Dear Wakibaki,
Why should I engage myself in a measurement, what was not conjured up by myself, what I had found in the past not totally satisfying, and of which I know better? And here better means, as regards jitter sensitivity, something like 100? 1000? times more.
In fact, with a good modern scope one can see all the differences questioned here. I had shown the differences between two Identical Products - what can be seen is the result of "in-house tweaking" by the manufacturer. By the way, a side note for Jkeny, the "older", worse measuring unit is a good, old MEC oscillator equipped unit.
The point of Sy, like jitter is not audible, is not really an interest for me, because for me it's greatly audible. So why should I work for un-proving it, with an inadequate test method?
Ciao, George
Why should I engage myself in a measurement, what was not conjured up by myself, what I had found in the past not totally satisfying, and of which I know better? And here better means, as regards jitter sensitivity, something like 100? 1000? times more.
In fact, with a good modern scope one can see all the differences questioned here. I had shown the differences between two Identical Products - what can be seen is the result of "in-house tweaking" by the manufacturer. By the way, a side note for Jkeny, the "older", worse measuring unit is a good, old MEC oscillator equipped unit.
The point of Sy, like jitter is not audible, is not really an interest for me, because for me it's greatly audible. So why should I work for un-proving it, with an inadequate test method?
Ciao, George
Where did I retract my original claims? And I had always emphasised, from the very first beginnings, that one should not attenuate normal, standard level SPDIF outputs.
Ciao, George
Ciao, George
I have no idea what your original claims were or if you retracted them.
Now, I'll ask again- you DO claim that I said jitter is not audible. Where did I say that?
Now, I'll ask again- you DO claim that I said jitter is not audible. Where did I say that?
Sy,
Finally! I was just wondering how long will I have to go in provoking, and make You pronounce on it..
Though You have told so, more or less, here:
Finally! I was just wondering how long will I have to go in provoking, and make You pronounce on it..
Though You have told so, more or less, here:
Last edited:
That's quite different than saying "jitter is not audible." Please don't play the Thorsten game of false attributions, I think you're a much better person than that.
"Found" the CD, put it in an old philps. Played track 26. Got exactly the same result on my old SA (with the analog out of the player, no spdif involved). Only the noisefloor was much higher. Probably me; used crap cabling (cinch audio and errr cinch->bnc connector 🙂 ) and changed the gain on the SA so the 11kHz matched 0dB (don't worry, this thing is not calibrated..).
But the spurs where bang on then, freq and level. But then the DAC should produce this signal i guess. Anything different and the DAC does not reproduce the original, which has jitter. So good to verify that the test setup works, including the levels. Good to have. Think i've answered my own question from "some" posts ago.
But i still have doubts that this can be used for practical situations. Say changing the crappy xtal to a better clock. I know i can see the difference on bck with my timing analyser. But at the analog side, when i fixed the noisefloor.... Don't think so. So "upgrading" a clock cannot change the sound??
Joseph K said:
Because your credibility and appearance of sincerity are on the line...
...well, they would be if you had any remaining.
w
If you send the gadgets to me, I'd be glad to test them - heck - I'll even listen to them! 😱
But I'm not sure I have a DAC sensitive enough to jitter. Maybe my CityPulse will do?
And I volunteer to use bad terminations, or none at all, if that will help. Will use rotten cables, too. Will have to see if I have a cheap USB to spdif dongle. I think there is a CMedia chip device here.
I am prepared to be called all sorts of names and accused of bad behavior and bad technique when the results are in, it seems part of the exercise. But I really would like some of the jitter mavens to show me an FFT of small jitter that needs better than a -135dB noise floor or tighter than 65K bins. If you can't show me that, then I will not entertain your arguments. It's a put up or shut up deal.
If Mr Keny agrees, maybe SY can ship the stuff to me. But it won't happen right away because I'm very behind on all projects. Before Christmas if we are lucky.
But I'm not sure I have a DAC sensitive enough to jitter. Maybe my CityPulse will do?
And I volunteer to use bad terminations, or none at all, if that will help. Will use rotten cables, too. Will have to see if I have a cheap USB to spdif dongle. I think there is a CMedia chip device here.
I am prepared to be called all sorts of names and accused of bad behavior and bad technique when the results are in, it seems part of the exercise. But I really would like some of the jitter mavens to show me an FFT of small jitter that needs better than a -135dB noise floor or tighter than 65K bins. If you can't show me that, then I will not entertain your arguments. It's a put up or shut up deal.
If Mr Keny agrees, maybe SY can ship the stuff to me. But it won't happen right away because I'm very behind on all projects. Before Christmas if we are lucky.
I make changes to the clock PS & clock handling circuits of the stock Hiface which are audible but based on SY's results, not measurable using his methodology or set-up.
Ouch!
I had exchanged some emails with SY and inquired a few times regarding jkeny's device and he was gracious enough to invite me to give it a listen but it's been a busy week. I would have been happy to have posted my subjective impressions (although worth only a plug nickel!).
ok....I'll run now!😀
I had exchanged some emails with SY and inquired a few times regarding jkeny's device and he was gracious enough to invite me to give it a listen but it's been a busy week. I would have been happy to have posted my subjective impressions (although worth only a plug nickel!).
ok....I'll run now!😀
Pano, I think you meant to qualify that by saying "jitter on the spdif line," right? There's no controversy that jitter at the DAC can very well be audible.
I'm working in the morning at 9, but I can swing by because I can probably sneak out after a few hours. Fresh is good..my brain will overhype the evening after a few days! (...it was as if violins played)...no, just fiddles😀
Well we are testing for SPDIF line jitter, so yeah. I don't expect other jitter to change. But if any does, it should be visible.
There is a lot of moaning that the tests are not sensitive enough. But no evidence to back that up. Why not? I'm prepared to except it if it is shown. So far, no one has.
There is a lot of moaning that the tests are not sensitive enough. But no evidence to back that up. Why not? I'm prepared to except it if it is shown. So far, no one has.
It's odd really, those who doubt the efficacy of this mod are prepared to do the test and be proved wrong, but those who DO believe in the efficacy are not prepared to do the test and prove themselves right.
It's good to see such levels of confidence.
w
It's good to see such levels of confidence.
w
@panomaniac
I thank you for offering to take this for testing but I really think, at this stage, that further testing is fraught with issues.
I'm happy for you to have a listen ( DBT if required but I'm happy with plain listening too) preferably with a few different DACs, at least one of a reasonable quality.
@sonidos,
I'll repeat what I posted earlier.
SY has proven that he can neither hear nor measure any difference between the two devices, never mind with/without the attenuators.
Sonidos, I don't think you have a DAC or I would have suggested that you take it away for listening in your own system.
I thank you for offering to take this for testing but I really think, at this stage, that further testing is fraught with issues.
I'm happy for you to have a listen ( DBT if required but I'm happy with plain listening too) preferably with a few different DACs, at least one of a reasonable quality.
@sonidos,
I'll repeat what I posted earlier.
SY has proven that he can neither hear nor measure any difference between the two devices, never mind with/without the attenuators.
Sonidos, I don't think you have a DAC or I would have suggested that you take it away for listening in your own system.
Hi John
I wouldn't want to pour complete derision on your beleif that the device sounds different and I think it bears exploring. I find it hard to accept that it would make a HUGE difference, but equally, a number of satisfied customers have arisen from something!
I don't beleive that your characterisation of the measurements SY has given is entirely accurate - he did identify minor differences in measurement, but has identified that they are below the practical limits of audibility. He hasn't proven that he cannot hear any difference as far as I recall - he has expressed an opinion that this would be the case with regard to differences arising from the focus of the testing.
Your discussion around wine is interesting and is a comparison I've made before (we are not alone in this). The comparison between audio sound and wine is valid imho. The difference is that the wine industry has a universally understood vocabulary and an accepted process for assessing the subjective attributes in wine.
They also understand implicitly that it IS subjective and that the result may vary somewhat from one assessment to the next!
Audio, it seems, does not have either the universally accepted language or a universally accepted process for subjective assessment.
And we also have a problem with understanding that subjective assessments are NOT hard and fast and absolute statements don't belong in the realm of subjective assessment.
I wouldn't want to pour complete derision on your beleif that the device sounds different and I think it bears exploring. I find it hard to accept that it would make a HUGE difference, but equally, a number of satisfied customers have arisen from something!
I don't beleive that your characterisation of the measurements SY has given is entirely accurate - he did identify minor differences in measurement, but has identified that they are below the practical limits of audibility. He hasn't proven that he cannot hear any difference as far as I recall - he has expressed an opinion that this would be the case with regard to differences arising from the focus of the testing.
Your discussion around wine is interesting and is a comparison I've made before (we are not alone in this). The comparison between audio sound and wine is valid imho. The difference is that the wine industry has a universally understood vocabulary and an accepted process for assessing the subjective attributes in wine.
They also understand implicitly that it IS subjective and that the result may vary somewhat from one assessment to the next!
Audio, it seems, does not have either the universally accepted language or a universally accepted process for subjective assessment.
And we also have a problem with understanding that subjective assessments are NOT hard and fast and absolute statements don't belong in the realm of subjective assessment.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.