I agree fully with limono when he says that the only person you need to listen to is you! Don't ever listen to anybody but yourself when it comes to this stuff.
My (own, somewhat humble) experience with Debut and Rega (Having sold both and being a Planar 25 owner) is that the Debut will usually sound less engaging and less musical than the comparable Rega. (My opinion.) Also, what makes the Regas sound so good is their modern tonearms. So in all honesty, an old Planar 3 with an RB200 is probably inferior to a new RP1. (Note how everybody was saying 'a recent P3' in the above posts.)
Also, my opinion only, take with a grain of salt - As much as their tables are wonderful, the Rega cartridges are horrible. I have never heard one that I truly liked, and I do own one. (Elys) Moving up in $$ in their cartridges just costs more money.
My opinion, between the 2 tables, the Debut III and the RP1 is to get the Rega. Because I am sure that it can take more cartridge in the future
Ah. That makes sense. I thought he was saying that you needed a really great system before you could hear any differences between TT/cart setups... My apologies.
My (own, somewhat humble) experience with Debut and Rega (Having sold both and being a Planar 25 owner) is that the Debut will usually sound less engaging and less musical than the comparable Rega. (My opinion.) Also, what makes the Regas sound so good is their modern tonearms. So in all honesty, an old Planar 3 with an RB200 is probably inferior to a new RP1. (Note how everybody was saying 'a recent P3' in the above posts.)
Also, my opinion only, take with a grain of salt - As much as their tables are wonderful, the Rega cartridges are horrible. I have never heard one that I truly liked, and I do own one. (Elys) Moving up in $$ in their cartridges just costs more money.
My opinion, between the 2 tables, the Debut III and the RP1 is to get the Rega. Because I am sure that it can take more cartridge in the future
RaoulJuke said:
Ah. That makes sense. I thought he was saying that you needed a really great system before you could hear any differences between TT/cart setups... My apologies.
+1 on the comment re Rega cartridges - my 10yr old P3/RB250* is fitted with a AudioNote branded Goldring - great combination
*FWIW while the latest Rega arms may actually be vastly superior (and priced accordingly) - or just marketing, I'm of the opinion that among used models the RB250 is sonically superior to the more expensive RB300. In fact I had to special order these as two separate pieces to get that combination. Also note while arm wiring may have been upgraded since the late 90's, that the original stock wiring on older arms desperately needs upgrading, and that while Rega's may have revised their attitude of "if you buy our cartridges are perfect, why would you need VTA?" there are also easy to install kits for that as well.
*FWIW while the latest Rega arms may actually be vastly superior (and priced accordingly) - or just marketing, I'm of the opinion that among used models the RB250 is sonically superior to the more expensive RB300. In fact I had to special order these as two separate pieces to get that combination. Also note while arm wiring may have been upgraded since the late 90's, that the original stock wiring on older arms desperately needs upgrading, and that while Rega's may have revised their attitude of "if you buy our cartridges are perfect, why would you need VTA?" there are also easy to install kits for that as well.
Having borrowed a Rega Planar 2 and on the strength of it then bought a RP3 back in about 1980, I can at least confirm that the RP3 is definitely better sounding and that was in the days when both carried the same arm. Not as good as a Linn Sondek, but way better than anything else at the price at that time.
As far as pondering the difference in sound quality between turntables, forget about descriptions of bass, midrange, treble, colouration; yes there are differences in these aspects but the overriding difference is in whether you can follow strands of music or not. That is, with rock music anyway, whether you can hear every note the bass player plays, the bass drum, every inflexion of vocals, guitar, piano etc etc. all separately and not interfering with each other so that if you want to you can follow whichever instrument you want without it being masked by others that may be louder. This is the province of turntables much more so than amplifiers and speakers.
A great thing about the RP3 I found, more so than any other I've heard, is it's wonderful ability to submerge ticks and pops on less than perfect vinyl, and yet the music comes through loud and clear and spacious. It can do 3D depth with a good recording, something the RP2 lacked. Downsides? Nothing at the price, apart from the lack of suspension which can cause problems with LF acoustic feedback if you just plonk it down anywhere. Find a good spot; i.e. not in between the speakers on a boomy sideboard. I used to have mine on a tiny solid shelf bolted to a brick wall well to the side of the speakers where there weren't any boomy room resonance nodes being excited.
As far as pondering the difference in sound quality between turntables, forget about descriptions of bass, midrange, treble, colouration; yes there are differences in these aspects but the overriding difference is in whether you can follow strands of music or not. That is, with rock music anyway, whether you can hear every note the bass player plays, the bass drum, every inflexion of vocals, guitar, piano etc etc. all separately and not interfering with each other so that if you want to you can follow whichever instrument you want without it being masked by others that may be louder. This is the province of turntables much more so than amplifiers and speakers.
A great thing about the RP3 I found, more so than any other I've heard, is it's wonderful ability to submerge ticks and pops on less than perfect vinyl, and yet the music comes through loud and clear and spacious. It can do 3D depth with a good recording, something the RP2 lacked. Downsides? Nothing at the price, apart from the lack of suspension which can cause problems with LF acoustic feedback if you just plonk it down anywhere. Find a good spot; i.e. not in between the speakers on a boomy sideboard. I used to have mine on a tiny solid shelf bolted to a brick wall well to the side of the speakers where there weren't any boomy room resonance nodes being excited.
I have a Rega Planar 3 with a RB300 arm, and believe it or not, it is running a MC Lyra Lydian cartridge (500uV) costing more than the turntable did as new.
It is that good, believe me.
Of course the RB300 was rewired with Cardas (from Incognito Rega Arm Rewire kit), and the Motor was upgraded to the the latest Rega specification.
The only glitch with these UK style belt driven turntables is that they have a slow start, and the speed accuracy may suffer a little, but of course there are plenty of motor and power supply upgrades from 3rd party vendors in UK at least.
That is why many experts, even in UK, do small talk on how good a Technics SL1200 Direct Drive can be, when using a proper arm like an SME309. But here we are talking about a different league and much higher budget...
Here:
Technics SL1200 SL1210 - SL-1210 SL1200 SP-25 SP25 SP-15 modifications
Cheers.
It is that good, believe me.
Of course the RB300 was rewired with Cardas (from Incognito Rega Arm Rewire kit), and the Motor was upgraded to the the latest Rega specification.
The only glitch with these UK style belt driven turntables is that they have a slow start, and the speed accuracy may suffer a little, but of course there are plenty of motor and power supply upgrades from 3rd party vendors in UK at least.
That is why many experts, even in UK, do small talk on how good a Technics SL1200 Direct Drive can be, when using a proper arm like an SME309. But here we are talking about a different league and much higher budget...
Here:
Technics SL1200 SL1210 - SL-1210 SL1200 SP-25 SP25 SP-15 modifications
Cheers.
all good advice...
... I'm always going to ad my 2¢ worth.
Of all the tables I viewed on the Aussie ePay site, I'd take the Sugden BD1 (I have one and love it). Make yourself an arm, buy a reasonable cartridge (as modest as an Ortofon OM 10) and enjoy it. It will provide lots of music for little money.
Else follow everybody's advice and save your pennies. The Garrot P77 I remember hearing was at Dave's place a few years ago on a Planar2/RB200 combo at Dave's (P10's) place. It sounded quite good. The pricing on some of the stuff on the Aussie site seems quite high. What's the domestic voltage, 220V 60Hz?
Do you have a turntable now? Or do your folks or friend (who isn't using it now)?
... I'm always going to ad my 2¢ worth.
Of all the tables I viewed on the Aussie ePay site, I'd take the Sugden BD1 (I have one and love it). Make yourself an arm, buy a reasonable cartridge (as modest as an Ortofon OM 10) and enjoy it. It will provide lots of music for little money.
Else follow everybody's advice and save your pennies. The Garrot P77 I remember hearing was at Dave's place a few years ago on a Planar2/RB200 combo at Dave's (P10's) place. It sounded quite good. The pricing on some of the stuff on the Aussie site seems quite high. What's the domestic voltage, 220V 60Hz?
Do you have a turntable now? Or do your folks or friend (who isn't using it now)?
Well, Today i went to Todd's Hifi in Virginia to purchase a Debut III. Was like a little kid waiting for Santa.
They only had a store model left in the red, but assured me that they look after their floor stock so well it will be A1, and if anything i am better off as it has already been set up for me. I asked if this meant it could be discounted, and they said no because of this. When they went to pack it back into the carton he realized that it was missing the manual,and they also had no screws to secure the motor in transport. He assured me again that this wouldn't be an issue, as this was only essential or necessary when transporting via freight or courier.
I still purchased it and dropped it off home and went to work, didn't even have time to set my new toy up.
I just set it up and found that not only is it missing the manual and the screws for the motor, it was also missing the hinges and connections for the dust cover, and also missing the adapter for the different sized vinyls. Even still, i stayed positive knowing that these would be sorted out for me over time. I also was very disappointed as under the natural light of the my house ( their showroom is full of "mood lighting" ), several scuff and light scrathes started to show on the surface.
Connected it all up, put on "Pet Sounds" to crack the cherry on it..... and to say the least, i'm really disappointed. It's just all over the place, and i feel shattered. I am unsure if it is my sub par amp, or my sub par speakers - but i MUCH preferred the sound off the very average CDC ST 530. I just can't make any sense of it.
There is no warmth, no sense of timing or emotion, no consisteny in the instrumental mix and layering ( the lead guitar riff on the Smashing Pumpkins "Rocket", gets totally drowned out by everything else) - drums sound meek, the bass sounds soulless and flat, the vocals sound too loud compared to everything else & the songs seem to have lost their tempo and beat. i am struggling to find anything positive to say about it except for very slight glimpses of promise
I have 10 times more crackle and pop than ever. The opening track to the Beach Boys "Smile" - "Our Prayer" pops so much i had to check to see if no one was eating Rice bubbles close by. The sound is ALL OVER the place. The vocals sit too high and drown everything out,some instruments which floated beautifully over the melody are now hidden away in a muddy swamp of noise - it feels like the vinyl is playing at a speed that just shows no compassion to the songs, even with priceless tracks like Surf's Up. I don;t know if its just i have "cheap ears", or if I have a absolute dud of a player, as it was a show model. It also struck me later that the cart i got with the player has been sitting in that player for god knows how long, at the free mercy of customers and their snot-ragged children.
Both Pet Sounds & Smile are albums i know amazingly well. I flew to Australia and sat one row off front - dead centre - @ the world premier of the Smile album in London ( Paul McCartney sat about 8 rows behind me and co-writer Van Dyke Parks sat a few inbetween us) - I have listened to both albums millions of times on vinyl, cd, DVD (PS) and even on the dreaded Ipod. I understand each format will have different personalitys that will focus on different sounds and aspects of the recording - but this was a pure nightmare. Lots of underlying crackles, instruments almost impossible to hear - am i insane or something?
Going to call the store tomorrow and have a chat regarding it. As a minimum i am going to AT LEAST ask for them to take the show model back, and order me a brand spanking new one. It was a xmas present part from my wife, but she agreed i would be better off getting a new one since they charged me full price - even if i ended up getting it at easter instead. I think considering they didn't discount it as they claimed to look after it better than it would be sitting in a box and i received the item with no motor lock screws, no manual, no dust cover hinges or connectors, no Singles centre modifier, scuff marks affecting the polished finish & a cart that could have been sitting on it for a year being touched or damaged by the public - i don't think that is an unreasonable response considering
I am very tempted to just ask for a refund, and try my luck with something different, but i am not sure if i am being unreasonable or if they would even enteratin the thought.
Is the real problem not the player - but they way it is set up, my amp & speakers or possibly my untrained cheap ears? I have never owned a high quality sound product such as this before, but i consider myself to have a very keen ear. I can usually break down each instrument and layer of a song when hearing it live, on cd or headphones and an ipod.
What possibly could be wrong with it to be getting such appalling results??? The thing that most hurt is the absolute muddled mess the mix seemed to feel like - entire layers seem lost, while the lead vocals pelt out in a tinny assault - as the bass has not guts at all one second, and the next seems to be od'ing on itself with a threating intrusive vibration threatening to tear my speakers.
Some advice would be great to how i should handle this. I have already packed it back into the box as i was so emotional let down i just needed the moment to be over, and plugged my $20 CDC back in and listened to both albums again. As soon as i did, the crakles were gone and layers previously lost, jumped back out and danced around my living room.
What the hell should i do, and what the heck has gone so tragically wrong???🙁
They only had a store model left in the red, but assured me that they look after their floor stock so well it will be A1, and if anything i am better off as it has already been set up for me. I asked if this meant it could be discounted, and they said no because of this. When they went to pack it back into the carton he realized that it was missing the manual,and they also had no screws to secure the motor in transport. He assured me again that this wouldn't be an issue, as this was only essential or necessary when transporting via freight or courier.
I still purchased it and dropped it off home and went to work, didn't even have time to set my new toy up.
I just set it up and found that not only is it missing the manual and the screws for the motor, it was also missing the hinges and connections for the dust cover, and also missing the adapter for the different sized vinyls. Even still, i stayed positive knowing that these would be sorted out for me over time. I also was very disappointed as under the natural light of the my house ( their showroom is full of "mood lighting" ), several scuff and light scrathes started to show on the surface.
Connected it all up, put on "Pet Sounds" to crack the cherry on it..... and to say the least, i'm really disappointed. It's just all over the place, and i feel shattered. I am unsure if it is my sub par amp, or my sub par speakers - but i MUCH preferred the sound off the very average CDC ST 530. I just can't make any sense of it.
There is no warmth, no sense of timing or emotion, no consisteny in the instrumental mix and layering ( the lead guitar riff on the Smashing Pumpkins "Rocket", gets totally drowned out by everything else) - drums sound meek, the bass sounds soulless and flat, the vocals sound too loud compared to everything else & the songs seem to have lost their tempo and beat. i am struggling to find anything positive to say about it except for very slight glimpses of promise
I have 10 times more crackle and pop than ever. The opening track to the Beach Boys "Smile" - "Our Prayer" pops so much i had to check to see if no one was eating Rice bubbles close by. The sound is ALL OVER the place. The vocals sit too high and drown everything out,some instruments which floated beautifully over the melody are now hidden away in a muddy swamp of noise - it feels like the vinyl is playing at a speed that just shows no compassion to the songs, even with priceless tracks like Surf's Up. I don;t know if its just i have "cheap ears", or if I have a absolute dud of a player, as it was a show model. It also struck me later that the cart i got with the player has been sitting in that player for god knows how long, at the free mercy of customers and their snot-ragged children.
Both Pet Sounds & Smile are albums i know amazingly well. I flew to Australia and sat one row off front - dead centre - @ the world premier of the Smile album in London ( Paul McCartney sat about 8 rows behind me and co-writer Van Dyke Parks sat a few inbetween us) - I have listened to both albums millions of times on vinyl, cd, DVD (PS) and even on the dreaded Ipod. I understand each format will have different personalitys that will focus on different sounds and aspects of the recording - but this was a pure nightmare. Lots of underlying crackles, instruments almost impossible to hear - am i insane or something?
Going to call the store tomorrow and have a chat regarding it. As a minimum i am going to AT LEAST ask for them to take the show model back, and order me a brand spanking new one. It was a xmas present part from my wife, but she agreed i would be better off getting a new one since they charged me full price - even if i ended up getting it at easter instead. I think considering they didn't discount it as they claimed to look after it better than it would be sitting in a box and i received the item with no motor lock screws, no manual, no dust cover hinges or connectors, no Singles centre modifier, scuff marks affecting the polished finish & a cart that could have been sitting on it for a year being touched or damaged by the public - i don't think that is an unreasonable response considering
I am very tempted to just ask for a refund, and try my luck with something different, but i am not sure if i am being unreasonable or if they would even enteratin the thought.
Is the real problem not the player - but they way it is set up, my amp & speakers or possibly my untrained cheap ears? I have never owned a high quality sound product such as this before, but i consider myself to have a very keen ear. I can usually break down each instrument and layer of a song when hearing it live, on cd or headphones and an ipod.
What possibly could be wrong with it to be getting such appalling results??? The thing that most hurt is the absolute muddled mess the mix seemed to feel like - entire layers seem lost, while the lead vocals pelt out in a tinny assault - as the bass has not guts at all one second, and the next seems to be od'ing on itself with a threating intrusive vibration threatening to tear my speakers.
Some advice would be great to how i should handle this. I have already packed it back into the box as i was so emotional let down i just needed the moment to be over, and plugged my $20 CDC back in and listened to both albums again. As soon as i did, the crakles were gone and layers previously lost, jumped back out and danced around my living room.
What the hell should i do, and what the heck has gone so tragically wrong???🙁
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I know my previous post was quite long, just very very upset with the results of it compared to my old piece of junk. Also missing nearly every additional extra upset me too.
Would love to hear what people think might be wrong with it. I fail to believe it is the player to be honest. Surely it must be something specific to this one - be it the cart is damaged, not set properley or something.
I am pretty sure i am just going to request brand new replacement as i paid the price of a brand new player with no discounts. Which is fair. I am sure this player must definitely be better than the ST530 i had
Would love to hear what people think might be wrong with it. I fail to believe it is the player to be honest. Surely it must be something specific to this one - be it the cart is damaged, not set properley or something.
I am pretty sure i am just going to request brand new replacement as i paid the price of a brand new player with no discounts. Which is fair. I am sure this player must definitely be better than the ST530 i had
Welcome in audiophile hell 😉 Demo models are usually discounted (sometimes heavily) in US. That they sold you incomplete table in used condition is a sign of disrespect for the costumer and a bad service in times when retail of audioin stores is dwindling. I'd give them hell. Now ,generaly modern cartridges and styluses are more "resolving" and have more complicated shapes allowing them to ride deeper into records grooves which often (not always)results in more info but also more surface noise , especially if record was played many times with unknown quality player and was not cleaned. I would take the table back along with a few records you know so well and play them in the store.
The chances are that set up is wrong or you need to buy different cartridge , maybe older Shure, Stanton , ADC . They are not expensive and are great with rock music. Best of luck.
The chances are that set up is wrong or you need to buy different cartridge , maybe older Shure, Stanton , ADC . They are not expensive and are great with rock music. Best of luck.
Hmmm, no discount and problems?
RaoulJuke: sorry you've had a bad expereince . As highly as the Project Debut have been reviewed (based on it being an "entry level" turntable), something must be horribly wrong. I know when I sold Revolver (which were made in the same factory that became Pro-ject), the arms had to be installed and if done incorrectly the tables obviously would sound bad.
If you paid AUD $499 for it, I'd ask (politely) for a refund (or if purchased on your credit card have them reverse the charge). Then I would seek out another local retailer (preferably a Rega dealer) and purchase Rega's plug and forget about RP1. It too can be upgraded to a very high standard at some later date but will give you a solid foundation to begin with.
The Australian distributor's webpage (Synergyaudio) allows you to input your postal code (4digits) into it's "dealer locator". So finding a Rega dealer should be easy enough, but Brisbane is pretty much a short drive away, isn't it? Here's one: living sound+vision. Click on the link to get their address and a phone number. They say over the phone service/advice is available. (I can't recommend them as I don't know anything about them, but they are in your neck-of-the-woods). $50 more for a TT from Rega vs the Project is a no-brainer (I know it's easy for me to spend your money, but that $50 can mean the difference between good and great service). They sell Pro-ject as well, so perhaps you can get better service, but the same turntable.
Hope that helps. Remember to thank the missus for the great gift. 😉
RaoulJuke: sorry you've had a bad expereince . As highly as the Project Debut have been reviewed (based on it being an "entry level" turntable), something must be horribly wrong. I know when I sold Revolver (which were made in the same factory that became Pro-ject), the arms had to be installed and if done incorrectly the tables obviously would sound bad.
If you paid AUD $499 for it, I'd ask (politely) for a refund (or if purchased on your credit card have them reverse the charge). Then I would seek out another local retailer (preferably a Rega dealer) and purchase Rega's plug and forget about RP1. It too can be upgraded to a very high standard at some later date but will give you a solid foundation to begin with.
The Australian distributor's webpage (Synergyaudio) allows you to input your postal code (4digits) into it's "dealer locator". So finding a Rega dealer should be easy enough, but Brisbane is pretty much a short drive away, isn't it? Here's one: living sound+vision. Click on the link to get their address and a phone number. They say over the phone service/advice is available. (I can't recommend them as I don't know anything about them, but they are in your neck-of-the-woods). $50 more for a TT from Rega vs the Project is a no-brainer (I know it's easy for me to spend your money, but that $50 can mean the difference between good and great service). They sell Pro-ject as well, so perhaps you can get better service, but the same turntable.
Hope that helps. Remember to thank the missus for the great gift. 😉
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I would just take the thing back for a full refund. While the missing parts and other issues are disappointing I am not too surprised at the end result. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that your old deck is actually better than the Debut 3.. Any 25yr old $150 deck in good shape is probably competitive with today's new units costing 3 - 4X as much..
I didn't want to say it but it came trough my mind too. I couldn't google much on that old table. I just went trough a torture of listening to horrid higher end set up and didn't have guts to fully express myself either . It's much easier to troll online ekh😀
definitely expected ( and deserved ) a bit of 'told you so" action. Most of you tried to guide me towards the "less attractive to look" at Rega 2nd hand sets, but i honestly didn't think the difference would be that much. I had read around 10 reviews on the Debut III online and all of them were very complementry and positive. more times than not they rated it favourbaly against the P1, and even the older P2-3 if the tonearms was a 200. I just can't understand how they could be talking about the same machine i have at home at the moment.
I'm guessing there is something wrong with the set up somewhere, surely it can't be looking for that type of sound. It had moments where it sounded more pure, but it was more the mix that drove me nuts. With albums like Pet Sounds & Smile, these albums are the perfection they are due to the layers of each part - with each instrument off on its own trip. With this table, you don't seem to have a choice of which instrument you want to follow - its all about the vocal and the music sits plainly behind it.
I think i will TRY for a refund, but i dunno - in Australia those come as often as hens teeth. As a minimum considering the price and the other issues, them getting me a brand new machine in ( in a decent time frame ) is the back up plan. If they say it will take weeks / months to get one in, then i am going to push for a refund hard.
To purchase an item at its "New" price and receive it with scuff marks, and missing several bits is totally unacceptable for someone trying to pass themselves off as "high end" -its unacceptable for any store despite its apparent rank and status. Even if the sound of the table itself is not what i hoped for, those issues are pretty poor form
I'm guessing there is something wrong with the set up somewhere, surely it can't be looking for that type of sound. It had moments where it sounded more pure, but it was more the mix that drove me nuts. With albums like Pet Sounds & Smile, these albums are the perfection they are due to the layers of each part - with each instrument off on its own trip. With this table, you don't seem to have a choice of which instrument you want to follow - its all about the vocal and the music sits plainly behind it.
I think i will TRY for a refund, but i dunno - in Australia those come as often as hens teeth. As a minimum considering the price and the other issues, them getting me a brand new machine in ( in a decent time frame ) is the back up plan. If they say it will take weeks / months to get one in, then i am going to push for a refund hard.
To purchase an item at its "New" price and receive it with scuff marks, and missing several bits is totally unacceptable for someone trying to pass themselves off as "high end" -its unacceptable for any store despite its apparent rank and status. Even if the sound of the table itself is not what i hoped for, those issues are pretty poor form
Hi Raoul,
Take it back and just ask the money back. End of story on that one.
That is what I would do. I had my fair share of blind buying in the past, just based on magazine reviews, with bad experiences most of the time.
May I remind the basic rules when buying turntables:
1. Don't buy without listening first; if possible, do it at home (well, You did it!);
2. Cheap Turntables are, well, just basic sound. The mechanics engineering involved in the system must be of high quality, and this has a price on it.
3. So, a basic low cost turntables will have compromises here and there; choose the ones that are acceptable to You.
4. Whatever You do, make sure your preamplifier is good enough for the Cartridge to be used; cartridges have the most influence in the final sound, but they depend on the preamp. So, take your preamp with you to the store and listen the turntable/cartridge with it.
5. A good MM cartridge is expensive, but a good MC cartridge must be really expensive or else it will not beat a MM one. And a MC cartridge requires a really good preamp to make it justice.
6. The Arm compliance must be adequate for the chosen cartridge. So, if you don't know how to do it, use a good retailer to do it for You.
Or just go for a good REGA P3 / RB300 / ELYS combination (audit first!).
7. The Arm / Cartridge adjustments ( vertical tracking angle, azimuth, zenith, and weight adjustments) must be correctly done or else You may end up experiencing similar results as the ones You described.
8. Surface noise from records are very hard to minimize, especially if they worn by bad cartridge stylus.
The shape of the stylus can help to reduce the amount of perceived noise, but it will no cure it. I like the line contact designs, like the Lyra Lydian, as they resolve more detail avoiding the region in the groove where cracks made by previous cartridges stylus can be found.
Cheers,
Take it back and just ask the money back. End of story on that one.
That is what I would do. I had my fair share of blind buying in the past, just based on magazine reviews, with bad experiences most of the time.
May I remind the basic rules when buying turntables:
1. Don't buy without listening first; if possible, do it at home (well, You did it!);
2. Cheap Turntables are, well, just basic sound. The mechanics engineering involved in the system must be of high quality, and this has a price on it.
3. So, a basic low cost turntables will have compromises here and there; choose the ones that are acceptable to You.
4. Whatever You do, make sure your preamplifier is good enough for the Cartridge to be used; cartridges have the most influence in the final sound, but they depend on the preamp. So, take your preamp with you to the store and listen the turntable/cartridge with it.
5. A good MM cartridge is expensive, but a good MC cartridge must be really expensive or else it will not beat a MM one. And a MC cartridge requires a really good preamp to make it justice.
6. The Arm compliance must be adequate for the chosen cartridge. So, if you don't know how to do it, use a good retailer to do it for You.
Or just go for a good REGA P3 / RB300 / ELYS combination (audit first!).
7. The Arm / Cartridge adjustments ( vertical tracking angle, azimuth, zenith, and weight adjustments) must be correctly done or else You may end up experiencing similar results as the ones You described.
8. Surface noise from records are very hard to minimize, especially if they worn by bad cartridge stylus.
The shape of the stylus can help to reduce the amount of perceived noise, but it will no cure it. I like the line contact designs, like the Lyra Lydian, as they resolve more detail avoiding the region in the groove where cracks made by previous cartridges stylus can be found.
Cheers,
That's pretty much the Debut III in a nutshell. A friend here bought a used Debut III a couple of years ago, he wasn't enjoying his cd player/dac combo, and wanted to give vinyl a try. It didn't take him long to realize what a POS this table is, and that he wanted something better. After going thru several tables (the P3 was one), he ended up getting an incredible deal on a late 80's LP12/Ekos/Lingo/Arkiv combo.
This isn't unusual in today's market. It's all about sales, and getting stuff out the door, not about people actually being happy with a purchase. And in most stores, turntables are more of a curiosity, and a nuisance to setup.
jeff
Ok, so i rang the place and told them about the issues and requested a refund. They said they can't do this but were willing to offer me $50 for the issues, or i can keep the amount as credit in the store - which in no uncertain terms, i flatly refused. $50 is nothing when compromising a selling point of a purchase - and credit in a store like that is meaningless - its like getting a credit at a car dealer - sure, i'll use it the next time i decide to buy a one off item.
I had a rather heated conversation with the manager who i found rather obnoxious ( sure he thinks the same back ), which ended with me telling him i'll just come down to the store today and talk to someone. He told me "not to bother" as no one will be in the store today who can issue a refund ( what business runs without someone being instore to issue and authorize a refund - i have no idea ). He then rudely hanged up on me.
As soon as i got off the phone, i called consumer affairs re where i would stand and i felt pretty assured that i would have to be given a refund - but only after a delayed period of time and a annoying fight. I then received a text message on my phone from the manager saying he had decided to give me a refund and to drop it off today, with my bank details. I have done this, and got my refund - so i am happy with that. Lesson learned.
So now, back in the market with a little experience under my belt. Don't think i will rush into anything now - wont happen before Christmas, but oh well.
Thinking now of looking at a Rega 3, seems they are the popular choice by most. If i can get one with a RB250 or better arm and a quality cart - then i will be willing to push the budget up to around $800 or so. I might also have a think about the Technics 1200 stuff, as a they seem to be well regarded also.
If an extra $250 means that much, then i'll extend out.
Won't be the very sexy red though, but one thing i have learned from this is - it doesn't matter how sexy they are, if they can't perform in the good stuff - your better off with going without, or just staying with the cheap and nasty thing you have already got.
Still very bummed though, thought i had just broken through with a new pride & joy
I had a rather heated conversation with the manager who i found rather obnoxious ( sure he thinks the same back ), which ended with me telling him i'll just come down to the store today and talk to someone. He told me "not to bother" as no one will be in the store today who can issue a refund ( what business runs without someone being instore to issue and authorize a refund - i have no idea ). He then rudely hanged up on me.
As soon as i got off the phone, i called consumer affairs re where i would stand and i felt pretty assured that i would have to be given a refund - but only after a delayed period of time and a annoying fight. I then received a text message on my phone from the manager saying he had decided to give me a refund and to drop it off today, with my bank details. I have done this, and got my refund - so i am happy with that. Lesson learned.
So now, back in the market with a little experience under my belt. Don't think i will rush into anything now - wont happen before Christmas, but oh well.
Thinking now of looking at a Rega 3, seems they are the popular choice by most. If i can get one with a RB250 or better arm and a quality cart - then i will be willing to push the budget up to around $800 or so. I might also have a think about the Technics 1200 stuff, as a they seem to be well regarded also.
If an extra $250 means that much, then i'll extend out.
Won't be the very sexy red though, but one thing i have learned from this is - it doesn't matter how sexy they are, if they can't perform in the good stuff - your better off with going without, or just staying with the cheap and nasty thing you have already got.
Still very bummed though, thought i had just broken through with a new pride & joy
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You're learning, with the increased budget there may be some other possibilities to consider. Certainly an RB-250 arm would be a great choice as there are endless worthwhile upgrades for it.
The one thing i have learned about this is i want a player that opens the door on each layer of the song, not flatten them out into one track more. Do the Rega's give this sort of response?
What other tables should i look at with a slight extended budget now? Does anyone also recommend the Technics?
Thanks for the great advice. I am hoping with my new budget i can get a nice R3 with a 250 or 300 arm - $800 is about what i got though so not sure if i can make that happen with that budget
Kevin, as sensible as usual.
This makes good sense to me.
I really do think if RJ can get hold of a Sugden BD1 as linked in my earlier post (yesterday I think), and mount a decent arm on it with a modern cartridge or the one from the CEC, he'd have something The great thing about the Sugden is that it responds really well to a cutting board plinth upgrade. (I paid CAD $14 for my cutting board). A little bit of 1" or 1-1/2" square aluminum tubing and some wooden feet and you're set for much less than the cost of the Rega or the Pro-ject. It can be a lot cheaper if you make your own Altmann tonearm or similar. I'd put my Sugden re-plinth/219 tonearm against much more expensive tables and arms. It is at least in the same league as my Oracle Alex MkII/SME 309 combination. And I have way less than CAD $100 (about AUD $105), not including a cartridge. A $50 Ortofon OM10 or similar or whatever you already have and a real humdinger for very little money.
RJ: With the increased budget you should be able to get a good sounding turntable. But I still feel an old table re-plinthed with a good arm and a few accessories can cream the Planar3. If you don't want to make your own arm a Rega RB251 with some upgrades, could cost you in the AUD $500. Add a good Sugden or similar turntable, and a re-plinth, and a reasonable cartridge and I feel you could easily beat a RP3 (newest version). My tonearm on my Oracle sells for CAD $2650 new, which is what I paid for it. I am sure a new RP3 with a RB251 and upgrades could certainly compete with my old Oracle. And there is a huge after-market for the improvements (Origin Live, JA Michelle, etc). Your AUD $800 budget could even land you (as Jeff pointed out) a Linn LP12 or similar, if you are patient. Except Linns are notorious for being a little tough to tune and can be expensive to modify.
I wish you the best of luck in your new-found endeavours.
Regarding the rest of your equipment, trust your ears. Yes a good MC can be very expensive, but I've found Grado cartridges to be very good for the money (they are moving iron ), and I do like the Ortofon OM10 (or OM20/OM30) sound. So depending on the rest of your equipment, you may end up having to upgrade all of that as well, but that can occur over aperiod of time, if needed. (a list might help here to see what you have and whether they are of sufficient quality. If not save your nickels and dimes and buy when you have a suitable amount of cash. The Rega Mura (original) could be a real score at or near AUD $600, or an Audiolab 8000A, or a Sugden A21...all great integrated amps with very good phono stages. The rest such as speakers or cd players or whatever else can always be improved upon. But please start "at the source". You cannot go wrong following the Linn mantra: turntable; arm; cartridge; amp speakers; cables (in this order). Or if not building an analog system: source; amp; speakers; cables
This makes good sense to me.
I really do think if RJ can get hold of a Sugden BD1 as linked in my earlier post (yesterday I think), and mount a decent arm on it with a modern cartridge or the one from the CEC, he'd have something The great thing about the Sugden is that it responds really well to a cutting board plinth upgrade. (I paid CAD $14 for my cutting board). A little bit of 1" or 1-1/2" square aluminum tubing and some wooden feet and you're set for much less than the cost of the Rega or the Pro-ject. It can be a lot cheaper if you make your own Altmann tonearm or similar. I'd put my Sugden re-plinth/219 tonearm against much more expensive tables and arms. It is at least in the same league as my Oracle Alex MkII/SME 309 combination. And I have way less than CAD $100 (about AUD $105), not including a cartridge. A $50 Ortofon OM10 or similar or whatever you already have and a real humdinger for very little money.
RJ: With the increased budget you should be able to get a good sounding turntable. But I still feel an old table re-plinthed with a good arm and a few accessories can cream the Planar3. If you don't want to make your own arm a Rega RB251 with some upgrades, could cost you in the AUD $500. Add a good Sugden or similar turntable, and a re-plinth, and a reasonable cartridge and I feel you could easily beat a RP3 (newest version). My tonearm on my Oracle sells for CAD $2650 new, which is what I paid for it. I am sure a new RP3 with a RB251 and upgrades could certainly compete with my old Oracle. And there is a huge after-market for the improvements (Origin Live, JA Michelle, etc). Your AUD $800 budget could even land you (as Jeff pointed out) a Linn LP12 or similar, if you are patient. Except Linns are notorious for being a little tough to tune and can be expensive to modify.
I wish you the best of luck in your new-found endeavours.
Regarding the rest of your equipment, trust your ears. Yes a good MC can be very expensive, but I've found Grado cartridges to be very good for the money (they are moving iron ), and I do like the Ortofon OM10 (or OM20/OM30) sound. So depending on the rest of your equipment, you may end up having to upgrade all of that as well, but that can occur over aperiod of time, if needed. (a list might help here to see what you have and whether they are of sufficient quality. If not save your nickels and dimes and buy when you have a suitable amount of cash. The Rega Mura (original) could be a real score at or near AUD $600, or an Audiolab 8000A, or a Sugden A21...all great integrated amps with very good phono stages. The rest such as speakers or cd players or whatever else can always be improved upon. But please start "at the source". You cannot go wrong following the Linn mantra: turntable; arm; cartridge; amp speakers; cables (in this order). Or if not building an analog system: source; amp; speakers; cables
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