A UK company made an idler using a stamped piece of sheet rubber. This was clamped inside a well made plastic two piece interlocking device. I suspect it was ground as the look was as the originals. Sadly the pin bearing was dreadful and spoilt an otherwise good idea. Two metal plates could do the same job and be better than an o-ring. I seem the remember the shore hardness ( D ) was 65, that is about like a car tyre, 40 is a pencil rubber I believe. Technical and General comes to mind as the company.
About the price of building turntables. My friend Terry looked at doing a new Garrard 301 in China. The initial investment regardless of quantity would be about £250 000. We calculated even if we sold 10 000 pieces we still would not beat £500. Seeing as good examples of the real 301 exist it seems a dead duck. Also many say the Chinese do not always do a good job even when pre production samples look OK. SME who are a very sensible company charge more than the prices questioned. To be honest their turntable is very easy to make, a 601 isn't. Avid are the people who offer most for least. Conrad admits the turntables are a hobby and he has a serrious engineering company to support it. Conrad offers sometime much like SME for £5000. I remember the boss of Thorens asking if we could make the TD124. I said no, he smiled and said " we would love it if you could". Projekt is an interesting company. The cheaper they are the more the passion. I never felt that same passion when higher up the scale in their range. The Platine Verdier being my other favourite and JVC TT81. Lenco my most favourite.
To make a batch of 10 TD124 I suspect would cost £50 000 in the UK, I also suspect they wouldn't be as good as the original. There would in addition be £30 000 money to live on whilst starting prduction even if being very frugal. That is using the engineering contactor to be your workshop, if not add another 30K. Most engineering companies are surprisingly unable to make turntable parts. We have many FI contractors near to us. It's a motorcar and it is not the same and they get it wrong and can't be told when wrong. Sometimes if older staff are around they know how it was done. This isn't about old verses new. It's just a way of thinking to suit the tasks and requirements. Watchmakers should be 100% able to do it.
The 501 prototype was built at one of the worlds most famous universities at the dept of engineering. He has a 301 which he religiously followed as to where to start from. Without that help impossible. All the same it cost a house in South London to do it ( Nellor Road ) . I doubt that money ever came back.
About the price of building turntables. My friend Terry looked at doing a new Garrard 301 in China. The initial investment regardless of quantity would be about £250 000. We calculated even if we sold 10 000 pieces we still would not beat £500. Seeing as good examples of the real 301 exist it seems a dead duck. Also many say the Chinese do not always do a good job even when pre production samples look OK. SME who are a very sensible company charge more than the prices questioned. To be honest their turntable is very easy to make, a 601 isn't. Avid are the people who offer most for least. Conrad admits the turntables are a hobby and he has a serrious engineering company to support it. Conrad offers sometime much like SME for £5000. I remember the boss of Thorens asking if we could make the TD124. I said no, he smiled and said " we would love it if you could". Projekt is an interesting company. The cheaper they are the more the passion. I never felt that same passion when higher up the scale in their range. The Platine Verdier being my other favourite and JVC TT81. Lenco my most favourite.
To make a batch of 10 TD124 I suspect would cost £50 000 in the UK, I also suspect they wouldn't be as good as the original. There would in addition be £30 000 money to live on whilst starting prduction even if being very frugal. That is using the engineering contactor to be your workshop, if not add another 30K. Most engineering companies are surprisingly unable to make turntable parts. We have many FI contractors near to us. It's a motorcar and it is not the same and they get it wrong and can't be told when wrong. Sometimes if older staff are around they know how it was done. This isn't about old verses new. It's just a way of thinking to suit the tasks and requirements. Watchmakers should be 100% able to do it.
The 501 prototype was built at one of the worlds most famous universities at the dept of engineering. He has a 301 which he religiously followed as to where to start from. Without that help impossible. All the same it cost a house in South London to do it ( Nellor Road ) . I doubt that money ever came back.
@ Nigel'
Off topic but I believe interesting is that back in about 1990 I approached SME regarding having a run of complicated fly-fishing reels made. What surprised me was SME's capability. They had on one smallish floor a plant capable of every stage of production by CNC and hand manufacture, from raw billet to fully finished and anodised parts, of precision made items. They had I seem to remember x3 5-centre CNC machines, tumblers, metal finishing plants etc. It was as clean as a surgical unit; their main work was in the defence sector. All parts of their own sound products (arms, TTs etc) could be made in less than 24 hours for one year's supply! I was very impressed. [What killed my project was the set-up costs....proving of design by hand made samples, programming, machine set up etc. left only 12-17% gross revenue to cover distribution, advertising, et al. This aspect has to be taken into account when we whinge about the high cost of luxury limited production items such as turntables and arms or when we imagine that we could produce our own designs at an adequate profit level.]
A really first rate company.
Off topic but I believe interesting is that back in about 1990 I approached SME regarding having a run of complicated fly-fishing reels made. What surprised me was SME's capability. They had on one smallish floor a plant capable of every stage of production by CNC and hand manufacture, from raw billet to fully finished and anodised parts, of precision made items. They had I seem to remember x3 5-centre CNC machines, tumblers, metal finishing plants etc. It was as clean as a surgical unit; their main work was in the defence sector. All parts of their own sound products (arms, TTs etc) could be made in less than 24 hours for one year's supply! I was very impressed. [What killed my project was the set-up costs....proving of design by hand made samples, programming, machine set up etc. left only 12-17% gross revenue to cover distribution, advertising, et al. This aspect has to be taken into account when we whinge about the high cost of luxury limited production items such as turntables and arms or when we imagine that we could produce our own designs at an adequate profit level.]
A really first rate company.
Good to know that it can work. An iron/teak wood plates also came to my mind.
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Remanufacturing vintage turntables : Bearing and motor can be in made in respective country of origin. The rest which can be made in other countries with cheap labour and material costs you mentioned to save cost. A relaunched Technics 1200 was launched at 4000 dollars. Which is pretty expensive I think.
Pardon me for being offtopic.
regards.
I can relate to all of that. They made the 501 main bearing spindle for us. Alas it is now owned by a new outfit. People seem unhappy with many changes.
The BBC made an amplifier to compete with the Quad 405. They made 50 if I remember. It was so as not to seem to be only using Quad. They were astonished to find it cost 400% the 405. When asking Quad they said they had to sell 25 000 before making money.
Exactly. MOD work also makes them more willing to chance the price.
Although a little off topic not really as getting a good job done at a good price is not easy.
The 501 spindle was taken to a serrious company who did centreless grinding. They quoted about £80 in 10's and £8 in 1000's as best I can remember. I said to the guy how come ( I knew really ). He said the job required 3.5 days set up to the very high standard we wanted ( as the job is slightly complex ). After that the machine would spit them out. He was very honest and said he prefered 50 at £18 a piece. Lastly, he turned us down as he knew we wanted better. When done by the people from Sussex it was much more. They asked what tollerences we wanted to which we said " same as yours ". How hard was that? I am not a mechanical engineer. I had to learn.
I think that is just the market. If I had to replace my 1989 vintage Xerxes with equivalent new TT and arm it would be £5000 before I chose a cartridge. So the old girl will have to keep soldiering on. the xerxes is nearly 10x 1989 prices and the Artemiz arm was £350 in the 80s and is now £2200.
In fact the SME model 10 at £4300 is cheaper than the Xerxes 20+.
In fact the SME model 10 at £4300 is cheaper than the Xerxes 20+.
China is now our workshop. The product is designed wherever and the code emailed to a Chinese company, and off they go. Remember, CNC machines operate the same no matter where they are.
Record players are very simple devices, the difficult part would be convincing potential buyers that 10K is a good deal.
There is always a market for quality, perceived or real. My SME arm is a work of beauty and will outlast me. Low volume or very high precision work will always be local. Hobby mills and 3D printing may even move it closer for some parts.
I have a UK made car
my wife has a uk made car
I have UK made turntable, UK made tonearm, swiss and german cartridges
I have scottish fabbed silicon in my power amps
So for quality stuff not much from china.
I have a UK made car
my wife has a uk made car
I have UK made turntable, UK made tonearm, swiss and german cartridges
I have scottish fabbed silicon in my power amps
So for quality stuff not much from china.
Other than a few commodity electronic components in some of the electronics I designed and built there is nothing from China in my main system.
That said there are some amazing bargains for Chinese electronics on eBay and taobao at least that will put you into near high end for relatively small expenditures.
That said there are some amazing bargains for Chinese electronics on eBay and taobao at least that will put you into near high end for relatively small expenditures.
So for quality stuff not much from china.
Just about all consumer products are now produced in China. I can remember back when we live in Sussex in the early 80's and of a bicycle shop that sold Raleigh cycles and all the shipping boxes were labelled, "Made in China". No mention of China on the bikes though, so it is nothing new.
All my vintage equipment has been out of commission for years, all but for a pair of Tannoys. I seem to remember hearing that even they are getting their DC speakers made in China? Those once difficult to make "pepper pots" would be a breeze on a cnc machine.
Just about all consumer products are now produced in China. I can remember back when we live in Sussex in the early 80's and of a bicycle shop that sold Raleigh cycles and all the shipping boxes were labelled, "Made in China". No mention of China on the bikes though, so it is nothing new.
All my vintage equipment has been out of commission for years, all but for a pair of Tannoys. I seem to remember hearing that even they are getting their DC speakers made in China? Those once difficult to make "pepper pots" would be a breeze on a cnc machine.
I found the clutch ring but it doesn't have the actuator knob/lever, nor the springs and washers.
Best,
Jim
Best,
Jim
Parts appear from time to time on eBay, that's how I got many of the parts I needed to complete my second (basket case) TD-124 which is now in good running order and has everything one would expect to find in an original series 124. Took parts from at least 4 different tables to get there, and some interesting trades with members here.
Hi guys,
I'm new here. I registered because I picked up one Thorens mark 2 with SME 3012 arm in front of my door this morning. It looks old, wet and in bad shape. What should I do to make it works well again?
I'm new here. I registered because I picked up one Thorens mark 2 with SME 3012 arm in front of my door this morning. It looks old, wet and in bad shape. What should I do to make it works well again?
Clutch ring
Hi Jim,
Many thanks for replying. My apologies for not seeing this sooner, I have just been a bit busy with work the last while. Would you be prepared to sell me the clutch ring as is? I can source the washers, springs, circlips and grubscrews; the actuator knob I can always make out of wood. I have an incredibly hard wood (African Tambotie) in my garage crying to be used.🙂
Kevin
Hi Jim,
Many thanks for replying. My apologies for not seeing this sooner, I have just been a bit busy with work the last while. Would you be prepared to sell me the clutch ring as is? I can source the washers, springs, circlips and grubscrews; the actuator knob I can always make out of wood. I have an incredibly hard wood (African Tambotie) in my garage crying to be used.🙂
Kevin
TD-124 clutch
Hi Jim,
Many thanks for your help. As it is my sister lives in the USA, and is coming over to South Africa for her daughter's wedding in a few weeks. She is currently in North Carolina, so it will be even easier to get it to me. I'll get her address and then send you a PM with the details et al.
Kevin
Hi Jim,
Many thanks for your help. As it is my sister lives in the USA, and is coming over to South Africa for her daughter's wedding in a few weeks. She is currently in North Carolina, so it will be even easier to get it to me. I'll get her address and then send you a PM with the details et al.
Kevin
Give it plenty of 3 in 1 oil as a starting point. There is a small hole at the motor bottom to drip some in ( 100% you must do this and waste some to ensure it gets to the bearings, on it's side to use gravity to get it on the shaft). Do the top bearing from above and then work through. 3 in 1 is not the very best, it's 100% OK to use unlike some modern oils and will clean the gunge out ( often green ). I wrote to 3 in 1 to check that. Don't take the motor apart if unsure. It can be tricky to get it to aligne if you get unlucky. Get it working best you can before taking it apart. Do one thing at a time to be certain no new problem has been caused.
The SME is a must keep. It likes the Denon 103 and 110 if wanting to keep the price sensible. The low cost Ortofon MM also.