Ringradiators and the high end...

[navin]

in short...if anyone thinks they can offer a better deal to customers should try it and then speak from experience. i have seen many fail.

 

[navin]

just a disclaimer to my previous statement.

the reasons to DIY

1. commercial speakers are usually built to fit an enviroment that the designer has assumed. In fact I have seen speakers designed to work well in small Europena apts and also others designed to work well in large American living rooms. as a DIYer one can incorporate ones living quarters into the design and compensate for some of these in the speaker design (drivers, XO, cabinet etc..)

2. The is a significant cost saving but not a factor of 10. I would assume that cost saving owuld more in the order of 25-50%,

3. lots of leading edge ideas (push push TL for example) are too expensive for present day commercial designs. commercail single driver speakers and line sources are few and far between so as a DIYer one can experiment with these designs.

4. the saisfaction one has after making a speaker and the awe your friends have for your skills.

You can do this with simple $10 drivers or $500 drivers. usually i try to keep driver cost where it is less than 50% of the cost of the speaker and the other 50% is the cabinet and XO. for example my recent curved box speaker cost me $106 in drivers and about $116 in cabinets so far. The XOs have cost me about $20. finishing the boxes (painting) should cost about $40.

The drivers are a 8" Eminence woofer slightly modified and Vifa TC series 6" and 1" drivers.

 

[wintermute]

Tony, if true, it wouldn't be the first time. There was a high-end company in Colorado that sold an ultra-expensive speaker based on the relatively cheap Carver ribbon. To your fruit example, I can certainly testify that I've seen the same thing in the wine business. And what's more, I've seen consumers in non-blind tests invariably choose the more expensive, prestigious brand as clearly tasting better.

The phycological effect 🙂 either that or the people are too embarassed to say they think they are the same, because it will show that they can't appreciate good wine! I can see how that would apply to speakers too.

Back to the topic...... In the end though I reckon the only real test is how does it sound to you personally. Everyone has different tastes, so what one person may think sounds absolutely fantastic, another person may really hate. It's all subjective in the end.

Regards,

Tony.

 

[caenot]

Rip-off?

I have done some research in the past months, and from what I have seen from several companies is that there is a trend:

- on speakers above 4K, they usually use good internal components and announce it - example in Living Voice Avatar, they are using Hovland Musicaps (over 30USD each - combine a bunch in a cross-over and the prices skyrocket)

- Materials for speaker cabinets - better finishes, better design (and anyone that is designing a high-end speaker should be concerned with Edge Diffraction and aesthetics)

- Good & excellent speakers - a mix: Scan-speak, Focal, Audio Technology, Dynaudio

- Good marketing, etc.

It is a similar discussion in the Games & Music industry (why is a CD costing over 15USD???)

From my perspective, they are entitled to charge a lot, since there is demand for it. DIY may save you THOUSANDS of USD, if done properly, but it is not for everybody, it requires knowledge, effort, patience and time. So, the other guys rely on speakers.

I am currently building a high-end speaker, already bought a couple of SS 2905/9700 and 15M4531K mids... will buy 4 1845K for Bass (or maybe other brand).. let you guys know later...

 

[Vigier]

Re: Rip-off?

It is a similar discussion in the Games & Music industry (why is a CD costing over 15USD???)

Wow...Over 15 USD... did you know that the normal price for a CD in the netherlands is € 19.99? That is 26.82 USD.... FOR THE SAME CD!

About speakerunits? The XT25 mentioned earlier is $53.50 at Madisound, the dutch price is €70 --> $93.93 Just one of the many examples.

GRRRR ... Just HAD to say this...

Grtz, joris

 

[hofffam]

Surely you appreciate that the Gaming & Music CDs you mention cost what they do because of the cost to create them, not manufacture and package them. In the case of computer or video games - it may take 25 software developers and testers working for 18 months just to get a game in a working state. If they cost $100,000 per year, that is $3,750,000 in labor costs to build the game. Final testing etc. will add to the cost. So if they sell the game for $50 they need to sell at least 80,000 units to break even. It is probably much higher than that because game now requires musicians, graphic artists, etc.. That applies to software in general. The raw materials are human creativity and skill.

 

[peace brainerd]

And forgive me as well for jumping in. With manufacturing capabilities where they are - we no longer make much of this stuff by hand and fantastically high tolerances are well within the range of even average manufacturers - most of the qualitative differences between products like tweeters come down to marketing. Look at the cheapest tweeter in any company's line next to one that is four times its price. The materials and facilities required for its manufacture are almost identical - and the company has them at hand. To produce an equivalent degree of performance comes down to "tweaking up" and "dumbing down" the process. And this is when the marketing team steps in. Confusing the aims of marketing and engineering leads right in to this thread. Economics is riddled with such "rabbit holes". It's best to just ignore them in hobbies like this. You'll narrow in on more objective assessments simply by staying in touch with forums like this. Sometimes Mr. Smiths Invisible Hand is just out there to jerk you off.

 

[Vigier]

Surely you appreciate that the Gaming & Music CDs you mention cost what they do because of the cost to create them, not manufacture and package them.

I shouldn't be doing this (going offtopic twice)... but anyway: I wasn't "angry" about the absolute price, but about the RELATIVE price: the same cd is almost 80% more expensive over here.. And that CD isn't more expensive because it's being sold in Europe..

If I want a CD, I buy it in canada or the US. The CD including costs for payment (transaction from NL to the US) and overseas shipping is still cheaper than here 🙂

Grtz, Joris

Sorry... I won't go offtopic in this topic again

 

[caenot]

Same reasoning, hofffam

Hofffam, I agree with your logic, I have developed SW in a large consulting company and I know the math behind it. As someone else spoke in another thread, the guys that work in these companies also have to make a living (and not on very low salaries, I bet)... so costs with MKT, payroll, etc.. add up quickly.

Nevertheless, I am one of the believers that the profits are really good in this business

 

[michaelpage26]

Sorry to be a little of topic. Someone said that maybe Krell considers 7000 ringradiator a rip off: Well the new LAT-1000 uses it here's a rare pic: (I have heard it costs 48,000$)

BTW don't forget some other -->giantly<-- priced Loudspeakers that use it too:
Gryphon Audio Poseidon ($130,000/pr)
Von Schweikert VR-11 ($130,000/pr ++)
Audio Physic Kronos ($49,000/pr)
Magnat Vintage ($40,000/pr)
Mission Pilastro ($40,000/pr)
Peak Consult Emperor ($42,000/pr)
Sonus Faber Stradivari ($32,000/pr)
Von Schweikert VR-9 SE (TBA)
Von Schweikert VR-7 SE (TBA)

So it seems to be a very good tweeter with bad dispersion, that sounds not far from a good ribbon...

Regards Michael

 

[5th element]

Im not sure if the 70 from scan was available when the XT was used in all those speakers we are talking about. I certainly know when the LAT2 came out the 70 was not available for DIY purchase for a good year, if not more. Now these drivers and loudspeakers are in the design process for a good time too, so it would make sense that the reason they dint use it is simply because noone had it to use.

Using the XT25 makes perfect sense to match the new extended range formats, so its a good marketing decision.

Now a couple of years on from the LAT's showcase the scan drivers are popping up left right and centre in the high end. Im sure if the scan70 was around when the first LAT was release it would have been included in it.

Ofcourse you are going to have to spend and good amount of money to get the scan within it. Remember a pair costs (obviously not to the manufacturer) £500 a pair, which is a lot. You are going to have to buy a speaker of atleast £5000 to even get a look in, and event then it would be a small bookshelf jobby that uses it.

 

[downward_dog]

Surely you appreciate that the Gaming & Music CDs you mention cost what they do because of the cost to create them, not manufacture and package them. In the case of computer or video games - it may take 25 software developers and testers working for 18 months just to get a game in a working state. If they cost $100,000 per year, that is $3,750,000 in labor costs to build the game. Final testing etc. will add to the cost. So if they sell the game for $50 they need to sell at least 80,000 units to break even. It is probably much higher than that because game now requires musicians, graphic artists, etc.. That applies to software in general. The raw materials are human creativity and skill.

Exactly! I think we DIYers forget that speaker manufacturers don't find their designs for free, and they don't get free rooms at CES or free magazine ads, and audio dealers don't sell the speakers at a 0% markup. In reality, dealers usually buy speakers at 50% of retail, so that ridiculously-priced $4000 speaker is actually designed, built, marketed, and distributed for only $2000.

 

[Circlotron]

So then, the retailer makes more money out of it than the designer/manufacturer. Hah! It sounds just like engineering vs marketing in a large company. 🙄

 

[Willitwork]

And forgive me as well for jumping in. With manufacturing capabilities where they are - we no longer make much of this stuff by hand and fantastically high tolerances are well within the range of even average manufacturers - most of the qualitative differences between products like tweeters come down to marketing. Look at the cheapest tweeter in any company's line next to one that is four times its price. The materials and facilities required for its manufacture are almost identical - and the company has them at hand. To produce an equivalent degree of performance comes down to "tweaking up" and "dumbing down" the process. And this is when the marketing team steps in. Confusing the aims of marketing and engineering leads right in to this thread. Economics is riddled with such "rabbit holes". It's best to just ignore them in hobbies like this. You'll narrow in on more objective assessments simply by staying in touch with forums like this. Sometimes Mr. Smiths Invisible Hand is just out there to jerk you off.

Excellent point. From what I've read in technical reviews the difference in quality between the XT25 and the SS unit is relatively minor from an engineering point of view. And that's not counting some of the Scan Speak's cosmetic features that contribute to higher cost yet have no effect on performance, sort of like comparing a Buick Electra with a Cadillac DeVille: significant difference in price between two very similar products. Despite its (relatively) low cost the XT25 has a lot going for it, after all it's Vifa's top-of-the-line tweeter and Vifa's certainly no stranger to high-end audio.

 

[elfranche]

Exactly.
The SS7000 *is* better, but not 10x-more-expensive better.