Another option is the Ortofon Red or Blue, $100 and $225. That table and arm would still be well served with a more expensive cartridge in the future.
I haven't heard the Denon, but it also has a reputation of being a "giant killer".
You want to have your dealer install it and set it up for you, unless you have the tools and can afford to experiment. This usually costs more than having a dealer set it up for you, and it doesn't sound like you want to waste any money "learning the hard way".
When you consider your budget, it sounds like your goal is to have a reasonable mid-high fi system, that with smartly chosen components, sounds better than it should at it's price point. While this is very possible (and fun) ...don't expect it to rival gear that is at the next level in terms of resolution. Enjoy the process of listening, learning and evolving your system.
I haven't heard the Denon, but it also has a reputation of being a "giant killer".
You want to have your dealer install it and set it up for you, unless you have the tools and can afford to experiment. This usually costs more than having a dealer set it up for you, and it doesn't sound like you want to waste any money "learning the hard way".
When you consider your budget, it sounds like your goal is to have a reasonable mid-high fi system, that with smartly chosen components, sounds better than it should at it's price point. While this is very possible (and fun) ...don't expect it to rival gear that is at the next level in terms of resolution. Enjoy the process of listening, learning and evolving your system.
The DL-103 is a low-output moving coil, which means that you might not have the ability to use it in your existing system. Do make sure you can use a .3mv cartridge before ordering it! It is a very well regarded cartridge.
I recently bought a DL-110 high-output MC for my Planar25 and love it. It's very synergistic with the Rega, a case of 'better than the sum of the parts'. Don't let the inexpensive price put you off -- it's very, very good. Denon has made the same cartridges for many years. They have a good thing going, and know that they don't need to change the recipe!
I recently bought a DL-110 high-output MC for my Planar25 and love it. It's very synergistic with the Rega, a case of 'better than the sum of the parts'. Don't let the inexpensive price put you off -- it's very, very good. Denon has made the same cartridges for many years. They have a good thing going, and know that they don't need to change the recipe!
6L6 has it dead on.
RJ,
the matchup of the Denon 103 to the RB 250/300 is one that many folks have adopted. The cartridge is one of the longest productions in audio ever (I think it stated in 1963 or something like that). It is a known quantity. I cannot state this for a fact, but one of these may have been the original type Roy Gandi of Rega (or one of his employees) used to "voice" or test the RB300 to begin with.
The DL110 is a great buy as well. Neither would kill off your budget (DL103= USD $230, DL110=$USD $140). I'd be happy with either as I do have a dedicated, adjustable phono stage.
RJ,
the matchup of the Denon 103 to the RB 250/300 is one that many folks have adopted. The cartridge is one of the longest productions in audio ever (I think it stated in 1963 or something like that). It is a known quantity. I cannot state this for a fact, but one of these may have been the original type Roy Gandi of Rega (or one of his employees) used to "voice" or test the RB300 to begin with.
The DL110 is a great buy as well. Neither would kill off your budget (DL103= USD $230, DL110=$USD $140). I'd be happy with either as I do have a dedicated, adjustable phono stage.
I use a DL103R on a Rega 250 arm, that is until I built an Audiomods arm. You need to add some weight to help with the low compliance of the cartridge. Thus -
Re-body the Denon with an aluminium or wooden body and you've got a giant killing front end! My new body is in the post as a type.
Re-body the Denon with an aluminium or wooden body and you've got a giant killing front end! My new body is in the post as a type.
Looks good (bet it sounds good too!)
fasterbyelan: I know lots have used this arm/cart combo. The RB303 is supposed to be superior to the RB300, so I'm "assuming" it's superior to the RB250. Wonder if there is a RB253 in the works🙂 (but perhaps not).
RJ, I think the standard DL 103 would be more than suitable. I know I'd like to have one (but I am a fan of the "Grado" sound).
fasterbyelan: I know lots have used this arm/cart combo. The RB303 is supposed to be superior to the RB300, so I'm "assuming" it's superior to the RB250. Wonder if there is a RB253 in the works🙂 (but perhaps not).
RJ, I think the standard DL 103 would be more than suitable. I know I'd like to have one (but I am a fan of the "Grado" sound).
The Audiomods uses the RB250 arm as the bearing are bigger than the other Rega models. I believe that the RB251 is the lastest version in the 250 range. For those interested,the Audiomods web site has some excellent info regarding the modifications carried out and why - see here
...another good mod site, which does away with unproductive/negligable mods and focuses on what works best is: Audio Origami - ReWires
...however, much can be done by yourself..., regarding the RP3....
...however, much can be done by yourself..., regarding the RP3....
The Ortofon serie's was mentioned when i spoke to a dealer about it also. He recommended the bronze as the "ultimate" / popular cart for this player, but said that for my budget i should look at the blue or red ( cant remember which one ).
Does this sound about right and would they be a safer option than the Denon.
Also, is it pretty standard for the dealer to install the cart for you if you buy the player and cart from them? Do they usually charge for that? And if so, how much should is reasonable?
This part interest me, as i have read it somewhere but don't quite get what it means. Is this in regards to the amp being capable, or the speakers. or the turntable?
I currently have a very very modest amp. a Sherwood S2620 CP which is a hand me down from my Dad. The speakers are also modest, Wharfdale Lintons. Is it pointless me investing some bonus cash onto a good quality cart , as my other equipment wont be "smart" enough to respond to it? Am i possibly better off doing this when i get the new amp in the unforseen future and , and just getting a Orton Red or something a little more budget in the meantime?
Also how can i find out what cart will be best suited for me in regards to the output - high or low? Is this based on the turntable or the amp - or both?
I like the sound of the Denon, but a little concerned that it is a combination that requires someone with more idea on how to set it up to get the most out of, and it may be a bit "fiddley".Or is it a case of, once it is set - its set for life?
I like the reputation the Denon has of punching above its weight, being comparable to something much more highly regarded - a reputation which is shared of of RP 3. I am a bit worried about the Hig / lowoutput though, as i don't want to spend another $200 on a cart that i wont get any bonus quality out of until i upgrade the rest of my equipment.
Thanks to everyone SO MUCH for all the advice and time. You have no idea how much easier you have made things for me. I actually feel educated about all this stuff and the difference with how the dealers treated me when i could actually hold ( and understand ) and genuine comversatiion about the performance benefits of the equipment. You get treatedso definitely once this is evident and i feel so much more confident i am making the right decision
I can almost smell that bloody turntable, all i need to do is sort out this cart and i am OFF!!!
THANK YOU🙂
I use a DL103R on a Rega 250 arm, that is until I built an Audiomods arm. You need to add some weight to help with the low compliance of the cartridge. Thus -
Re-body the Denon with an aluminium or wooden body and you've got a giant killing front end! My new body is in the post as a type.
This ewnt way over my head but has got me intrigued? Does this involve doing some fairly intricate and involved mods to the arm? do you think its i necessary to get the desired results out of that cart with the RB303 tonearm?
If you mean the replacement body the only mod is to the cartridge. There is some good details here on the Lenco web site.
Having started with a Rega RB250 arm and the Denon 103R, the Audiomods arm was a significant move up sound wise. It certainly extracts the best out of the cartridge (and is probably capable of using a high-end cartridge). My main concern over the Denon is that its dynamics are not in the same league as say a Lyra cartridge but this is an unfair comparison as the Denon is 1/3 the price! Word on the street is that the metal body should overcome this. The manufacture Zu supply a similar product with the cartridge already fitted.
If you are interested, the turntable I have made is here. There is more comments there on components than I have time to repeat here! One final point, the Denon is the first cartridge I have had to set up (I used a linear track TT with a plug and play cartridge before). I would say that the Denon is a good cartridge to start with as it is forgiving with the finer points of setting up. This view point may be due to my limited knowledge but if the sound I'm getting is anything to go by, I don't think so!
Regards,
I took a look at your Amp, and it does not have provisions for a low-output moving coil. To answer your question, it's an Amp (well, preamp, but a receiver does both functions) capability. If you were to go with a DL-103, you would need a MC transformer, which can be done DIY, but still cost about $220 or so in parts. Plus shipping to OZ. 😱
As to the Mods to a DL-103, there is no doubt that many people have done some neat things to the cart, and by most accounts the wood bodies are a huge improvement. But they are expensive, and you risk fatally damaging your cartridge during the modification process.
The tonearm weight that you see above is in response to the fact that the suspension on the DL-103 is made for an arm much heavier than a Rega. So people get headshell weights and bigger counterweights to increase the mass and moment of the arm. I have never read an account of someone who has done this to a DL-103/Rega combo who hasn't thought it was a great improvement. But you are talking about more money again.
So you can buy the DL-103, and then a MC transformer. That would be the minimum you need to get it to work.
To get it set up optimally on the tonearm you need a big counterweight and a headshell weight.
And then you might as well get a wood body, to get the last bit of awesome out of the cart.
This would be a very, very nice setup. No doubt at all. But you will have added another $400-500 to your deck. For that kind of money you can buy an awesome cart that has a normal compliance suited to the Rega.
Anyway, my suggestion for you is this --
Get a Denon DL-110
or an Ortofon 2M Blue (Totally worth the extra $ up from a Red)
Either of those carts are great, they will do what you are after - play music and sound great!
And then go buy a bunch of records. You will be much more happy purchasing music than turntable bits.
.
(By the way, in my many years with my Planar25 (I got it the first year available) I have owned various carts -- Grado, Ortofon X5-MC, Denon DL-110, Linn K9, Rega Elys, Dynavector 10X4, and Shure V15vXmr. I have borrowed a few not on this list as well. My preference is very strong for the Denon and the Dynavector. I liked the Rega and Grado the least.)
As to the Mods to a DL-103, there is no doubt that many people have done some neat things to the cart, and by most accounts the wood bodies are a huge improvement. But they are expensive, and you risk fatally damaging your cartridge during the modification process.
The tonearm weight that you see above is in response to the fact that the suspension on the DL-103 is made for an arm much heavier than a Rega. So people get headshell weights and bigger counterweights to increase the mass and moment of the arm. I have never read an account of someone who has done this to a DL-103/Rega combo who hasn't thought it was a great improvement. But you are talking about more money again.
So you can buy the DL-103, and then a MC transformer. That would be the minimum you need to get it to work.
To get it set up optimally on the tonearm you need a big counterweight and a headshell weight.
And then you might as well get a wood body, to get the last bit of awesome out of the cart.
This would be a very, very nice setup. No doubt at all. But you will have added another $400-500 to your deck. For that kind of money you can buy an awesome cart that has a normal compliance suited to the Rega.
Anyway, my suggestion for you is this --
Get a Denon DL-110
or an Ortofon 2M Blue (Totally worth the extra $ up from a Red)
Either of those carts are great, they will do what you are after - play music and sound great!
And then go buy a bunch of records. You will be much more happy purchasing music than turntable bits.
.
(By the way, in my many years with my Planar25 (I got it the first year available) I have owned various carts -- Grado, Ortofon X5-MC, Denon DL-110, Linn K9, Rega Elys, Dynavector 10X4, and Shure V15vXmr. I have borrowed a few not on this list as well. My preference is very strong for the Denon and the Dynavector. I liked the Rega and Grado the least.)
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RJ: Audiomods...
at this point just get the table and cartridge. If your dealer can supply a Denon DL-110 or one of the Ortofons moving magnet (MM) or high output moving coils (HO-MC), then stay with that. The time for looking at the Audiomods upgrades and pieces (or similar) should be a long way off.
Rather than grow your turntable budget, get the RP3 with cartridge from your dealer. Everything else follows that. Then ask if you can watch the table being setup. This can be very instructional. At the least it may convince you that you can manage to do it in the future if you change cartridges, or that you can't. Some dealers may not want to install the cartridge in front of you, so if not there are videos "out there " to teach you how to do this.
The Wharfedale Lintons ar not the weakest link in your system, it's the receiver. A couple of options I would suggest:
Once the amplification is completed, then look at some speakers, again used are fine. Or if you get a little ambitious make yourself a pair. Excellent full-range drivers are available. Look at Mark Audio, Fostex, Tangband, and Merrill. All of these should be readily available. Find a friend or family member to help out (if need be) constructing and finishing the enclosures (plans are all over the place, check out planet10's box library for a start. As long a you are not expecting to break your lease by playing too loud, small floor standing ( or some stand mounted) fullrange loudspeakers can be very good and can generate more than enough bass to satisfy the most extreme bassheads. The enclosures themselves, if you or a friend or family member can build them will cost little, but will soung good. Just use good quality materials for the boxes🙂 .
at this point just get the table and cartridge. If your dealer can supply a Denon DL-110 or one of the Ortofons moving magnet (MM) or high output moving coils (HO-MC), then stay with that. The time for looking at the Audiomods upgrades and pieces (or similar) should be a long way off.
Rather than grow your turntable budget, get the RP3 with cartridge from your dealer. Everything else follows that. Then ask if you can watch the table being setup. This can be very instructional. At the least it may convince you that you can manage to do it in the future if you change cartridges, or that you can't. Some dealers may not want to install the cartridge in front of you, so if not there are videos "out there " to teach you how to do this.
The Wharfedale Lintons ar not the weakest link in your system, it's the receiver. A couple of options I would suggest:
- Save your pennies until you have enough to purchase a reasonable integrated amplifier or receiver (used if need be).Check with your dealer (a Rega Mira with phono-stage comes to mind-it has a very good one)
- Also look at one of my faves, a Nakamichi STASIS receiver. Nice sounding, easy on the eye, andshould be available in Australia as a used piece. These should be relatively inexpensive (maybe AUD $100 or so. I bought a SR-3 for $40 here...and I keep it as a tuner and a "spare" amp if ever need be). Have any used piece checked out by a shop if it doesn't sound correct to you (or better yet, buy ued pieces from audio dealers). You should try to establish a good relationship with your dealer (where you get the turntable from) and ask if they can let you know if something good comes in on trade...
Once the amplification is completed, then look at some speakers, again used are fine. Or if you get a little ambitious make yourself a pair. Excellent full-range drivers are available. Look at Mark Audio, Fostex, Tangband, and Merrill. All of these should be readily available. Find a friend or family member to help out (if need be) constructing and finishing the enclosures (plans are all over the place, check out planet10's box library for a start. As long a you are not expecting to break your lease by playing too loud, small floor standing ( or some stand mounted) fullrange loudspeakers can be very good and can generate more than enough bass to satisfy the most extreme bassheads. The enclosures themselves, if you or a friend or family member can build them will cost little, but will soung good. Just use good quality materials for the boxes🙂 .
Totally loved this info, thanks heaps.
the DL-103 is off the table, atleast until a new amp that is compatible with it comes into my possesion. And those modifications sound like something i want to avoid until i become more competent and familair with the process and my new, awesome table.
Makes complete sense to me. I know my amp is not very good, but as said previously i plan to replace EVERYTHING in my current system by 2014. The turntable was just part 1 and then the amp will get replaced. So if it means i just get a cart that will get the most out of my system set up for now, an upgraded denon cart to suit the new amp can get tied into that purchase.
I intend on spending another $1000, if not more, on the amp. I would love something with the valve warmth, but that is a debate for another day😛
For now, the budget has been stretched like grandpa's ball sack, and cannot be stretched any further otherwise i may be in the market for not just an amp, but a new wife.
Is the Denon DL110 easy to set up on the RB 303 tone arm, or will it also need some modifications to become affective ( counterweight issues). From memory the Ortofon's connect relatively easily to the Rega arms. I am pretty happy with a selection between these two carts, unless someone has some pretty amazing reason as to why i shouldn't.
The blue looks to be $238 in the retail store i am looking at purchasing from, but it appears they don't stock the Denon DL110- atleast not on their website. What price do they usually go for?
Another store i spoke to said the bronze is a good choice also, but this cart is around$440. Am i better off saving that cash till i get the amp and just persuing the Denon DL 103?
IMHO, you're better off with a MM cartridge at this point. The 2M Bronze has a good rep., and is much more compatible with a Rega arm than the DL-103.
If you're interested in experimenting with a Denon in the future, the DL-103R is the one to try, but you're still looking at an extra ~$400 over the purchase cost for a wood body and ruby cantilever/LC stylus, to unleash it's potential. Then there's the cost of a step-up device.
jeff
The only difference between a 2M Blue and a 2M Bronze is the diamond. vinylkid58 is right, they do have a very good reputation. The higher up on the model range the diamond profile changes, and that's about it. As you get to a more line-profile the more fiddily they get concerning VTA, an adjustment that Rega arms don't adjust very easily. Get a Blue.
The DL-110 has the proper compliance for a Rega arm. They are very easy to set up with their square bodies. They sell for about $140 USD. You can't go wrong with this choice either.
You will need a cartridge regardless, either one will do very well on your rig.
So now you need to figure out what amp and/or preamp you are going to build. This is a DIY audio site, after all. 😀 😀 😀 No reason to buy from a dealer when there are so many good projects out there to build. Plus you get an amazing amount of performance per $.
Also, when it's all said an done, the DL-103 is a DIY project. And that's not bad, but probably not what you are after. Build some amps instead.
The DL-110 has the proper compliance for a Rega arm. They are very easy to set up with their square bodies. They sell for about $140 USD. You can't go wrong with this choice either.
You will need a cartridge regardless, either one will do very well on your rig.
So now you need to figure out what amp and/or preamp you are going to build. This is a DIY audio site, after all. 😀 😀 😀 No reason to buy from a dealer when there are so many good projects out there to build. Plus you get an amazing amount of performance per $.
Also, when it's all said an done, the DL-103 is a DIY project. And that's not bad, but probably not what you are after. Build some amps instead.
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RJ: of comprimises and stuff.
I think the Dl110/RB303/RP3 will be one hell of a good setup...
The DL110 is so cheap that you may be able to get an integrated amp or receiver that includes a decent enough phono stage used and stay well below the suggested $1400 for the TT that you stated earlier. I'm talking about a small stretch to get you something very good to start with, including new speakers (as per my last post). New wives are easier to come by than good audio...
Even a DL110 will not require a new amp though as it is a HO MC, so a MM phono stage will do the job. Too bad your dad hasn't got a nice integrated that he's had since say, 1990 or so... and he's like to upgrade, or friend, or cousin or whoever...
Jeff, a little late to the thread or do you always tag along😉
I think the Dl110/RB303/RP3 will be one hell of a good setup...
The DL110 is so cheap that you may be able to get an integrated amp or receiver that includes a decent enough phono stage used and stay well below the suggested $1400 for the TT that you stated earlier. I'm talking about a small stretch to get you something very good to start with, including new speakers (as per my last post). New wives are easier to come by than good audio...
Even a DL110 will not require a new amp though as it is a HO MC, so a MM phono stage will do the job. Too bad your dad hasn't got a nice integrated that he's had since say, 1990 or so... and he's like to upgrade, or friend, or cousin or whoever...
Jeff, a little late to the thread or do you always tag along😉
But if the integrated was post 1990, there is a very good chance it wouldn't have a phonostage... 😀
6L6,
not necessarily, but one should check before committing, or do as you have and build a phono stage (even a Hagerman Bugle in kit form and the power supply, or keep rechargeable 9 Volt batteries around. As an exercise, I'll check out EPay (Australia) to see what could be available at this snapshot in time as an example.
not necessarily, but one should check before committing, or do as you have and build a phono stage (even a Hagerman Bugle in kit form and the power supply, or keep rechargeable 9 Volt batteries around. As an exercise, I'll check out EPay (Australia) to see what could be available at this snapshot in time as an example.
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