $ 20 !! How can this be? Again, it is the TIME that someone spent putting the right kind of components together, the tweaking, selecting, matching etc. that costs the money. Also, the marketing, customer service, facilities etc. AND also, to some extend: the demands of the market which does cater to a certain amount of snob appeal and the idea that whatever is cheap cannot be good.
Yours truly
😉
From my experience, the actual drivers used is not necessarily what makes a speaker expensive. It is the years of experience that it takes to tweak a complex system that consists of several drivers, crossover network, enclosure, room etc. Now, if YOU do it in your spare time it costs you only the time that you lose. But there are actual professionals out there that do this for a living and NOT for minimum wage. I also have to agree with NAVIN here on many counts, that it is more important to KNOW your material (ie. the VIFA XT tweeter) than the initial pricepoint of the material. IMHO the only thing that counts in the end is how the material works TOGETHER. I have had a similar experience lately with our professional WESTLAKE AUDIO BBSM-6 monitors. All drivers blew after the N_E blackout and we had to replace them. The original replacement drivers for this $5000/pr speakers cost us $ 300.00. The AUDAX tweeter costs $ 20 !! How can this be? Again, it is the TIME that someone spent putting the right kind of components together, the tweaking, selecting, matching etc. that costs the money. Also, the marketing, customer service, facilities etc. AND also, to some extend: the demands of the market which does cater to a certain amount of snob appeal and the idea that whatever is cheap cannot be good.
Yours truly
😉
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