I like the 'original recipe' sound resistors, hmmm Theyre fingerlickin' good. extra crispy is just too crunchier sounding.
thin film Vs thick films... i'll take a bucket of the thick, passivated of coarse
thin film Vs thick films... i'll take a bucket of the thick, passivated of coarse
They sound like resistors. 🙂
I have used them in "critical" or sensitive positions in my preamp and phono pre, and have no complaints.
I really don't know what this post means. I suspect it is a school yard taunt about my equipment and its value. That confirms my reference to children posting here.
If Jacco had ever heard a MyRef amp, he would realize it's much more than a $5 chip. I have owned a dozen multiple-thousand dollar tube and SS amps, and I now use the MyRef's because they sound better than any of those others.
Yes, some of the resistors and other passive parts are pretty exotic. I could clearly hear the contribution almost every time I made an upgrade. If I couldn't hear an improvement, the part was rejected, no matter how much it cost. To me, there is only a slight correlation between cost and quality of sound, but I accept that some parts sound better than others despite their equivalent measurements or construction. I do not believe in fairy dust or magical properties. However, you cannot properly judge the sound of an amplifier, or any other component, by specifications alone.
If you enjoy the technical aspects of designing and building audio equipment, that should be sufficient reward, and we're happy and grateful to read about it. If you do not also value the quality of sound that equipment produces rather than just its specifications, you should probably stay away from threads like this rather than trivializing them with your nonsense and "funny" posts. It is not fun when you pervert the purpose of this forum, and I cannot believe the moderators allow it to continue. Why should hobbyists visit this site to read your banal "thoughts" about chicken? Will any of you be proud to come back in a month to read your silliness?
I have considered making a financial contribution to this site in the past, but if this crap is what passes for constructive dialog here, forget that.
Peace,
Tom E
"I have considered making a financial contribution to this site in the past, but if this crap is what passes for constructive dialog here, forget that."
OK. Shut the door behind you when you leave, please.
OK. Shut the door behind you when you leave, please.
These DALE resistors appear to be what Ed Simon might recommend. Dale is good, these resistors appear to be even better than typical Dale. I use Dale, you should too!
Jacco a school yard taunter? Not at all. He just has a good, if slightly warped sense of humour.
For me I must be daft as I paid $65 for just a PCB. Can't get much more passive than that. Except of course they really do matter 🙂
For me I must be daft as I paid $65 for just a PCB. Can't get much more passive than that. Except of course they really do matter 🙂
There's nothing wrong with the LM3886, I've got 3 in each of my speakers. There is also no doubt that they benefit from a good PS and layout (decoupling and whatnot), and passive components play a role there. I am not convinced that particular brands or types of passives have much impact, compared to their correct use, but if a particular resistor brings your wife running from the kitchen, then knock yourself out.
No that is not an extra watt. The values shift over time if you run them above spec. $2 ea or so 1/8W 5PPM Tempco.
These came out a bit after the article. Very good units. Don't tell anyone about them. Better than many more expensive ones.
PTF56 is 1/8W, PTF65 is 1/4W. And yes, very affordable. I would not try to operate them outside their rated power and expect rated performance.
Hi madisonears,
Of course every discussion will see the odd child, but the damage they do is limited by how you react to them. We all will tend to become that child as we age now and again.
Now, what do you think the natural tendency is when a conversation stalls? Even then, good information still comes out.
-Chris
Most threads begin and end much more quickly. Once a thread grows to this size, people do tend to be comfortable enough to pass along a quip now and then. This happens when engineers meet person to person as well. Learn to relax a little, and sometimes even laugh at comments made at your expense. It's a form of fun, or poking someone who is too serious.
Of course every discussion will see the odd child, but the damage they do is limited by how you react to them. We all will tend to become that child as we age now and again.
Now, what do you think the natural tendency is when a conversation stalls? Even then, good information still comes out.
-Chris
Afraid I was never allowed to wear shorts in my childhood days, but thanks for allowing me another go at it.
Personally speaking, anyone who enjoys audio and music receives my esteem, the audio electronics itch is a lonely one as is.
Makes no difference to me whether it's solid state, integrated circuits, or valve gear. Same hobby, different flavor.
(monetary equivalents score lowest on my prestige list, be it equipment or otherwise, btw. I'm more the oldfashioned set of values, moral principles preacher who will go straight to hell anyway, and deservedly so)
Hi Jan:
You didn't mention power dissipation in your list of requirements; if you had indicated anything >.25W I would not have mentioned the PTF series. You also did not mention the values you need; they are not available in very low nor very high values. (I was considering them for degeneration resistors in my Salas "folded simplsitic RIAA", but they are not available <10R which was what I needed.)
I think to get that kind of precision + TempCo plus >=.5W dissipation you would need either thin film or wirewound, or special order ($$$). I think it would be worth the experiment to push a PTF65 to a higher dissipation, maybe with a clip-on heatsink, and see how it performs, but I assume that if it would meet its specs at >.25W then Vishay would rate it as such. OTOH you have clearly read and understood the datasheet and you likely have more experience with these things than I do.
My take
So I have been following this thread for a while, and watching the back-and-forth (and false dichotomies), and it has given me the opportunity to formulate my own thoughts on the subject. There is no reason for anyone to attach any import to my opinions, but then some much bigger gas-bags than me got to have their say, so WTH...
There are many types of DIYers (subcategory audio), which I will roughly divide into 3 groups:
1. Those smart and educated enough to actually design circuits, and who actually build and measure them (and hopefully share the designs with others). (I consider listening a form of measurement.)
2. Those, like me, who design nothing but like building stuff. Some like "dead bug" or protoboard builds, some like a nice PCB to work from; some like kits that contain everything down to knobs and switches, some like nothing but a schematic.
3. Part-swappers.
I think most members here fall into category 2, and we benefit from the efforts of those in category 1. So when we start a new project/build we typically get in on a group-buy for a PCB for some circuit someone else has designed. There is usually a BOM, which might be quite simple ("all resistors 1/4W 1% metal film except where noted") or detailed and ready to upload to DigiKey or Mouser complete with part numbers and alternates.
Part of the fun of this hobby for people like me is parts selection. I can't imagine what it was like in the Dark Ages, before Mouser and Digikey and others were on line, and you had to leaf through paper catalogues (f you could get them) and send off paper orders via snail mail, and did not have instant access to data sheets! Even worse, you might have had to rely on a local electronics parts retailer, which in most places either didn't exist or was Radio Shack.
Anyway, now I can look at a schematic and a BOM, then go to a web site, and choose from among dozens or even hundreds of parts for a given position. And since I can choose, why would I choose anything but the "best"? I'm not trying to make a profit, I'm building this for my own enjoyment, and I never want to wonder "What if I had used a 'better' part in that position? Did I sell my build short by using a cheap part?"
Of course, this assumes that there is a metric by which some part can be considered "best" or at least "better than average". Among resistors we have metrics like tolerance and temperature coefficient (assuming resistance and power dissipation are already specified in the BOM). Now, for most uses, does tolerance matter? Even for channel-to-channel matching, how accurate (or precise) do resistor values need to be? For most positions I doubt tolerance <5% is needed to meet audibility requirements, but I have been known to buy 0.1% parts for certain applications, simply because I could. Likewise tempco, I would not buy <50ppm parts for every position, but there are applications where I will happily fork out for low tempco devices, even when there is no obvious requirement to do so (if temperature is stable why worry about tempco?). I have, to my shame, bought and used some semi-expensive snake-oil capacitors for use in a position where the designer of the circuit said it would be good to use "boutique" capacitors. What can I say? It was in the spirit of the build.
So for me it's about pride of ownership ("Yeah, it's a beautiful circuit, and I used kick-a$$ components to build it!"), freedom from nagging doubt, and the fun of picking parts that I think would be best for a given position in a circuit. But I have never convinced myself that using a $15 Z-foil (which I have bought and used) vs a $3 PTF or other good quality resistor would automatically result in a "better" or "different" sound.
Is that inconsistent or foolish? Likely, yes, but I don't care, because I did it for the fun of it. I don't need to delude myself about magical qualities -- everything I need to know about a Z-foil is on the data sheet, and if I used one and it sounded "bad" I would happily throw it away.
Then there are the part-swappers, whose whole DIY experience seems to consist of buying a device and swapping parts, rolling op-amps, rolling tubes, changing capacitors, changing resistors, changing wire, but never with an apparent goal or method in mind. Those folks seem determined to attach particular sonic "signatures" to particular brands or types of active devices or passive components, even though they almost never have the tools or ability to actually measure the result, or check whether their new opamp is oscillating.
The part-swappers tend to collate their "results" and contribute to a pool of arcane knowledge. When rational folks, or even silly folks like me who don't take this stuff too seriously, question their results or their bank of knowledge ("silver sounds bright") they get their backs up, claim we are attacking them, and demand that the "attackers" be made to be quiet so they can compare notes in peace.
So I have been following this thread for a while, and watching the back-and-forth (and false dichotomies), and it has given me the opportunity to formulate my own thoughts on the subject. There is no reason for anyone to attach any import to my opinions, but then some much bigger gas-bags than me got to have their say, so WTH...
There are many types of DIYers (subcategory audio), which I will roughly divide into 3 groups:
1. Those smart and educated enough to actually design circuits, and who actually build and measure them (and hopefully share the designs with others). (I consider listening a form of measurement.)
2. Those, like me, who design nothing but like building stuff. Some like "dead bug" or protoboard builds, some like a nice PCB to work from; some like kits that contain everything down to knobs and switches, some like nothing but a schematic.
3. Part-swappers.
I think most members here fall into category 2, and we benefit from the efforts of those in category 1. So when we start a new project/build we typically get in on a group-buy for a PCB for some circuit someone else has designed. There is usually a BOM, which might be quite simple ("all resistors 1/4W 1% metal film except where noted") or detailed and ready to upload to DigiKey or Mouser complete with part numbers and alternates.
Part of the fun of this hobby for people like me is parts selection. I can't imagine what it was like in the Dark Ages, before Mouser and Digikey and others were on line, and you had to leaf through paper catalogues (f you could get them) and send off paper orders via snail mail, and did not have instant access to data sheets! Even worse, you might have had to rely on a local electronics parts retailer, which in most places either didn't exist or was Radio Shack.
Anyway, now I can look at a schematic and a BOM, then go to a web site, and choose from among dozens or even hundreds of parts for a given position. And since I can choose, why would I choose anything but the "best"? I'm not trying to make a profit, I'm building this for my own enjoyment, and I never want to wonder "What if I had used a 'better' part in that position? Did I sell my build short by using a cheap part?"
Of course, this assumes that there is a metric by which some part can be considered "best" or at least "better than average". Among resistors we have metrics like tolerance and temperature coefficient (assuming resistance and power dissipation are already specified in the BOM). Now, for most uses, does tolerance matter? Even for channel-to-channel matching, how accurate (or precise) do resistor values need to be? For most positions I doubt tolerance <5% is needed to meet audibility requirements, but I have been known to buy 0.1% parts for certain applications, simply because I could. Likewise tempco, I would not buy <50ppm parts for every position, but there are applications where I will happily fork out for low tempco devices, even when there is no obvious requirement to do so (if temperature is stable why worry about tempco?). I have, to my shame, bought and used some semi-expensive snake-oil capacitors for use in a position where the designer of the circuit said it would be good to use "boutique" capacitors. What can I say? It was in the spirit of the build.
So for me it's about pride of ownership ("Yeah, it's a beautiful circuit, and I used kick-a$$ components to build it!"), freedom from nagging doubt, and the fun of picking parts that I think would be best for a given position in a circuit. But I have never convinced myself that using a $15 Z-foil (which I have bought and used) vs a $3 PTF or other good quality resistor would automatically result in a "better" or "different" sound.
Is that inconsistent or foolish? Likely, yes, but I don't care, because I did it for the fun of it. I don't need to delude myself about magical qualities -- everything I need to know about a Z-foil is on the data sheet, and if I used one and it sounded "bad" I would happily throw it away.
Then there are the part-swappers, whose whole DIY experience seems to consist of buying a device and swapping parts, rolling op-amps, rolling tubes, changing capacitors, changing resistors, changing wire, but never with an apparent goal or method in mind. Those folks seem determined to attach particular sonic "signatures" to particular brands or types of active devices or passive components, even though they almost never have the tools or ability to actually measure the result, or check whether their new opamp is oscillating.
The part-swappers tend to collate their "results" and contribute to a pool of arcane knowledge. When rational folks, or even silly folks like me who don't take this stuff too seriously, question their results or their bank of knowledge ("silver sounds bright") they get their backs up, claim we are attacking them, and demand that the "attackers" be made to be quiet so they can compare notes in peace.
discuss various subcategories of "the part swappers" going all the way to extremes of guys not knowing bout circuits and not caring to start at the ground floor ( to do the hard work of learning and then using test gear) yet using the all the buzz words and thinking the're the ones "inventing profound thingys" by placing caps and other parts with more interesting or exciting" type parts willy nilly. "hey look at me, I'm important I'm inventing". The last thing they want to hear is "but have you thought about this or that is being done more like this over here"!!
example> a chip amp guy using ulta fast rectifiers were they're not needed and then discovering snubbers are indeed useful to make it sound better. only if they left it alone it would of sounded better in the 1st place.
example> a chip amp guy using ulta fast rectifiers were they're not needed and then discovering snubbers are indeed useful to make it sound better. only if they left it alone it would of sounded better in the 1st place.
You're describing what I (and definitely TONS ohters) have been doing, in my case from 1969 until even today, although in the last 15/20 years data has been more end more available online.
As a comparison, most colleagues building Guitar Amps typically got their hands on *one* popular/good selling amp, think a Peavey/Marshall/Fender/etc. , lifted the circuit with pen and paper, some even *literally* copied the PCB, one classic trick was to depopulate it and take a same size X Ray plate,then use it as a silk screen mask , no kidding, the other was to hand copy it on tracing paper which allowed some editing.
BIG problem: they had to get the *exact* same parts, period, so if not available, they had to find some friendly Air Hostess or similar who could source the locally unavailable parts from USA ... a mess.
I remember one colleague who copied a PA mixer, which used uA739 dual Op Amps, and he had to send the proverbial Hostess to get them in USA because they have non standard pinout and were not locally available.
Me? .... I went to local Distributors, asked them what good low noise Op Amp they had available, and came home with photocopies of the Datasheet and a truckload of RC4558 which then I used for ages.
I suggested my friend to redraw the PCB and use these instead, he looked at me as if I was crazy, a heretic, defying the Gods which "must have had a good reason to use 739 instead of 4558" and that anyway "the input pin order inversion (the only pinout difference) might wreak havoc with signal flow" or some similar nonsense.
Since then, I first visit distributors to check what is available now and in the future, and in quantity, reasonable price is also a factor, and then proceed to design around them, on a clean sheet of paper.
Some 14000/15000 amps later, I might say that the process works 🙂
And that delaying/stopping production because of some imagined or perceived, yet unmeasurable and unhearable possible "difference" would be sheer madness.
Of course, others might have different priorities.
If you build/mod "just one" and don't need to sell it, to boot you can sink a sizable amount of money on it and that makes you happy, please be my guest.
Just don't preach I should do the same 😉
In these dark ages I was a kid living in the sticks and still I could manage to order records from overseas and have dialogues and exchange with other collectors around the globe. It worked, it took more effort but it also was a richer experience and created some nice bonds.
Prices were lower as well, as it was impossible for some kid who saw some record in some documentary to order that off discogs. You needed to be "in the scene". 😉
nezbleu well put ! I'm type 2 with the right touch of 3
but I thinks that there is other two type and sub mix
1) music lovers ie that diy only for enjoy
2) electronics/lab lovers that ear music with tektronix
but I thinks that there is other two type and sub mix
1) music lovers ie that diy only for enjoy
2) electronics/lab lovers that ear music with tektronix
Ed, Nezbleu, yes I realized that after studying the data sheet a bit more. I think if I allow delta-T of 50C I can run the largest one at .625W.
This should be OK as the peak dissipation is 0.5W and this is not at all continuous.
Jan
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