Semantics...
kevinkr: as I stated, it is semantics, I was trying to be precise. It seems in my attempt to be specific, some haven't read the posts correctly. Not a slight to any, more so a comment about myself. Perhaps I did not state emphatically my ideas/concerns. Maybe my ADD (not ADHD) is getting in the way. This is often why I have so many typos in my posts.
GTHICM:As the original bushings (if that is the only option) were to be reused and the only way to get them completely clean were to use an abrasive to ream, drill or polish out (and thus potentially increase the clearance) I suggested using grease. Are the original Thorens bushings Oilite or similar? The Dual motor bushings appear to be just regular bronze. I've used grease on those and on Garrard motor bushings with good success. Never had a Lenco apart so I can't say in that instance.
brianco :I Google'd "naval bronze" which resulted in a product that does not indicate that it is oil impregnated.
I understand everyone's concern regarding using potentially damaging methods or products on serviceable bushings. My comments were intended as a follow up to user510's comment regarding "I'd choose the later" (reusing the original bushings). If the bushings were in very bad shape and essentially unusable in their current state, I was suggesting enlarging the hole, and using grease to help take up any play. This was not intended as a long-term, permanent repair.
kevinkr: as I stated, it is semantics, I was trying to be precise. It seems in my attempt to be specific, some haven't read the posts correctly. Not a slight to any, more so a comment about myself. Perhaps I did not state emphatically my ideas/concerns. Maybe my ADD (not ADHD) is getting in the way. This is often why I have so many typos in my posts.
GTHICM:As the original bushings (if that is the only option) were to be reused and the only way to get them completely clean were to use an abrasive to ream, drill or polish out (and thus potentially increase the clearance) I suggested using grease. Are the original Thorens bushings Oilite or similar? The Dual motor bushings appear to be just regular bronze. I've used grease on those and on Garrard motor bushings with good success. Never had a Lenco apart so I can't say in that instance.
brianco :I Google'd "naval bronze" which resulted in a product that does not indicate that it is oil impregnated.
I understand everyone's concern regarding using potentially damaging methods or products on serviceable bushings. My comments were intended as a follow up to user510's comment regarding "I'd choose the later" (reusing the original bushings). If the bushings were in very bad shape and essentially unusable in their current state, I was suggesting enlarging the hole, and using grease to help take up any play. This was not intended as a long-term, permanent repair.
Oilite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interestingly enough Chrysler Corp originally developed the Oilite bearing, and originally trademarked it back in the 1930s...
Something interesting to know is that machining this material is difficult and there are special requirements which are spelled out in the above link.. Drilling or reaming it is definitely the wrong thing to do as Steve pointed out..
The original TD-124 motor and main bearing are "Oilite" type bearings and are normally impregnated with a Thorens oil with an approximate SAE weight of 20..
I can't emphasize enough how important it is to properly impregnate any of these bearings before installation - they usually aren't ready to be installed out of the box. Failure to do it right may result in a seized motor, and this I know from experience. The felts should be soaked in oil before installation, you will have to clean up the mess after the bearing housings are installed - no big deal.
FWIW the Schopper bearings do not appear to be made from an alloy that resembles oilite, but I can't really tell for sure. My replacement bearings from jec965 look almost exactly like the originals and have worked fine for over 1000 hours of run time in my 124/II.
Two pairs of bearings from sq38s that I installed in other tables have also worked just fine although I did remove the flashing along the edges. I'm not sure what the story is with these particular bushings - but I would say it is fair to give Mirko an opportunity to address the issue.
I have an original pair which I have saved as spares in the event I need them at some point.. They are clogged with gelled oil, but are otherwise in excellent shape.
My TD-124/I is running the original bearings which I cleaned with solvent and re-impregnated in situ, at some point I will actually do a full rebuild on this motor as I did on my 124/II. The motor in the 124/I is just a little slower to come up to speed than the II, but is consistent with other 124s I have worked on. (Motor windings are different)
It's been a while since I said it, but I think these tables are great, even the ersatz 124 is good, better than anything else I have owned with the exception of the 124/II.
Interestingly enough Chrysler Corp originally developed the Oilite bearing, and originally trademarked it back in the 1930s...
Something interesting to know is that machining this material is difficult and there are special requirements which are spelled out in the above link.. Drilling or reaming it is definitely the wrong thing to do as Steve pointed out..
The original TD-124 motor and main bearing are "Oilite" type bearings and are normally impregnated with a Thorens oil with an approximate SAE weight of 20..
I can't emphasize enough how important it is to properly impregnate any of these bearings before installation - they usually aren't ready to be installed out of the box. Failure to do it right may result in a seized motor, and this I know from experience. The felts should be soaked in oil before installation, you will have to clean up the mess after the bearing housings are installed - no big deal.
FWIW the Schopper bearings do not appear to be made from an alloy that resembles oilite, but I can't really tell for sure. My replacement bearings from jec965 look almost exactly like the originals and have worked fine for over 1000 hours of run time in my 124/II.
Two pairs of bearings from sq38s that I installed in other tables have also worked just fine although I did remove the flashing along the edges. I'm not sure what the story is with these particular bushings - but I would say it is fair to give Mirko an opportunity to address the issue.
I have an original pair which I have saved as spares in the event I need them at some point.. They are clogged with gelled oil, but are otherwise in excellent shape.
My TD-124/I is running the original bearings which I cleaned with solvent and re-impregnated in situ, at some point I will actually do a full rebuild on this motor as I did on my 124/II. The motor in the 124/I is just a little slower to come up to speed than the II, but is consistent with other 124s I have worked on. (Motor windings are different)
It's been a while since I said it, but I think these tables are great, even the ersatz 124 is good, better than anything else I have owned with the exception of the 124/II.
Then why don't you make some E50 motor bushings for the group.
These items tend to sell. You'll get yer investment back.
-Steve
Ersatz TD-124 Update
Tonight I installed my antique DL-103D on the SME 3009 Series II which lives on my TD-124/I. Running through Partridge 977 transformers this sounds very nice indeed. Not quite the power, or speed of the Schick/SPU combination on the 124/II, but it is nonetheless quite nice on its own. The gap in performance with the recent installation of a refreshed 124 main bearing and spindle has closed considerably. While not quite a match for the other set up, it is closer than anything else I have heard here.
I am missing just a few parts now to complete the restoration back to full TD-124 status.. I have the speed change cam follower, cam and band, I just need the knob end of things and the repairs will be complete.. In the mean time it runs as a single speed machine like the 121.. I'm debating about the top platter issue, if I can find one excellent, if not perhaps a graphite mat is in the future for this table. It will eventually get a good plinth, probably the slate one the other table currently lives in and a spot in a yet to be built rack.. Also a dedicated phono stage different yet equal to my D3A/5842 based design. Future plans include a 12" arm for this one - probably a 3012 conversion kit I will install on one of my 3009s..
Tonight I installed my antique DL-103D on the SME 3009 Series II which lives on my TD-124/I. Running through Partridge 977 transformers this sounds very nice indeed. Not quite the power, or speed of the Schick/SPU combination on the 124/II, but it is nonetheless quite nice on its own. The gap in performance with the recent installation of a refreshed 124 main bearing and spindle has closed considerably. While not quite a match for the other set up, it is closer than anything else I have heard here.
I am missing just a few parts now to complete the restoration back to full TD-124 status.. I have the speed change cam follower, cam and band, I just need the knob end of things and the repairs will be complete.. In the mean time it runs as a single speed machine like the 121.. I'm debating about the top platter issue, if I can find one excellent, if not perhaps a graphite mat is in the future for this table. It will eventually get a good plinth, probably the slate one the other table currently lives in and a spot in a yet to be built rack.. Also a dedicated phono stage different yet equal to my D3A/5842 based design. Future plans include a 12" arm for this one - probably a 3012 conversion kit I will install on one of my 3009s..
Questions for the group:
Has anyone installed the new silicone mushrooms/grommets offered by jec965?
Impressions?
Has anyone installed the new silicone mushrooms/grommets offered by jec965?
Impressions?
I used them on my TD-124/II before I got the slate plinth and mounted the table directly on the slate. They worked just fine, and I also have a set from sq38s on my TD-124/I and they also seem to work just fine. Beyond that I can't really say - never did any measurements to determine whether there was a difference in noise floor between the two, but the tables in question are both quiet enough for their intended use.
Silicone Mushrooms?
Hello,
Are you referring to those 4 large rubber mushrooms that goes under the TT top plate? I didn't know jec965 offered them. I don't use them. I mounted my TT top plate directly to my plinth. I am also using silicone grommets for the motor mounts (a must!!) and silicone pads on the platter.
David
Hello,
Are you referring to those 4 large rubber mushrooms that goes under the TT top plate? I didn't know jec965 offered them. I don't use them. I mounted my TT top plate directly to my plinth. I am also using silicone grommets for the motor mounts (a must!!) and silicone pads on the platter.
David
Yes I am (mushrooms). I have upgraded the motor suspension as well, but not with the silicon grommets. I use silicon platter pads too.
I was contemplating replacing the mushrooms since mine are a bit dried up and cracked, but I guess I'll wait until I have a new plinth made and then I'll probably do as you guys did and mount the chassis directly to the plinth.
TD 124
Hi Kevin, everyone.
I have a late version TD 124 I, and have posted here many times, but not recently.
I have been through most of what all of you have, I got my TD 124 from the original owners son. His Father had died many years before, and the TD 124 had been sitting in a unheated garage. Of course, I needed to do most of the usual resoration items, such as drivebelt, mushrooms, lube all bearings, etc.
After the learning curve flattened, it's been working fantastic. Thanks to all here that care about the TD 124 that have allowed us all to learn from each others triumphs, and mistakes.
Now, if someone came up with a truly good replacement drive belt, and if I could find a replacement metal shift belt. ( I made my own.)
Gene
Hi Kevin, everyone.
I have a late version TD 124 I, and have posted here many times, but not recently.
I have been through most of what all of you have, I got my TD 124 from the original owners son. His Father had died many years before, and the TD 124 had been sitting in a unheated garage. Of course, I needed to do most of the usual resoration items, such as drivebelt, mushrooms, lube all bearings, etc.
After the learning curve flattened, it's been working fantastic. Thanks to all here that care about the TD 124 that have allowed us all to learn from each others triumphs, and mistakes.
Now, if someone came up with a truly good replacement drive belt, and if I could find a replacement metal shift belt. ( I made my own.)
Gene
Hi Gene,
I'm so thrilled with mine I am now restoring another.. 😀 It played upstairs at today's audiofest whilst my 124/II covered the downstairs..
I've agreed to take on another for someone I know locally..
Now I just ignore the belt issue, I'm using the $6 eBay belt (from Florida) on both of mine and after a few dozen hours of use they seem very well behaved, no shedding or other untoward behavior and they get no noisier over time.. My tables are both really good sounding IMNSHO. 😀
I'm so thrilled with mine I am now restoring another.. 😀 It played upstairs at today's audiofest whilst my 124/II covered the downstairs..
I've agreed to take on another for someone I know locally..
Now I just ignore the belt issue, I'm using the $6 eBay belt (from Florida) on both of mine and after a few dozen hours of use they seem very well behaved, no shedding or other untoward behavior and they get no noisier over time.. My tables are both really good sounding IMNSHO. 😀
Td 124
Kev, I will keep the cheapo belt in mind, when I need a new one,
Restoring another for you, for a friend, or two?
My unit is awsome also, just need to get rid of the junky SME 3012 I got with it.
Kev, I will keep the cheapo belt in mind, when I need a new one,
Restoring another for you, for a friend, or two?
My unit is awsome also, just need to get rid of the junky SME 3012 I got with it.
I now own two, one fully restored and the other which was a basket case is now running well, still missing a few important parts - it runs as an improved TD-121 until I can find the last few parts to make it whole.. (Just missing the speed change hardware under the knob.)
I'm also going to restore another one for a fellow locally as time permits.
I'm also going to restore another one for a fellow locally as time permits.
Rumble measurement TD124 Mk1 and motor decoupling
Hello Kevin and others,
To see how much difference it makes to an older Mk1 ser.nr.17574 in rumble in the original condition and after motor revision and with the new Mk2 motor
decoupling I made two FFT vibration measurements on the chassis near the arm board.
In original condition this turntable had a lot 100 Hz motor vibration clearly
audible during play and visible on the plot.
Further there is noise from the steppulley bearing visible this can be improved further.
Hello Kevin and others,
To see how much difference it makes to an older Mk1 ser.nr.17574 in rumble in the original condition and after motor revision and with the new Mk2 motor
decoupling I made two FFT vibration measurements on the chassis near the arm board.
In original condition this turntable had a lot 100 Hz motor vibration clearly
audible during play and visible on the plot.
Further there is noise from the steppulley bearing visible this can be improved further.
still no "BIG DOG" tables...
and I may never actually get one 🙁 ...tough econoic times and all, so if any have a junk TD124 or similar, send 'er to me ('tis the season and all)
All idler wheels (whether the Thorens belt/idler systems or a "pure" idler) seem to have a particular flaw that hasn't really be mentioned in any threads that I have seen (here and elsewhere):
Regarding the above:
Please know that I am an idler fan, and I have a couple of beaters that I like the sound of. The points above are not Thorens idler specific, but I think hit upon a weakness of all idlers. I find it hard to believe that the removal of springs from the complete system (arm, suspension, etc) wouldn't result in a better sound. Also find it hard to believe no one seems to have tried that.
and I may never actually get one 🙁 ...tough econoic times and all, so if any have a junk TD124 or similar, send 'er to me ('tis the season and all)
All idler wheels (whether the Thorens belt/idler systems or a "pure" idler) seem to have a particular flaw that hasn't really be mentioned in any threads that I have seen (here and elsewhere):
- The idler wheel itself.
- The use of springs in any turntable system or parts.
Regarding the above:
- No idler wheels that I am aware of use bearings rather than bushings in the idlers. They must be quieter than bushings. Comments?
- Springs in all systems vibrate at some (inherent) frequency. The removal of conventional springs should reduce or eliminate any ringing that may occur. Comments?
Please know that I am an idler fan, and I have a couple of beaters that I like the sound of. The points above are not Thorens idler specific, but I think hit upon a weakness of all idlers. I find it hard to believe that the removal of springs from the complete system (arm, suspension, etc) wouldn't result in a better sound. Also find it hard to believe no one seems to have tried that.
dampening springs
I can see where the use of felt wicks can help (sometimes coil suspension springs in turntables have foam inserts), but it's not dampening the springs I guess that is the concern. It is the "ringing" that can occur.
For example: many folks have removed the antiskating spring as used on Rega tonearms (and others as well) in favour of a simple weight, or no anti-skating at all. There is a claimed improvement in sound. (Even cutting off the finger lift on a Rega arm is supposed to have a positive impact on the sound). This is not intended as a criticism of Rega arms, more so an example of what removing a spring in a critical sub-system of a turntable can do. I know of one turntable tuner that removes the idler wheel tension spring. The tension can be applied via a mass or a lever to move the idler into the correct location. Again, I have not personally verified this, but someone that I know has and reports excellent results. There are also others that replace coil springs with rubber bands (as per Pedersen mods for the Michelle turntables, while others use a rubber "tube" or heater hose as per user510. One of the quietest and most effective suspensions I have ever heard has been elevating a sub-chassis using Sorbothane domes.
I can see where the use of felt wicks can help (sometimes coil suspension springs in turntables have foam inserts), but it's not dampening the springs I guess that is the concern. It is the "ringing" that can occur.
For example: many folks have removed the antiskating spring as used on Rega tonearms (and others as well) in favour of a simple weight, or no anti-skating at all. There is a claimed improvement in sound. (Even cutting off the finger lift on a Rega arm is supposed to have a positive impact on the sound). This is not intended as a criticism of Rega arms, more so an example of what removing a spring in a critical sub-system of a turntable can do. I know of one turntable tuner that removes the idler wheel tension spring. The tension can be applied via a mass or a lever to move the idler into the correct location. Again, I have not personally verified this, but someone that I know has and reports excellent results. There are also others that replace coil springs with rubber bands (as per Pedersen mods for the Michelle turntables, while others use a rubber "tube" or heater hose as per user510. One of the quietest and most effective suspensions I have ever heard has been elevating a sub-chassis using Sorbothane domes.