Of late given the constant problems with the MKII table I'm wondering whether should just cut my losses and move on to the Garrard 401 sitting in the wings. When this 124 works absolutely properly it's wonderful, but the constant fiddling with belts, stepped and idler pulleys leaves me thinking there has got to be a better way. It mostly doesn't work, and I'm tired of constantly "fixing" it. The constant drive train cacophony has gotten old.
Tonight I pulled the table apart and made a bunch of adjustments, fiddled with my collection of idlers and stepped pulleys and threw out the Schopper belt that was on it and put one of the cheap FLA belts back on it. I could hear the bloody thing squealing away from 8 feet away, now it is quiet, but probably only until the next time I use it.
The other one frankly isn't any better, but my expectations are lower since it is franken-table of pieces from about a half dozen 124s that had met their end. (not in my hands)
I was not able to determine whether or not there was a thrust plate in the bottom of the intermediate pulley bearing. I did find a big puddle of oil under it so I guess the seal is gone..
It's still quiet after two sides.
Maybe an SP10?
One big UGH.
<Sigh> And of course it is working its magic as usual.
Tonight I pulled the table apart and made a bunch of adjustments, fiddled with my collection of idlers and stepped pulleys and threw out the Schopper belt that was on it and put one of the cheap FLA belts back on it. I could hear the bloody thing squealing away from 8 feet away, now it is quiet, but probably only until the next time I use it.
The other one frankly isn't any better, but my expectations are lower since it is franken-table of pieces from about a half dozen 124s that had met their end. (not in my hands)
I was not able to determine whether or not there was a thrust plate in the bottom of the intermediate pulley bearing. I did find a big puddle of oil under it so I guess the seal is gone..
It's still quiet after two sides.
Maybe an SP10?
One big UGH.
<Sigh> And of course it is working its magic as usual.
The Garrard is equally difficult to get right. However once it is sorted out it seems very stable. I hope you have a 16 watt type ( other is 12 watt like my own ). 16 watt is less fussy. Whatever you do try to get the original idler working. Usually after some work they come back to life. 30 minutes with a clothe and alcohol whilst watching TV can beat a lathe for removing enough rubber to restore the grip. Usually rubber and alcohol don't mix. This is the exception. A few days at 78 completes the job.
The Lenco is the trouble maker. Even the SP10 can fear it.
The Lenco is the trouble maker. Even the SP10 can fear it.
Hi all, probably time for me to stop lurking and start posting, I've been following the thread for ages now. I've a dog in the race as I've been on a very lengthy (and stupidly expensive) journey rebuilding a very late TD-124/II. The whole thing is documented at length on this thread on my own website (pinkfishmedia.net). It is a catalogue of errors along with a lot of lessons learnt. I'm now finally at the stage I feel I have a properly restored and working pretty much mint condition TD-124 that sounds great, but I have yet to find a decent belt for it as the current production stuff is IMHO on the whole junk!
My deck sounds similar to Kevin's above in that it runs silently until there is the slightest amount of rubber shed from belt, at which point it starts making mechanical whirring noises. I am at this stage absolutely convinced that this is down to the belt and not the fault of the motor (completely rebuilt and working beautifully) or step-pulley (I have a choice of three plus I've replaced the bushings!). Simply cleaning the belt and running surfaces restores silent running, thus to my mind ruling out anything else from blame. The good thing is that this belt noise doesn't seem to exit the deck as rumble through the speakers, so I'm learning to accept it until I eventually discover a belt that isn't awful. There has to be one out there somewhere!
One issue I'm sure is significant is, being in the UK, I use the larger 50Hz pulley and this results in a belt tension that I am positive is way, way too tight with currently available belts marketed for the 124 (including Thorens' own). Logically there has to be two distinct belt lengths for this turntable, one for the 50Hz, one for the 60. My findings so far suggest the belt you want is the very loosest one that will actually start the deck. I've got a couple of pretty long ones winging their way to me from Turntable Basics at present. It would be interesting to know what everyone's favourite belt was along with which frequency pulley they were using.
PS There should definitely be a dark grey nylon thrust plate at the base of the step pulley bearing! If you undo the nut on the bottom chassis the whole assembly will drop out.
My deck sounds similar to Kevin's above in that it runs silently until there is the slightest amount of rubber shed from belt, at which point it starts making mechanical whirring noises. I am at this stage absolutely convinced that this is down to the belt and not the fault of the motor (completely rebuilt and working beautifully) or step-pulley (I have a choice of three plus I've replaced the bushings!). Simply cleaning the belt and running surfaces restores silent running, thus to my mind ruling out anything else from blame. The good thing is that this belt noise doesn't seem to exit the deck as rumble through the speakers, so I'm learning to accept it until I eventually discover a belt that isn't awful. There has to be one out there somewhere!
One issue I'm sure is significant is, being in the UK, I use the larger 50Hz pulley and this results in a belt tension that I am positive is way, way too tight with currently available belts marketed for the 124 (including Thorens' own). Logically there has to be two distinct belt lengths for this turntable, one for the 50Hz, one for the 60. My findings so far suggest the belt you want is the very loosest one that will actually start the deck. I've got a couple of pretty long ones winging their way to me from Turntable Basics at present. It would be interesting to know what everyone's favourite belt was along with which frequency pulley they were using.
PS There should definitely be a dark grey nylon thrust plate at the base of the step pulley bearing! If you undo the nut on the bottom chassis the whole assembly will drop out.
I have lurked here since the outset of this thread, and as every owner has outlined the difficulties experienced with 124s, I have remembered that I have that moth-eaten T-shirt in a drawer somewhere and thought that I will never again be tempted to wear it.
Having had four/five years of similar experience with both models back in the late 70s/early 80s I too got fed up to the back teeth with this, even then legendary, TT. And back then spares were usually available from the Thorens importer. I simply gave up...it was too expensive for what one ended up with and at its best was not that brilliant. [I had 'done time' on 301s prior to that, and all in all they were a lot more reliable and subjectively for me sounded better.]
Next came a car load of SP10 Mk2 [as removed from the BBC. I had a batch of four in all. The result was one really good TT which, after finding a makers B1(?)plinth, ran without any trouble other than a few new caps. All electronics were moved off-deck giving a big subjective improvement. Then that too started cogging. Being in a household move which ended up with me taking (substantial) legal action against lawyers I had no heart to attempt a repair. It went to a repair shop in Somerset some 6 years ago and despite having paid a substantial sum 'up-front', that repairer refuses to make/respond to, any contact with me; numerous other clients have the same experience.
Again spares are difficult and any SP10 - even as a dead donor - is now far too expensive for a gamble; many parts are unobtainable.
I am now starting on a heavy platter Lenco which is almost OK as is in a simple wooden plinth, [a slate and alloy replacement is all but ready].....but you DIYers can do so much with them - without paying a ransom. They are at least as good as any similar aged classic, and once set up, are totally reliable. I know that Mr Arthur Salvadori’s opinions are taken with a pinch of salt but he reckons it to be the best TT money can obtain……. But, in his case, at a very substantial price from the first really commercial Lenco rebuilder. $500-600, plus a fraction of the time you have spent on the 124 types, will get you what you need! 🙂
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Nice to know I am not alone, and the observations about the belt do seem to be highly relevant.
I'm looking forward to hearing something about new belt options. Even many of the available belts on 60Hz units seem to fit very tightly compared to the OEM belt delivered with the table. I have had nothing but trouble with belts since the inception..
My older unit gets up to speed so much quicker than the MKII which I also find puzzling.
I'm still working on the 3 phase source for the Papst motor that is supposed to be going in the MKII. Unless I can resolve the issues there's not much point to proceeding down this road.
The squealing was so bad I could hear it 8 feet away with music playing! This was with a Schopper belt which is now in the trash. (Well I needed to take revenge on something.. lol) Everything is scrupulously clean, no residue build up on either pulley..
I am going to start to focus on getting the 401 up and running. Nigel my 401 is a very early production unit that was rescued from NZ by a friend some years ago. I'm relatively certain it has the 12W motor, I believe we may have discussed this a while ago. All I need is a plinth and to fix the eddy current brake disk. (I have two so one of them should serve.)
I'm looking forward to hearing something about new belt options. Even many of the available belts on 60Hz units seem to fit very tightly compared to the OEM belt delivered with the table. I have had nothing but trouble with belts since the inception..
My older unit gets up to speed so much quicker than the MKII which I also find puzzling.
I'm still working on the 3 phase source for the Papst motor that is supposed to be going in the MKII. Unless I can resolve the issues there's not much point to proceeding down this road.
The squealing was so bad I could hear it 8 feet away with music playing! This was with a Schopper belt which is now in the trash. (Well I needed to take revenge on something.. lol) Everything is scrupulously clean, no residue build up on either pulley..
I am going to start to focus on getting the 401 up and running. Nigel my 401 is a very early production unit that was rescued from NZ by a friend some years ago. I'm relatively certain it has the 12W motor, I believe we may have discussed this a while ago. All I need is a plinth and to fix the eddy current brake disk. (I have two so one of them should serve.)
Has anyone tried using the Phoenix Engineering Road Runner and Eagle PSU (custom 25 watt version)? I'm wondering if this would help with speed control, as it seems to work magnificently with Lenco's. Using the Road Runner and Eagle, one could theoretically remove the eddy brake, which is a source of noise.
I have a home brew controller that allows me to disable the brake, I did not like the resulting performance.
Since it is an induction motor you can reduce the supply voltage sufficiently to reduce motor torque to the point where the brake is no longer needed.
I also have a slightly smaller diameter pulley which allowed me to reduce the braking force applied to the motor.
These experiments all resulted in an interesting result, quieter and less fussy operation, and unfortunately.. very much less involving sound. The table looses one of its cardinal attributes and that is energy/dynamics. Hard to explain. Extremely subjective I know.
Since it is an induction motor you can reduce the supply voltage sufficiently to reduce motor torque to the point where the brake is no longer needed.
I also have a slightly smaller diameter pulley which allowed me to reduce the braking force applied to the motor.
These experiments all resulted in an interesting result, quieter and less fussy operation, and unfortunately.. very much less involving sound. The table looses one of its cardinal attributes and that is energy/dynamics. Hard to explain. Extremely subjective I know.
One thing many of us are finding after a complete tear-down and rebuild of the motor is that our 124s actually start fast and then slow down after an hour or so. Mine is up to speed real quick, within one platter rotation using the heavy platter, and then very gradually slows down after an hour or so once the motor gets warm. I've set the fine pitch control to be right at this point so after a cold start cold the strobe shifts leftward. I've heard several folk say the same thing, the common factor seems to be either a Schopper rebuild or as in my case using Schopper oil in the motor. My motor is very free running and takes around 40 seconds to spin-down without the belt.
I know exactly what you mean about the squealing, I've had the same. You may find that once there is belt shed on the transport the position of the eddy-brake can really influence the noise. Backing it off (i.e. making the deck run too fast) reduces the noise. For me it was the start of a huge wrong-turn as I became absolutely convinced my step-pulley or step-pulley bearings were shot. Why wouldn't I? I'd just bought an expensive Schopper belt that claimed to be quiet running! I followed this line of enquiry until I had a collection of three step-pulley assemblies and another whole chassis assembly (I've still got a near mint TD-124/II chassis sitting upstairs doing nothing!). FWIW I can vouch for the quality of the sintered bronze step pulley bushings sold on eBay from Italy, they are very good and not too hard to fit, but they weren't to blame. It was the bloody belt.
as a peeping Tom (only in some forums 😉 )...
... I feel like I should apologize first if I repost ideas that have presented here in this thread.
Firstly: Hi Nigel and kevinkr: It's interesting to me that there are so many issues (both mechanical and perhaps electrical) with the Thorens TD-124 tables (and even the Garrards). There need not be.
Surely, Thorens must still have some reference materials and engineering notes, blueprints etc. I can't believe that they wouldn't make an attempt to help out folks that they can in any way. This certainly would go a long way regarding public perception of the brand. It could also help sales of new tables: ..."we still help owners of some of our oldest products. You can always trust a Thorens..."
Regarding Lenco turntables (via brianco) :
That would be Jean Nantais, who started a post some time ago regarding "lets make a DIY turntable" on one of the forums prior to doing commercial rebuilds (Lenco Heaven?). I have spoken with Jean via telephone and he stated that his intention was never to create a marketplace where old Lencos, Thorens, etc., would be priced away from the very folks he wanted to share his experiences with. He also stated that he had actually started his modifying experience with an old ELAC turntable that had many good virtues (a model 10H IIRC), that responded well to his new plinth, mods and the installation of a new arm.
Lenco spares themselves are not particularly inexpensive, but don't seem to have hit ridiculously high Thorens TD124 or Garrard 301/401 levels...yet.
... I feel like I should apologize first if I repost ideas that have presented here in this thread.
Firstly: Hi Nigel and kevinkr: It's interesting to me that there are so many issues (both mechanical and perhaps electrical) with the Thorens TD-124 tables (and even the Garrards). There need not be.
Surely, Thorens must still have some reference materials and engineering notes, blueprints etc. I can't believe that they wouldn't make an attempt to help out folks that they can in any way. This certainly would go a long way regarding public perception of the brand. It could also help sales of new tables: ..."we still help owners of some of our oldest products. You can always trust a Thorens..."
Regarding Lenco turntables (via brianco) :
That would be Jean Nantais, who started a post some time ago regarding "lets make a DIY turntable" on one of the forums prior to doing commercial rebuilds (Lenco Heaven?). I have spoken with Jean via telephone and he stated that his intention was never to create a marketplace where old Lencos, Thorens, etc., would be priced away from the very folks he wanted to share his experiences with. He also stated that he had actually started his modifying experience with an old ELAC turntable that had many good virtues (a model 10H IIRC), that responded well to his new plinth, mods and the installation of a new arm.
Well this depends on how far you want to go and how handy folks are. If paying someone to build a good plinth the pricing can get very stupid, very quickly. Now if one takes their time and has the facilities and skill themselves (and time) a very good plinth can be made. I don't know what the cost of BB ply is where ever people live, but where I live it is pretty reasonable (under CAD $80/sheet for 3/4, 19mm last time I checked). A single sheet can provide for a couple of plinths. Once you get a reasonable plinth made (don't worry about the cosmetics yet), mount your turntable and arm and give it a whirl. Then spend some money increasing the aesthetics of it all. Or use it as a basis for experimentation knowing what the dimensions and layout need to be.
Lenco spares themselves are not particularly inexpensive, but don't seem to have hit ridiculously high Thorens TD124 or Garrard 301/401 levels...yet.
TD 124 Belt compare
Because the belt in the 124 can give noise problems I decided to agree to do a study to compare the several new belts with the old original belt.
On the moment I"m working on a test to measure the tension, hardness, noise ,dimensions,speed and vibration spectrum in a Thorens TD124 Mk1 .
On the moment I have 13 belts and waithing on some to come from different vendors.
As reference noisefloor a spectrum measurement from 0-6,4 Khz were only the motor is running without belt.
It is a time consuming activity as it may take some time before all the results are there .
The only thing I can not test is an endurance test .
I think we can use this test as indication how important the different parameters are .I"m not a expert on this subject so input is always welcome.
Finally I hope to find the answer too development a optimum belt for the 124 our maybe find him.
Because the belt in the 124 can give noise problems I decided to agree to do a study to compare the several new belts with the old original belt.
On the moment I"m working on a test to measure the tension, hardness, noise ,dimensions,speed and vibration spectrum in a Thorens TD124 Mk1 .
On the moment I have 13 belts and waithing on some to come from different vendors.
As reference noisefloor a spectrum measurement from 0-6,4 Khz were only the motor is running without belt.
It is a time consuming activity as it may take some time before all the results are there .
The only thing I can not test is an endurance test .
I think we can use this test as indication how important the different parameters are .I"m not a expert on this subject so input is always welcome.
Finally I hope to find the answer too development a optimum belt for the 124 our maybe find him.
I've rebuilt quite a few of these motors (more than a dozen) and early on had problems with them slowing down as they warmed up, using the proper lubricants and making sure that the bearings are properly aligned makes a big difference. I really soak the felts and bearings during run in and take apart and clean everything carefully at around 100 hrs and reassemble. The older motors work better than very late MKII motors, except in terms of heat - my table is SN 86xxx and is pretty close to the end of the run, I'm aware of another 1500 or so beyond mine.
Motor bearings are another issue, I've had a bit of an epiphany on this issue and now recommend reuse unless excessively worn because currently available bearings seem to have lubrication issues. (I and several others have had them seize during run in despite a lot of lubrication)
I had piles of parts from the days I was refurbishing ones for friends. I've found that the later stepped pulley rings like a bell, and have found some damping to be useful in some instances and not others.
I've tried a half dozen different belts over the past few years and the Schopper is not one of the best IMHO, although Thakker is way worse shedding goo all over the motor and stepped pulley surfaces. I'm back to old OEM on one and what I call the "FLA" belt on the MKII. (See earlier in the thread for details.)
I keep the pulleys very clean, and I do occasionally talc the belt per the old Thorens service manual recommendations. This is at best a temporary fix. The real problems are excessive motor torque on modern line voltage, the design of that stepped pulley and currently available belts.
I've had some serious health issues in the not very distant past and fiddling with the TT when all I really want to do is listen to music after a hard day at work and a long commute home is not an ideal part of my future plans.. lol
The free running time from 40 seconds is a good indication for a correct working motor , good mechanical adjustment and minimum bushing friction .
The platter itself runs in one revolution on speed and change somewhat during warming up from the motor speed.
In my opinion the noise issue is mosttimes a combination from the belt and the condition from the steppulley bushings.
The belt test shows big differences in belt tension from the different suppliers .
wouldn't a variable supply frequency that gives maximum power and maximum torque whenever it is needed be a better audio solution?
If the motor needs 48.73Hz to turn the table at your required speed, then feed that frequency to an unbraked motor.
Incorrect belt tension could have two consequences.
a.) too high a tension, either from a correct length belt that is too stiff, or from a correct stiffness belt that is too short, will increase the side force on the motor and TT bearings. Too much friction and possible increase in wear rate.
b.) a change in tension/stiffness will change the frequency of oscillation of the drive system. The original system could have optimised the oscillation frequency to have the least effect on the audio outcomes. Changing tension, or stiffness, of the belt could change the audio outcomes.
My tests with TD124 and a PSU seemed to say it made little difference. This is both good and bad. Good in so much the belt is decoupling vibation. Bad if compared with a Garrard ( and Lenco no doubt ).
My feeling is the Garrard is the better deck with or without PSU. If a horse race the TD124 was out in front and fell at the last fence.
TD135 is a very worthy version.
Where Lenco beats all is on complex tempo even in classical music. It is probable the Garrard is ultimately the better turntable. Little things spoil the Lenco. At it's original price it would be stupid to think it less than a masterclass in engineering. The Garrard LAB 80 is better and worse.
I am sure the TD124 belt was a wrong move, penny pinching. They should have gone to Lenco for the motor. As far as I know the TD124 motor was bought in. Their ex parts lady is staying with me on Thursday. She might know.
My feeling is the Garrard is the better deck with or without PSU. If a horse race the TD124 was out in front and fell at the last fence.
TD135 is a very worthy version.
Where Lenco beats all is on complex tempo even in classical music. It is probable the Garrard is ultimately the better turntable. Little things spoil the Lenco. At it's original price it would be stupid to think it less than a masterclass in engineering. The Garrard LAB 80 is better and worse.
I am sure the TD124 belt was a wrong move, penny pinching. They should have gone to Lenco for the motor. As far as I know the TD124 motor was bought in. Their ex parts lady is staying with me on Thursday. She might know.
Please ask Martina maybe se knows my understanding is they made them self .They did the balancing at the factory !
That would be going back a long time. The company was Swiss then. That type of motor goes too slow to have difficult balancing problems. Static balance is best. I have learnt that from bitter experiance. I will ask Martina.
I think the motor was made for Thorens. It met a Thorens specifiction. It is a little bit smaller than I think is ideal. The belt I suspect was to get the required specification and save money. It also looks very good.
I have seen 6 pole motors for air conditioning, I have often wondered if a 6 pole would have been better. The 24 pole synchronous is different so not ideal.
One idea that could work is a DC motor to the TD124 outside. Add enough power to assist without doing too much. I would use 1/4 inch leader as a drive. The type of motor Yamaha used on tape decks comes to mind. Thinking something is easy, doing it?????
I think the motor was made for Thorens. It met a Thorens specifiction. It is a little bit smaller than I think is ideal. The belt I suspect was to get the required specification and save money. It also looks very good.
I have seen 6 pole motors for air conditioning, I have often wondered if a 6 pole would have been better. The 24 pole synchronous is different so not ideal.
One idea that could work is a DC motor to the TD124 outside. Add enough power to assist without doing too much. I would use 1/4 inch leader as a drive. The type of motor Yamaha used on tape decks comes to mind. Thinking something is easy, doing it?????
I had always understood that the motor was made by Papst for Thorens. At least this was the story in London & Ireland in the late 60s...not that that means anything whatsoever!
Would it be possible to just have a DC motor built at roughly the same size as the original E50 motor with the same specs (rpm, torque, etc.)?
I would use the DC motor in addition to the AC one. The idea being it has different virtues. The DC one using a belt of leader tape, making it stay on the platter would be slightly difficult. A bit like hybrid drive to F1 cars.
Papst could be true. If so I suspect to a Thorens design. Papst themselves seem slightly more sophisticted.
Papst could be true. If so I suspect to a Thorens design. Papst themselves seem slightly more sophisticted.