also have to say ...
my experience is that every time you find something really great, it is mostly only great in relation to your own special setup
sorry to say Stevie, but it is a common trap we all frequently fall into
Yup, you could be right. I didn't need a tweeter Zobel with a cone tweeter till I added an L-pad attenuator to get the levels right. But then I needed it badly. 😡
John DeVore said this about the 3-way Gibbon 7.1:
You can see I am mostly reading John DeVore ATM, to pursue my own particular interests. 🙂
BTW, Zobels aren't snake oil. They have a MEASUREABLE effect. 😉
I am not aware somebody stated that... I would not dare to make such a statement 😉
but:
is imho very likely to be snake oil.. the original topic, i presume 😀presscot said:
All I need now is to find alternative uses for snake oil... i hope it is eco-friendly..
I can't believe what I'm reading...
Which is the difference between a capacitive sound, and a resistive one?
Regular amps don't like driving capacitative loads. They overshoot and ring if I remember. The Quad electrostatic speaker, which is a capacitative sort of panel, was quite difficult for some amplifiers. They generally don't mind driving partly inductive loads at all.
Somewhere deep in the theory of reflex bass, the phase angle can approach a capacitative nature, but I'm a bit vague on that.
Back on topic, I just roughly worked out the stray capacitance between a typical 3.3uF polypropylene cap and an earth plane 1mm away.
Parallel Plate Capacitor Capacitance Calculator
It's somewhere between 1 and 10 puffs. Not much to worry about at audio frequencies, since, as you may know, a pF is a millionth of a uF. 😎
Now back to tweeter Zobels. Any more thoughts? 😀
Somewhere deep in the theory of reflex bass, the phase angle can approach a capacitative nature, but I'm a bit vague on that.
Back on topic, I just roughly worked out the stray capacitance between a typical 3.3uF polypropylene cap and an earth plane 1mm away.
Parallel Plate Capacitor Capacitance Calculator
It's somewhere between 1 and 10 puffs. Not much to worry about at audio frequencies, since, as you may know, a pF is a millionth of a uF. 😎
Now back to tweeter Zobels. Any more thoughts? 😀
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A 1pF to ground has a susceptance of .1256µmhos at 20kHz, sufficient to make any amp to explode, ja ja ja.... :-D
that is not the topic, is it ?
I thought the topic was about the order of how components are positioned 😕
apart from the snake oil claim ofcourse
Yes, but I just settled that one for all time. IMO... 😀
Except for the radio frequency aspects, of course.
We had a similar topic not long ago. We decided the most important thing was the crossover looked pretty, and you could read all the component values easily. Everyone enjoyed that one. 😱
I feel we are free to digress and waffle now. Hardly worse than what Cal Weldon is currently doing to the sealed box thread.
Except for the radio frequency aspects, of course.
We had a similar topic not long ago. We decided the most important thing was the crossover looked pretty, and you could read all the component values easily. Everyone enjoyed that one. 😱
I feel we are free to digress and waffle now. Hardly worse than what Cal Weldon is currently doing to the sealed box thread.
Steve is right. I went way off base there. That's why I asked the OP if he wanted me to move the posts. He said no, he was enjoying it. Hey we all make mistakes right Steve?
Do the simplest circuit analysis, you know, Kirchoff, Tevanin, all that stuff we did in 1st year tech.
Now demonstrate the difference between CR and RC in ANY circuit!
Now demonstrate the difference between CR and RC in ANY circuit!
Maybe we can say the same thing (I'm no tech...) about several other things, in the domains of the Art/Science itself, like the, e.g. Cascade Bypassing, etc.
Many members come here to diyAudio asking if they can substitute a/several caps with one cap, and why (or why not??). The answer sometimes for that reason (of cascading) is that the manufacturer run out of the single cap-component-correct-value. 😀 😀
(To note the title of the article)
Bypassing
Sorry but you are absolutely wrong.
Ground planes are required for radio frequencies. Star earthing is good for DC and where there is absolutely NO RF signals.
A fair point, well made. It's a while since I've done that stuff. We are mixing with the real engineers here, I can tell. 😀
But is star earthing on the crossover board a good technique for loudspeaker crossovers? Which means that all the returns go to a compact central point. Does it matter? I always try and avoid a bird's nest approach at least. 😱
On Inductor's comment, you would probably know if I am right in thinking that paralleling different types of capacitors is fairly standard at radio frequencies to reduce ESL and resonances.
We can talk about this because the original Zobel question has been clarified, I think. The order of the components makes no significant difference, at audio frequencies at least.
1st year tech usually omits the effect of parasitic components, such as stray capacitance. Fortunately, in audio they rarely matter but sometimes they do. This is because any audio circuit still does something at higher frequencies, and that 'something' may be affected by parasitic components. That 'something' may affect how the circuit behaves for audio frequencies.cliffforrest said:
So to go back to the original question, the order CR or RC might matter but definitely not for the reason suggested! If the order does matter then this is probably a sign that the amplifier has HF stability problems.
This fits with the premise that a change in sound when changing a component type probably confirms that at least one version is mis-behaving.
It was Cordell and maybe others (Baxandall?), that said all behaving amplifiers with the same passband and all clear of clipping will generally sound the same.
It's the performance during mis-behaving that leads to output changes and thus sound changes.
It might be better to turn the question the other way around and ask "Is there any such thing as a perfect amplifier?"
Mike
Maybe you are the one "mis_behaving" . Try some DBT next time with matched levels and not driven into clipping.
You know that and I know that, but the context of the OP is:
"I've heard that the component's placement would affect to the sound in the sense that the sound would received the characteristic from a component which placed near the negative side."
I think it is better to get folks, especially beginners, thinking correctly about 1st order effects, and then perhaps introduce the more complex later.
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